Problem with Pilot canopies??????

[bigway 4]

You were watching a packer to get pointers on packingyour canopy a bit neater? You guys in Hawaii must really look after your packers

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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[erdnarob 1]

I am pretty sure that the hard opening on the PILOT canopy is not related with the canopy itself since there are many factors contributing to the forces involved during a deployment. Here is a excerpt of my post on TRAINING AND SAFETY which can be found on this forum:

<<<1) position of the jumper at pull time, after pull resume your free fall position using a reverse arch to slow down
2) size, type of fabric and shape of the pilot chute
3) the type of canopy, type of fabric used, type of lines used (Dacron lines are more "elastic" than HMA)
4) the proper size of the rubber band, if too slack, double them
5) the length of the line stows
6) the way you pack like rolling inward and creasing the 4 cell noses each side or not on a 9 cells for Sabre
7) according Bill Booth one tuck tab of the riser covers releasing before the other one can generate a hard opening. The riser cover magnets are supposed to solve that. I have them and it works beautifully.
8) legs straps adjustment, too much slack and the opening might be harder
As you see there is many area to look at in order to improve your opening shock. But always remember, softer means also a longer vertical distance. My Sabre 2-170 was opening within 340 feet average on 10 jumps. My Katana 170 now opens withing 600 feet (average on 10 jumps). No wonder my Katana opens so softly.
>>>>

And now I can add: when bagging your 3 folds canopy, make sure with your fist around the lines near the attachment points to push toward the canopy to make sure the slider is still against its grommets. It could have moved when doing the 3 folds and any gap between slider and its grommets almost garantees you a slammer.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[DougH 270]

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Lastly, I don't think the slamming had anything to do with the pack jobs. I had an experienced packer that day and watched almost all of the pack job to get pointers on doing it neater for myself. also other than those two openings I have had about 275 super soft openings on pilots. So I don't think its the canopy either.

You aren't casting the blame on the packer, and at the same time you are saying that you have had almost 300 jumps on the same type of canopy with good openings?

I do think it is a pretty interesting theory though that you are presenting, snatch force from the pilot chute resulting in uneven releasing of the riser covers? Am I reading your post right?


How do you know it wasn't the packer? It isn't impossible to pack a real whacker, the best of us have done it.

I have had a canopy (PISA Hornet) that was a hard opener and it was consistent. It opened hard almost every jump. If your pilot has a problem I would expect it to open hard on multiple jumps as well.

Chances are it was bad luck or the pack job, unless it starts doing it to you with frequency. You are throwing a bed sheet into a hurricane after all. =P

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[MegaGoliath11 0]

I don't think it was the pack job. I can't explain why, I don't have a particular like/dislike for the packer, although I know he a is a pro.

It seems that there is a difference between real hard openings vs. the slammer. I have had hard openings before with jolting openings that I can attribute to some trash packing to make a load. Slammers on the other hand are in a different category.

After reading the forums and asking some other folks about hard openings it seems that there are basically two types of hard openings. The ones that shock you real hard and seem to instantly open instead of snivel. But the slammers i've had were far different. it seemed as though the chute instantly appeared and looked like a limp bowtie, suggesting no inflation inside the cells. The force was different as well. I felt the recoil and resulting whip lash almost killed me. The hard openings i've had just made me curse. This one made me check my body systems and see if everything was still there.

As I said before I have had hard openings but only two I can classify as slammers. You mention the Hornet and the consistent hard openings, the pilot I have now has openings that are consistently soft. I don't feel it has a problem.

Yes you are right about what I am saying about the snatch force from the weak PC throw resulting in uneven tuck tab release. And again I don't know it wasn't the pack job, but the force that resulted from the opening was severe enough for me to think that he would have had to really f**ked to get it to do that. I know his packs well enough to know that it just isn't likely he f**ked up.

[ladydyver 0]

I have had one hard opening on the 188 and one on the 168.....my spectre actually slammed me a couple of times. I have not heard of injuries that you have described at our DZ.

DPH # 2
"I am not sure what you are suppose to do with that, but I don't think it is suppose to flop around like that." ~Skootz~
I have a strong regard for the rules.......doc!

[MegaGoliath11 0]

I wasn't checking up on the packer, but I often watch the good ones work to get pointers.

[jtnesbitt 0]

I've only got 250ish jumps so I'm definitely not a pro packer by any means but I am normally pretty particular and OCD about it. I bought a brand new Pilot 168 this summer and loved it. The reason I bought it was because earlier this summer my friend bought a Pilot 168 brand new as well and I put about a dozen jumps on his. I noticed when I got mine that my openings were a lot softer. Not that they were hard on his, mine are just softer. They were both brand new pilot 168's though so I am wondering if the container has something to do with it. I was jumping his in an Icon and jump mine in a Javelin.

"If this post needs to be moderated I would prefer it to be completly removed and not edited and butchered into a disney movie" - DorkZone Hero

[MegaGoliath11 0]

thats sorta what I am saying. I don't think it is the Pilot at all. and not because of brand loyalty or because I spent alot of money on one. I can buy a new canopy anytime. I am not a professional skydiver nor an equipment manufacturer but I think there is alot of relevance in what Bill Booth has said about slammers that are causing by uneven tuck tab release.

[tbrown 26]

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I have had one hard opening on the 188 and one on the 168.....my spectre actually slammed me a couple of times. I have not heard of injuries that you have described at our DZ.

The Pilot and Spectre are two of the softest opening canopies on the market. Yet either one of them can knock your socks off on occasion for reasons that are difficult to control. You can be meticulous about your slider, but what can you do about a tuck tab hanging up, unless you want to run out and buy a Vector, or go back to velcro ?

A very good friend of ours was killed recently in an incident that may have involved a slammer opening, with a Spectre. That, combined with a health condition, ended in a fatal result.

Any time you throw 70 to 300 sq ft of nylon into a terminal wind blast, ANYTHING can happen. This is a sport that cannot ever be completely safe, inspite of our best efforts.

As a jumper who now owns and jumps his second Pilot, after having blown up my first one with a slammer, I cannot point the finger at the make, model, or maker of the canopy. This is a generic risk to our sport that obviously needs a generic solution.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[MegaGoliath11 0]

[/url]http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=gCw42HrEWVw[/url]

here is my slammer, yes the moaning was slightly ghey but I was justing coming out of it, and couldn't breath.

[jtnesbitt 0]

Haha, dude i am not laughing at you I am laughing with you. Seriously, that opening was FAST and looked like it sucked, but hearing the moaning as you're casually callapsing your slider is a little amusing because I have been there before.

I had an opening like that last year with my Triathalon so i feel your pain. I had to quit jumping for the day and it still hurt to breathe that night when i got home.

"If this post needs to be moderated I would prefer it to be completly removed and not edited and butchered into a disney movie" - DorkZone Hero

[JohnDeere 0]

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http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=gCw42HrEWVw

here is my slammer, yes the moaning was slightly ghey but I was justing coming out of it, and couldn't breath.

Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

[phoenixlpr 0]

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Lastly, I don't think the slamming had anything to do with the pack jobs.

Sure, just about having some slack between slider and slider stops......

For the record I had about 350 jumps on a Pilot 150 without any hard opening I would remember.

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I do remember that when I pulled I lazily threw the PC out, almost like I was just slipping it out of the BOC and not throwing it.

If you did not have any hesitation than it was good enough.

[MegaGoliath11 0]

I understand the concept about the slider and being against the stops. What I am saying is that IMHO the chute was packed properly.

The hesitation part I think you might have the wrong idea about. The theory about the tuck tabs being released separately is what I am referring too. Bill Booth presented this idea forth and you would not be able to feel the split second difference if the tuck tab got hanged up.

[gearless_chris 1]

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[/url]http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=gCw42HrEWVw[/url]

here is my slammer, yes the moaning was slightly ghey but I was justing coming out of it, and couldn't breath.

That's not bad that's what my normal openings look like. Check this out. [/url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8pspx_dobE[/url]

"If it wasn't easy stupid people couldn't do it", Duane.

My momma said I could be anything I wanted when I grew up, so I became an a$$hole.

[MegaGoliath11 0]

that was pretty hard. but I really don't think your normal openings are like that.

[MegaGoliath11 0]

yeah, for me the pain is slightly decreasing but I have alot of pain in my upper middle back, during opening I felt my head go way back much further than body design allows.

[jurgencamps 0]

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I was doing a two freefly jump, uneventful freefall, went to belly waved and pulled. The canopy opening was violent and instantaneous.

How much time between your transition from freefly (high speed) to belly (low speed)?
If you were still going faster than normal, when you pulled, ...

[RMURRAY 1]

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***After having received updated systems without tuck tabs, the incident of opening problems has dropped to zero.

good information Lou. for me (until now) it was just "talk" that tuck tabs could be part of the problem. I never have liked tuck tabs and have never owned a rig with them.

[davelepka 4]

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yeah, for me the pain is slightly decreasing but I have alot of pain in my upper middle back, during opening I felt my head go way back much further than body design allows.

You said that you jump a top mounted video camera, and it appeared in the video that you looked up to film your opening. This is not a good idea with a top mount, and this opening and your related pain are the exact reason why.

When you look up with a top mount, the camera moves back behind the vertical center line of your body (aka, your spine). Having the camera on top of your helmet puts the weight out further fromyour neck, giving the camera additional leverage to pull on your neck, in this case, pulling it to the rear.

The way around this is to keep your eyes level on the horizon through the opening. When the canopy sits you upright, it brings your spine into alignment with your head.

In the case of a hard opening, all of the weight of your head and camera will be pushing straight down, as opposed to levering it to one extreme or another. The advatage is that now the extra distance between the weight (your camera) and the pivot point (your neck) is a non issue. If it's pushing straight down, it loses it's effect as a lever the resulant ability to multiply the force on your neck.

Also, don't use a packer, especially with a camera helmet. Between the extra weight and snag potential, take the ten minutes to do it yourself, and make sure that it's done correct. (This is not a slam against the guy who packed the slammer, just a vote for the 'if you want something done right, do it yourself' camp).

[MegaGoliath11 0]

got you about the looking up part, I didn't look up intentionally, what you saw in the video was my head whipping back from the force of the opening. I usually tense my neck muscles, but this caught me off guard and spanked me. In the future I will try alot harder to keep my head forward.

[Blink 0]

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...the packer, although I know he a is a pro.

I know there was an incident earlier this year, about a month ago or so, that a "pro" packer forgot to uncollapse someone slider, and as a result, the opening broke the jumpers neck.

Just because he's packed many rigs before, doesn't make him immune to mistakes anymore than it does anyone else.

[MegaGoliath11 0]

right. did you see in the video me collapsing my slider?

if I packed it myself and I told everybody I properly packed most folks would still chalk it up to bad luck or that I was mistaken about the packjob. Hardly anybody cares about the unknowns that might happen... poor body position, tuck tabs hanging up..

The bottom line here is that slammers that open hard enough to injure or kill you are a known problem in skydiving.

watch the following video of bill booth discussing the tuck tab theory and why he developed magnetic riser covers. also read further on the forums about the benefits of using dacron over spectra.

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=GSVRSIicQDk

[DBCOOPER 1]

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also read further on the forums about the benefits of using dacron over spectra.


My Spectre 150 is currently at PD having the lines replaced with dacron after a slammer at Lost Prairie that resulted in a trip to the CT scanner to see if my back was broken...

Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon

If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea.

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