Squeak 17 #1 March 10, 2008 Innovation or fluff?You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybeergodd 0 #2 March 10, 2008 Not a bad idea or design. I can see possiblities of line dump. I don't see any huge advantage as far as ease of packing though. The biggest complaint I hear is getting the canopy in the bag. Most people get the smallest cotainer and them try to cram a large canopy into it. That bag design will not address that issue. It only address line stowage. I can see some advantage to that design for CRW or even for the swoopers who do Hop and Pops...it has a greater potential for on heading openings than the traditional rubber band stows.......Just my 2 cents worth on it. I'm not knocking the bag at all. I'm all for innovations and new ideas. It's the only way we can progress the sport. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #3 March 11, 2008 QuoteInnovation or fluff? It's clever and the engineering looks good. But: It takes more time to put the lines into a neat figure eight than it does to neatly stow them in rubber bands (sized so you don't double wrap) and means pulling the rig towards you instead of walking to the rig so you need a packing mat to avoid excessive rig wear; and a change which increase both packing time and tool count doesn't seem like a good idea to me. The gain is that it eliminates rubber band replacement. Tube stows/calf castration bands/silibands/etc. last a long time so that's not much of an improvement. I wouldn't worry about line dump (tail pockets work fine for terminal BASE jumps) or reliability (reserve freebags work the same way) if the system was used carefully. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brettski74 0 #4 March 11, 2008 I saw one of these at Ramblers last year. The person jumping it said he'd had no problems with it and is one of the most senior jumpers on the DZ, so I respect his opinion. I'm not sure how long he'd had it at that point, but from the way he talked about it, I got the impression he'd put a not insignificant number of jumps on it. The point about getting the canopy in the bag is true - it won't help there, but *my* biggest complaint about packing is dealing with those rubber bands, and this bag design certainly addresses that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #5 March 11, 2008 It takes me half that time to bag the canopy and stow my lines with rubberbands. Between all the extra flaps, stifeners and pockets, and those long locking thingys, it looks like twice as many parts as a regular D-bag. Tiwce as many things to break. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #6 March 11, 2008 QuoteI saw one of these at Ramblers last year. The person jumping it said he'd had no problems with it and is one of the most senior jumpers on the DZ, so I respect his opinion. I'm not sure how long he'd had it at that point, but from the way he talked about it, I got the impression he'd put a not insignificant number of jumps on it. The point about getting the canopy in the bag is true - it won't help there, but *my* biggest complaint about packing is dealing with those rubber bands, and this bag design certainly addresses that. You want to learn technique from an efficient packer. Roll the bag flap around the bag mouth past the rubber band to compress the pack job and then thread the band through the grommet. To stow each bight form an arrow around the bight with your strong hand thumb and index finger, use that to thread the bight through the rubber band which you open with your weak hand, releasing the rubber band, holding the bight with your weak hand, pull out your strong hand, and let go. This is all easier to demonstrate than describe but it shouldn't take more than 1-2 seconds per stow to get the lines in the rubber bands. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brettski74 0 #7 March 11, 2008 QuoteYou want to learn technique from an efficient packer. My issue with rubber bands has nothing to do with speed or the ease with which I can stow the lines. I have no trouble getting the parachute in the bag, getting the lines in the stows. The issue is the effect that repeated stretching the stows and slipping my fingers in and out in order to stow the lines slowly but surely damages the skin. Drier climates like that in Eloy tends to exacerbate the problem. On an average weekend, it's not so bad, but on a busy weekend, or a 1 or two week trip, I typically end up with cracks, bleeding, tears and other rather uncomfortable problems. If you can come up with a packing technique that doesn't require my touching the rubber bands, great. I prefer to pack my parachute for a number of reasons and I choose to work through the pain and discomfort, but if there's an option that allows me to avoid that, then that's an attractive option. Note that I don't yet have a lazy bag, but I have considered getting one, but I'll probably jump my new rig un-modified for a while longer and discuss it further with my local riggers before I take that step. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chrisky 0 #8 March 11, 2008 Design has been around for about 5 years, i remember thinking about trying to get one when i wanted to buy an Odyssey in 2003. There have been previous discussions on the subject under the term Berger bag or stowless d-bag. There is a belgian rigger who makes them, i looked into it a nwhile ago (january) as some friends of mine from Spa were jumping them at the Castellon new years boogie, but I dont have the link anymore as I'm happy with my tube stows. Looked easy enough to handle for tight packjobs though. Woudl be interesting to get some stats on it, how many jumps were put on them, how they are affected by wear (stiffeners esp.) etc., any problems yaddayadda. Anyone care to share their experiences? Should have asked Derek last week... Dayum! The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open. From the edge you just see more. ... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #9 March 11, 2008 Are you a hand model? ---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IanHarrop 37 #10 March 11, 2008 QuoteQuoteYou want to learn technique from an efficient packer. My issue with rubber bands has nothing to do with speed or the ease with which I can stow the lines. I have no trouble getting the parachute in the bag, getting the lines in the stows. The issue is the effect that repeated stretching the stows and slipping my fingers in and out in order to stow the lines slowly but surely damages the skin. Drier climates like that in Eloy tends to exacerbate the problem. On an average weekend, it's not so bad, but on a busy weekend, or a 1 or two week trip, I typically end up with cracks, bleeding, tears and other rather uncomfortable problems. If you can come up with a packing technique that doesn't require my touching the rubber bands, great. I prefer to pack my parachute for a number of reasons and I choose to work through the pain and discomfort, but if there's an option that allows me to avoid that, then that's an attractive option. Note that I don't yet have a lazy bag, but I have considered getting one, but I'll probably jump my new rig un-modified for a while longer and discuss it further with my local riggers before I take that step. Some people that work full time packing choose to wear gloves."Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #11 March 11, 2008 Sun Path tested that concept on Javelin Odysseys circa 2003, but never put it into production. They did loan some to a competitive team for a few thousand jumps. The team reported few problems. However, I suspect that the bag would be problematic if you installed a different-sized (volume) canopy. Remember that some tuck tabs only have tolerances in the 1/16 of an inch range. Too small a canopy would result in too little tension and line dump. Too tight a canopy might pop tuck tabs prematurely, again line dump. Besides, tuck tabs are last week's fashion. If you want this week's fashion, buy a magnetic d-bag from Advance Seven in France. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
damion75 0 #12 March 12, 2008 Quote The issue is the effect that repeated stretching the stows and slipping my fingers in and out in order to stow the lines slowly but surely damages the skin. Drier climates like that in Eloy tends to exacerbate the problem. Some kind of hand cream may be in order...? *************** Not one shred of evidence supports the theory that life is serious - look at the platypus. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #13 March 12, 2008 QuoteSome kind of hand cream may be in order...? Tongue I use to pack lot of student gear. I got less skip problem after using a power tool instead of a pull-up cord. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #14 March 12, 2008 Quote Quote The issue is the effect that repeated stretching the stows and slipping my fingers in and out in order to stow the lines slowly but surely damages the skin. Drier climates like that in Eloy tends to exacerbate the problem. Some kind of hand cream may be in order...? Careful with that - the glycerine present in most hand creams can cause false positives on explosive detectors when they swab your rig.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #15 March 13, 2008 Advance Seven is made by Basik Air Concepts in France. If you want the latest in magnetic d-bags, contact: www.basik.fr Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #16 March 13, 2008 Quote Advance Seven is made by Basik Air Concepts in France. If you want the latest in magnetic d-bags, contact: www.basik.fr There are rubber bands on that d-bag too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeGe 0 #17 March 14, 2008 The lazy bag has been around for quite a few years in Belgium. Those that have one really like it. Have a look at www.compal.be Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #18 March 14, 2008 Thanks! I have seen it before. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #19 March 14, 2008 Does anyone know where I can purchase one?"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brettski74 0 #20 March 15, 2008 Quote Does anyone know where I can purchase one? Did you try clicking on the link only two posts above yours? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RMURRAY 1 #21 March 16, 2008 QuoteInnovation or fluff? fluff....rubber bands work well for the very important job of keeping the canopy in the bag until linestretch AND deploying lines in an orderly manner. When needed they break. yes, they require some work to change out. no big deal.... rm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #22 March 16, 2008 Quote Did you try clicking on the link only two posts above yours? Crazy Have you tried? Those pages has been removed from Sunpath.com. I could not find any price. Have you? Show me! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #23 March 16, 2008 Quote Quote Did you try clicking on the link only two posts above yours? Crazy Have you tried? Those pages has been removed from Sunpath.com. I could not find any price. Have you? Show me! Umm the link is for a Belgian site not sunpath. you were looking at the wrong postYou are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #24 March 16, 2008 Quote Umm the link is for a Belgian site not sunpath. you were looking at the wrong postTongue There is no price there either. Your move. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #25 March 16, 2008 Quote Quote Umm the link is for a Belgian site not sunpath. you were looking at the wrong postTongue There is no price there either. Your move. why you gotta be like, that. The question was does anyone know where to buy them. The link provided is a plae to purchase, any further info can be gleaned by emailing the manufacturersYou are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites