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kawisixer01

Pencil whipped repack

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I have a dilema. I went to a major drop zone over the summer for a boogie. My reserve expired on the day I was there to jump. I argued that it expired at midnight that day but they insisted I get a re-pack. So I took it over to the riggers loft and paid for a rush re-pack. two and half hours later I finally get my rig back. fast forward to the present. That repack expired so I took my rig in to my home drop zone and my usual rigger. i picked up my rig today and he asks me about the last repack and who did it, where ect. He then stated that the guy at the boogie did not repack my reserve. That he does certain things in a certain way and he could outright tell that the guy at the boogie had simply threw his seal on the reserve pin and pencil whipped it.
I am still fairly new to the sport so i am not sure what "different things" my rigger does but I am sure that he can tell his pack jobs from anothers and he has my utmost trust. I am inclined to call down to the rigger loft at the boogie and demand my money back or I will call the FAA. I am also inclined just to call the FAA and complain no matter what. Anyone ever have an experience like this and what did you do? What would any of you do in this situation? i can't help but feel scammed and it is especially disappointing to be scammed by people in what i consider a small community of people. I guess if the rigger from the boogie was that big of a hack to do something like that I guess I should be glad he didn't repack it and I was jumping on MY riggers pack job[:/]

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By no means am I an expert on any aspect of this sport but i firmly believe that short cuts and skydiving don't mix. I also believe that a person paid to do a job should do the job. It may be a hard allegation to prove. It seems it would be your riggers word against the boogies rigger. What does your rigger suggest?


I may be getting old but I got to see all the cool bands.

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If it were me, personally, *I* wouldn't do anything - either calling the FAA or calling the other rigger (and/or the loft he works for). Right now, all you have to go on is your rigger's opinion that the rig was pencil-whipped. You're not a rigger, nor did you inspect the rig so you've got zero credibility to be accusing anyone of anything.

If your rigger is willing to get involved, I'd think the appropriate place to start would be having your rigger call the other rigger expressing his concerns and the "evidence" he has that the rig was pencil-whipped, and have him offer the rigger a chance to do the right thing by refunding you for the repack you paid for but didn't get.

But ultimately, this is going to come down to a case of one rigger's word vs. another and there may not be any neat and clean resolution. Lesson learned - make sure your rig's in date, and know the DZ's rules about boogies, in particular (lots of DZs expect a rig to be in date for the entire boogie, not just the first day, even if you only plan to stay for one day).
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

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Whenever I do a repack I open it very carefully and look at how the last job was done. I've seen a few neat little tricks others have used and added them to my repertoire. If a rigger were so inclined I suppose a small piece of paper, similar to a fortune cookie could be placed in the tail that said "last packed by ...". If that comes out after repacking someone elses repack then it's a smoking gun.

I think the best thing to do is just give the rigger a call and tell them that your rigger feels it was pencil packed. See what the response is but leave it at that. You might otherwise be shooting an innocent person. If it was pencil packed then they'll probably think twice about doing it again.

-Michael

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The FAA can't/won't do anything because there is no real evidence. When this has been a known problem with a particular rigger they have done a controlled sting where they knew what it looked like inside before and opened it under controlled conditions after.

Going somewhere you don't know, pull it. And pull it for practice when you have time. Preferable in a hanging harness.

But, I prefer to inspect the reserve before it's opened, watch the reserve pilot launch, and see how it's packed. Doing this lead me to find an issue with the Quasars that led to the recall. So, please ask your regular rigger if he wants to see it pulled before you pull it at home.

You also need to take care not to damage anything if you pull it at home and then transport it to your rigger.
I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

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I'd have your rigger call the other rigger and discuss the issue.

It may be that your rigger simply recognized the pack job as his own, and there is no evidence left that the last rigger didn't open it up.

I'll throw another potential piece of the puzzle into the mix. Your profile says your reserve is a PD 150. PD has a label on the tail of the canopy with boxes that are supposed to be filled out with a slash or "X" at each repack so the owner/riggers can keep track of how many repacks have been done, and how many uses the reserve has had. Many riggers add a date or other marking in that box, so it's quite possible your rigger found a new repack date on the card, and his old date on the canopy. Check with your rigger again and see what gives him the idea the other rigger didn't do the promised work.

In any event, I'd have your rigger do the initial follow-up, if he is willing, and not involve the FAA.
Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

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Personally, it seems a little unfair for the rigger to involve you at this point. He's putting you in a position to believe one rigger or another and be powerless to do anything about it. It's just words at this point, no real proof of anything. Of course, I also have a policy to distrust riggers that bash other riggers' work.

If I was the rigger and suspected a pencil pack on my job, I'd be on the phone with the previous rigger to discuss the situation and only if it was resolved that way first, let the owner know what happened, what I did about it, and how the situation was fixed, but that's just me.

Yes, every rigger packs a little bit differently, just like we all have different handwriting... that little individual 'look' to a pack job. I love looking at other riggers' work, because I always learn something from it. But I also always have the people I pack for pull handles... it's good practice for them, gives them faith in their gear, and they know for certain there's no pencil packing from me.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

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I saw an incedent like this not to long ago. At this point I think I've put to gather all the peaces of the puzzle and know what really happened. I wont bore you with all the details but it was resolved with out any one being shot.

I beleave I know how the acusing party came to there conclusions. The short version of the story is I do not beleave the guy was guilty as charged. Although he had been a rigger for awhile he had not been very active before he wound up in this position. He had not really developed a "stile" of his own but he was getting good enough that he could do a fair job of copying the packjobs that were in there. That and a some what abreveated inspection, he didn't always hang them up and shake them all the way out, led to these people deciding that he was a scumbag pencil whipper.

All of this was complicated by the fact that all of these people were constantly bumping heads. They just did not mesh with each other. The whole thing was escalating in to nothing short of a blood fewd. In the end it pretty much calmed down.

What I'm trying to say here is that "Fold Ferensics" is not as exact of a science as you might think. First off your rigger need to be carefull about throwing out this kind of acusation. Second, you are not the person that he needs to be making this acusation to. He needs to be speeking directly to that rigger. It's really bad form to bad mouth other riggers to skydivers. There is already way to much gear fear out there. Bashing other riggers is not acceptable. And doing it in a case like this that is far from conclusive is down right wrong. He may suspect but I don't think he can know this for sure. If he thinks there is an issue he need to take it up with the other rigger.

The FAA is not an acceptable place to take this. YOU DO NOT GO TO THE FAA. There are a lot of reasons for this. That is such an extream last resort that it's not even worth descussing. There are whole... not cans, not buckets, we're talking barols of worms. There are consiquences there that you can't even imagion. Nobody wants to go there.

If you really think you've been ripped off, then fine, go confront him. But I would want to have more evedence in my hand. Your rigger means well but I think his case might be scetchy.

Lee
Lee
lee@velocitysportswear.com
www.velocitysportswear.com

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Your regular rigger should have easily been able to tell who did the last repack and where if the data card was still in the pocket. He shouldn't have to ask you. I agree that he should have talked to the other rigger before telling you about it.

If I suspected someone else put their seal on my packjob, I would take it up personally with that rigger. But it would be a hard thing to prove unless you planted a telltale or something like that and it's your word against his. I don't think that a telltale is usually necessary unless it's an FAA response to a complaint as I think most riggers are good and ethical, but maybe I'm being naive as I recently got my rigging ticket. I probably wouldn't tell my customer unless it is a safety issue and the other rigger doesn't care. I don't feel that going to the FAA is going to help anything.

Do pull your handles, but ask your rigger first and do it with him/her around. If you really don't trust the guy, you could pull it all the way out (or use it in the sky), but you should go to a rigger you can trust.

I also use a stamp with my seal and FAA arimen number to discourage customers from pencil packing with my seal intact. Of course that does nothing to stop determined riggers from pencil packing and resealing a rig. I've even heard of riggers who charge a lower price for a pencil pack over a full I&R.

To counter your argument for arguments sake, you could say you got your 120 days and your rush boogie "packjob", so you got your moneys worth. Keep track of your due date, get it repacked at least a day before it's due and you need it. I think there's at least one thread on here arguing about whether the 120th day of a packjob is legal to jump (I think it is). Also the other rigger could argue that there's only one way to pack a rig - according to the manufacturers instructions.
BASE 1224, Senior Parachute Rigger, CPL ASEL IA, AGI, IGI
USPA Coach & UPT Tandem Instructor, PRO, Altimaster Field Support Representative

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"I" would shut up and jump. You got to jump at a boogie when your rig was out of date. You have no real evidence that the dz rigger didn't do the work, and your own rigger has now certified the rig as airworthy for another 120 days. What is this dilemma you talk about :P

Let it go dude (and make sure that your rig is in date next time) ;)
Pete Draper,

Just because my life plan is written on the back of a Hooter's Napkin, it's still a life plan.... right?

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My mistake I accidentally hit this button labeled "5" which low and behold is located directly right next to the button labeled "6". I'll try not to let it happen again....[:/] Sorry i didn't know I was gonna get shaken down on my typing skill for using this site to seek other like minded people's advice on something I take serious issue with. Thanks to everyone who has stuck to topic and given relavant and insightful advice I really do appreciate it.

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:)
I can see that your reserve is a PR160.

First I would give the credit that the repack was done.

If your rigger said that he got some ??? ask your rigger to check if the last box on the tail label was marked with an " / "

It must be marked by PD the mfg. instructions for the packing / jumping history of the PR.

:( I found PR's that were not marked.

If it was not marked you can call the loft / other rigger & asked why it was not marked or let your rigger do that.

You might get all kind of answers but you have a point to start with.

Do not attack do it nice - he / she might just forgot to do that.

Tip: When you go to a boogie keep your reserve in date - pack it few days before at your home rigger.

Your reserve is valid up to 120 days but could be done at 110 days as well.

Be Safe !!!

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"I" would shut up and jump. You got to jump at a boogie when your rig was out of date. You have no real evidence that the dz rigger didn't do the work, and your own rigger has now certified the rig as airworthy for another 120 days. What is this dilemma you talk about :P

Let it go dude (and make sure that your rig is in date next time) ;)



Something else to think about - if the 'boogie rigger' did pencil pack it - that means you still have your regular rigger's pack job on your back. The only difference is that the dummy who pencil whipped (if indeed he/she did) has now assumed the responsibility for any mistakes in there (if any are there). The cost of the repack - even with the rush fee - is no where near enough money for me to assume that when someone brings me a rig for repack.

Jump
Scars remind us that the past is real

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Following that logic, Icarus shifted the check box panel to farther forward/deeper in the pack job to discourage lazy riggers from merely checking the box without removing the canopy from the bag.

Icarus is trying to idiot-proof the inspection process ... too bad God keeps inventing more clever idiots.
Tee!
Hee!

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Something else to think about - if the 'boogie rigger' did pencil pack it - that means you still have your regular rigger's pack job on your back.



Something else to think about: the pack job doesn't turn into a pumpkin just because it's past midnight. If a "rigger" is willing to pencil-pack, you are probably safer with his pencil-pack than you are with his real pack.

Mark

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Something else to think about - if the 'boogie rigger' did pencil pack it - that means you still have your regular rigger's pack job on your back.



Something else to think about: the pack job doesn't turn into a pumpkin just because it's past midnight. If a "rigger" is willing to pencil-pack, you are probably safer with his pencil-pack than you are with his real pack.

Mark



thats what I meant....;)
Scars remind us that the past is real

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"If I was the rigger and suspected a pencil pack on my job, I'd be on the phone with the previous rigger to discuss the situation and only if it was resolved that way first, let the owner know what happened, what I did about it, and how the situation was fixed, ..."

.....................................................................

That is the first step - in a three step process - recommended by the Parachute Industry Association.

PIA recommends phoning the offending rigger first. Most of the time, he/she will be embarrassed, change his ways and that will be the end of the problem.
Telling the customer too early in the process will only scare them.

The second stage is only used if the offending rigger repeats a mistake or tells you to "F*&K OFF!" Then PIA recommends collecting photographs, photo-copies and witness statements.

Only the third step - reserved for gross negligence and repeated mistakes - involves the Federal Aviation Administration. Collect a large stack of photographs, photo-copies, and witness statements and present them to the FAA. Try to avoid dealing directly with an FAA pencil-pusher. They may be nice guys, but few of them are riggers and you will waste many hours trying to explain industry standards.
Far wiser to present your evidence to the local FAA Designated Parachute Rigger Examiner.

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I've always been told that karma plays a huge role in skydiving. So if you lie about something, it will come back to bite you in the butt. In this case, all I can say is to expect many bad things to occur to this rigger because of what he did ;)

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