I'm new...mal procedure question...

[drewcarp 0]

I did 5 AFF jumps last summer and am waiting for warmer days and more money to continue but I do enjoy reading these forums and I think I have learned a lot of valuable info doing so. Just for the sake of discussion, here is something that doesn't make sense to me. If you are new to mind that I HAVE 5 JUMPS and don't know anything so ask your instructor and don't even consider doing anything I propose here. This QUESTION is for people who know....

Here's my question:

One could reasonably say in respect to a main horseshoe mal that....

1. Common practice: try once, try twice, cut away and pull reserve, hoping it misses the main.

2. If not cleared there is a descent chance of a main/reserve entanglement when you pull silver=dead or serious ouch, bad.

So I was thinking about it and it seems to me that the best course of action would be to keep trying to un-horseshoe your main (manually or hook knife) letting your AAD finally fire at the last possible moment if you can't clear the main. Weather or not you chop first or hope it un-horseshoes into clean deployment, I donno.

The reasoning being:

1. there (seems to me) to be a greater chance of main/reserve entanglement when deploying a reserve into a ball o' shit than there is of a cypress failing to fire and this would give you more time to clear the mal prior to risking an entanglement. ????

This procedure would dictate that you must always jump with an AAD and have it turned on(which I plan on doing)

I know the standard EP's and will follow them. DO NOT RELY ON AN AAD, always pull handles. Just wondering if anyone else has thought of this?

So basically...

Is it more likely for a AAD to fail or for a reserve to entangle with a horseshoed main when you yank silver?

Thanks!






1. H

[pilotdave 0]

If your AAD doesn't fire for whatever reason, you're now at something under 750 feet, still in a high speed malfunction. And if it works, you might now have an entanglement and only a couple hundred feet to deal with it. You're much better off taking your chances pulling your reserve up high and then dealing with whatever you get. Hook knives aren't for freefall.

Dave

[drewcarp 0]

Yeah but using the normal procedure you would try once, twice, cut away and pull ur reserve right away, probably into a horseshoed main, with a few thousand feet to spare before your AAD would (hopefully) fire, which could be enough time to either clear it and have the main deploy or get rid of it and have a clean reserve.

Would the risk of an AAD failure outweigh taking the chance you have of clearing the horseshoed main before your AAD fires?

Sorry if this is a stupid and far fetched question.

Deploy stable, throw hard and hopefully this will never be a problem.

~D

[labrys 0]

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Is it more likely for a AAD to fail or for a reserve to entangle with a horseshoed main when you yank silver?

I don't know the statistics but I do feel that there's a significant chance that a horseshoe might slow you down enough that your AAD won't fire, particularly if you have an "expert" version.

I can't think of any reason other than being entirely unable to take action of any sort to wait for an AAD to fire.

Owned by Remi #?

[drewcarp 0]

Ok, I think I get it. You want more time to deal with the eventual entanglement because you probably wont be able to clear it if you couldn't in the first few tries?

Thanks!

[diablopilot 2]

Basic theory when dealing with high speed malfunctions: Slow the skydive down.


When doing better than 100mph towards the giant ball of dirt and rock, put more fabric out to make the encounter slow as possible.

I hope instructors are still teaching that things like Two out and, Horseshoe Mals are a dynamic thing and there is no positively right answer, only a set of tools to use in dealing with them.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[BIGUN 1,075]

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Yeah but using the normal procedure you would try once, twice, cut away and pull ur reserve right away, probably into a horseshoed main,

I would encourage you to watch the video "Break-Away" several times.

Item V9915 Here

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[aresye 0]

My personal EP for a horseshoe mal that I've been training on, is that I will try twice to clear it, and if not possible:

1. Cut away.
2. Observe riser disconnection, and if not, manually separating them, as there is a chance there might not be enough pull force from the mal to disconnect the risers.
3. Bring both arms in to pull silver. With both arms in, plus the stress of the emergency, most likely I will be tense, and in a slight head-low position. In this case, if the horseshoe mal is removed from the risers at least, this head-low position will allow some separation between the trailing D-bag, and the launching pilot chute.

Skydiving: You either learn from other's mistakes, or they'll learn from yours.

[drewcarp 0]

Wow, it seems you have put a great deal of thought into that and I really like your plan. I had never heard of the intentional head low deployment part but it makes sense to me. What do the high number people think of this strategy?

[format 0]

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1. Cut away.
2. Observe riser disconnection, and if not, manually separating them, as there is a chance there might not be enough pull force from the mal to disconnect the risers.
3. Bring both arms in to pull silver. With both arms in, plus the stress of the emergency, most likely I will be tense, and in a slight head-low position. In this case, if the horseshoe mal is removed from the risers at least, this head-low position will allow some separation between the trailing D-bag, and the launching pilot chute.

This guy obviously agree with you.. partly:
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=HQ_IYU2CM-I

- one hand on silver and he didn't clear PC.

What goes around, comes later.

[diablopilot 2]

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My personal EP for a horseshoe mal that I've been training on, is that I will try twice to clear it, and if not possible:

1. Cut away.
2. Observe riser disconnection, and if not, manually separating them, as there is a chance there might not be enough pull force from the mal to disconnect the risers.
3. Bring both arms in to pull silver. With both arms in, plus the stress of the emergency, most likely I will be tense, and in a slight head-low position. In this case, if the horseshoe mal is removed from the risers at least, this head-low position will allow some separation between the trailing D-bag, and the launching pilot chute.

It's a nice thought, but think it through a bit more. The trailing d-bag and risers are going to be directly downwind of you no matter your body position, and that exactly where your reserve is going to deploy.

Not saying you're procedure is wrong, just that a horseshoe is a roll of the dice.

The best way to handle a horseshoe is prevention.

1) Maintain your gear, especially closing loops.
2) Check your gear before each jump, this includes the other things you're using besides your rig. Ask yourself if your gear is snag resistant.
3) Protect your gear in the plane and on the jump.
4) Deploy cleanly.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[RoryJ 0]

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Not saying you're procedure is wrong, just that a horseshoe is a roll of the dice.

The best way to handle a horseshoe is prevention.

1) Maintain your gear, especially closing loops.
2) Check your gear before each jump, this includes the other things you're using besides your rig. Ask yourself if your gear is snag resistant.
3) Protect your gear in the plane and on the jump.
4) Deploy cleanly.

I think that JP put it best with this. Horseshoe malfunctions do not just happen, they are the result of a chain of events. Try to break that chain on the ground, in the plane, etc. before you step out.

If you do find yourself in the midst of them, have a definitive plan of action and put it into action, but be ready for anything. You DID just have a horseshoe happen to you.


And I love how emergency procedures that have been developed from years of experience are so summarily challenged by newer jumpers.

More time gives more chance of fixing a situation, so I am not going to let a (fallible) computer decide my fate at 750 ft. I will be the master of my own destiny, thank you.

Not again!

[popsjumper 2]

To answer your question directly, the entanglement is more likely. Waiting on your AAD is NOT a good idea. The answer to that has already been mentioned...altitude to deal with the results your going to get when the reserve does come out.

I'm interested in what YOU are going to do. Be specific. there's more to it than "I know the standard EPs."

Try once, try twice, sounds nice and simple but that's not how it works. You're going to be trying once...a continuous once. But hold on there's more...

It's NOT a time issue. It, like everything else is an altitude issue.
No body has yet mentioned altitude awareness.
How about checking your altitude while your trying to get the mess off you?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[BIGUN 1,075]

Along the lines of JP's suggestion regarding the best solution is "prevention."

Brian Germain has the following: The Secret to Pilot Chute Packing

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[dgw 8]

I would think a flat position gives the best separation between the reserve pilotchute and trailing materials.

When you move from a flat position, towards a head low position (or head high position), the separation between reserve pilotchute and trailing material reduces, with the separation reducing to zero for a fully 'head down' (or 'head up') position.

Me? I'll be as flat as a ten-day old beer should this unhappy situation befall me... YMMV

[kelpdiver 2]

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So I was thinking about it and it seems to me that the best course of action would be to keep trying to un-horseshoe your main (manually or hook knife) letting your AAD finally fire at the last possible moment if you can't clear the main. Weather or not you chop first or hope it un-horseshoes into clean deployment, I donno.

Aside from the question about when to clear any snags between the two canopies, planning to not have a good canopy until ~500ft jeopardizes your landing. You'll have perhaps 30 or 40 seconds to collect yourself and identify an LZ. You probably won't have time to think about landing against the wind unless you know the direction of head of time, and the LZ options permit you make any needed turns.

Double these concerns if you have an undersized reserve, like so many.

[antonija 0]

About a month ago I was taught EP for horseshoe... I was told to try once (twice depended on situation, general consensus was to give bridle a good strong pull), look at trirings at all time to see if they disconnect, if they don't, disconnect them manually (I suppose it wouldn't take much time especially if you examine trirings and how they work on the ground), then look at the silver and pull with both hands. No one mentioned anything about achieving head down position, but considering you head is down (looking at silver), your hands are not behind-and-above... you're gonna be in at least slight head down.

The whole EP (bridle pull, manual disconnect, pull reserve) should not last for more than 5s I imagine... more like 3 if you practice is on the ground a bit. And since I'm very new to this sport, I like to play around with training rig (the one my instructor hangs from a tree and makes me practise cutaways) on the ground to fully understand what makes triring hold you under your canopy and why it is so easy to chop, what happens with each ring when you chop, etc. But then again I am a geek :p

I understand the need for conformity. Without a concise set of rules to follow we would probably all have to resort to common sense. -David Thorne

[sergant 0]

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The whole EP (bridle pull, manual disconnect, pull reserve) should not last for more than 5s I imagine... more like 3 if you practice is on the ground a bit.

You may want to (re-)watch "Breakaway" video and check how much time it took for an extremely experienced jumper who was expecting to deal with that mal.

[sparkie 0]

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Would the risk of an AAD failure outweigh taking the chance you have of clearing the horseshoed main before your AAD fires?

On your next jump, look down when you are at 750 ft. Do you really want to wait for the aad to fire?

Aside from it beeing scary low, I'm a firm believer of saving your own life as opposed to letting yourself be saved by something or someone.

As others have said, a horseshoe mal is dynamic and there is no right answer. My advice would be to stop worrying about this to such a degree and just have fun jumping for now and stick to the EP's you're taught.

[labrys 0]

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On your next jump, look down when you are at 750 ft.

I highly recommend doing this on the ride up and not the ride down.

Owned by Remi #?

[erdnarob 1]

I agree with diablopilot, prevention is way better than the cure especially when there is no really a cure for a horseshoe malfunction. Horseshoe mal's can appear in many modes like: pilot chute stuck in its pocket, bridle caught around your arm, leg or neck... When the pilot chute is caught in the pocket and provided you know what happens, you can try once or twice to remove and launch the pilot chute. If there is no success then go for the reserve handle, what else...?
How to avoid that ?
1) know your rig and how it works and maintain it (ask a rigger)
2) before EACH jump check: release system (rings and yellow cable), pins and AAD)
3) take your time (grab securely then pull) to launch the pilot chute properly. When it's the time to pull, no panic. An extra second will provide you with better result than rushing it.
4) after the PC launch, resume your free fall position and de-arch to slow down and look at horizon.

A friend of mine had a leather hackey and slippery gloves. He didn't do the pilot chute launch properly (his hand slipped), got unstable and his bridle went between his legs. The deployment occurred that way. Result : he got hit badly by the POD on the leg, a 350 lbs HMA line cut through his jumpsuit and hurt his leg, he got a broken line and a 3 foot tear in the middle cell. However he was lucky enough and landed OK.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[DSE 3]

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On your next jump, look down when you are at 750 ft.

I highly recommend doing this on the ride up and not the ride down.

Labrys, I took his sentence to mean "look down while under canopy @ 750'," not in freefall.

[councilman24 36]

This is a very distrubing trend.

We are getting more and more newbies who think waiting for an AAD to fire is acceptable.

There was a time when experienced jumpers, even jumpers who had friends and spouses killed by being knocked unconcious, wouldn't jump an AAD because they were considered to dangerous by being unreliable. Those were different AAD's and I do jump modern AAD's but...

I've also been at 500' at terminal velocity. You don't want to be there, no matter what's above your head. (Yes all my handles were pulled at the right altitude, reserve total's are a bitch.) 750' is about where the AAD's cut the loop. Usually reserves are open between 300 and 400'. All of this is less than 5 seconds from impact.

Please, after you turn it on, FORGET you have an AAD. It is not part of you emergency procedures!

BTW the best chance it to get the horseshoe into a streamer by cutting away. If you DID wait for an AAD you made the chances of the horseshoe interferring with the reserve deployment much worse. Including just slowing it down a second or two... just enough to bounce first!

And if it ever fires and someone else didn't knock you out think about taking up bowling.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[labrys 0]

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Labrys, I took his sentence to mean "look down while under canopy @ 750'," not in freefall.

I'm guilty of using an insufficient smiley. I meant to convey this

Owned by Remi #?

[TrojanHorse 0]

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This is a very distrubing trend.

Disturbing indeed. This is the second thread about this topic. An AAD is a back up device only. It activates at an altitude that more or less all other options (by time and altitude) are over. Never ever wait for your AAD. If you can get the reserve manually DO IT! The activation altitude of a modern AAD gives no room for any further error.

William
Argus