Conservative crossbrace piloting?

[jump_pilot 0]

I'm looking into the purchase of new gear finally after 10 years in the sport. My first was a Saber 170 1993 mfg date. Between flying airplanes, paragliders and skydiving I've only accumulated 200 jumps and I consider myself a conservative pilot. I once demoed a Nitron 150 and didn't notice too much difference from my 170.
I need some helpful advice from those in the know:
I weigh in at 170 and I'm looking into velocitiy and xaos. I would prefer to not go any smaller than a 135 or MAYBE a 120.
With that said..help me out. Do these canopies only perform well at high loads or would a consevate pilot with smaller loads do okay? Now, which canopy?

[trigger 0]

You really don't need a X-brace.
Point being they're designed for experienced 'swoopers' who are at the top of their game and probably wont fly too well at light WL's.
I don't think anything can be learned/gained from flying such a wing unless you are the above and into the swoop comps.

SabreII,SafireII of an appropriate size maybe wiser choices.

.CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER.

[jakee 1,254]

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I weigh in at 170 and I'm looking into velocitiy and xaos.

For what reason?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jump_pilot 0]

Frankly, just casual jumping and canopy flying. I just want a canopy with really good drive in the flare and I just heard the x-braced were the best. But what do I know.

[davelepka 4]

Both the Velo and Xaos were designed around swooping. Everything else they do is just a by-product of being able to fall out of the sky and build up speed.

Try jumping the Sabre2 or the Pilot. Both will be a significant improvement over the Sabre in all areas, and cost about $500 less.

Size wise, the 150 range is a good place to start. The reason it doesn't feel that much different than your 170 is that it's not. But here's the kicker, you're not that much different than when you started jumping the 170.

I'm not sure why you think that making huge changes in canopy size and type is a good idea, but it's not.

[F16Driver 0]

Velos and Xaos aren't good for casual jumping.

With your experience/background, could you jump one loaded at 2.0, do a bunch of practice flares up high, and land without killing yourself.......Maybe. The speed at which everything happens on a XB, though, is where you'll get hurt if you're not proficient.

If you don't keep current on a high performance canopy, just like a plane, you'll eventually hurt/kill yourself.

Just my .02. We're all just trying to keep you safe and in the air.

"I promise, I will never die."

[jump_pilot 0]

Thanks for advice fellas. I'll keep the x-bracing on the paragliders.

[pchapman 261]

200 jumps, spread over 10 years, profile not filled out, wanting to downsize as much as 3 sizes from his regular canopy... there's a glutton for punishment on DZ.com!

But like you said in a 2nd post, you heard that they flare nicely. Which is true, and a valid reason ... but there's a lot more to them!

I do know someone who has long flown crossbraced at 1.4 loading, which is a low loading compared to most people who fly crossbraced. She doesn't do accelerated landings (diving to swoop) either. She just likes the crossbraced's quick handling, solid canopy, and the long flare duration, compared to a bigger non-crossbraced she flew previously. So one doesn't have to fly at high wing loading to enjoy a crossbraced. Unless you find one cheap, there's probably better value for money in a non-crossbraced for you.

Often for downsizing people will recommend closer to an "ideal course of action":
a prudent downsizing program that will prepare someone well for future downsizing and allow them to practice to be gradually more agressive with swoop landings, with some extra safety margin.

But it is also possible to recommend "what you can probably get away with". This is unpopular to recommend to anyone, but fun to do if you like trying out different aerial vehicles yet don't have the time to commit to millions of jumps and buy a dozen different canopies.

So this means downsizing to a canopy that someone can handle in normal situations without it scaring them excessively. It may scare them a little but they'll feel they can adequately control it. That may give them very little margin if they start trying to swoop it with little experience. Also, they may or may not handle the canopy correctly in abnormal circumstances. (eg, low altitude canopy collision avoidance; off landings in rough terrain.) But that's the pilot's choice to make.

I'm offering advice that's closer to "what you can get away with" than "what's ideal".

If you really aren't going to have the time to jump much, for a canopy you buy, only downsize by one step and don't go crossbraced. You can be more aggressive with canopies you borrow for a shorter time.

But if you'll get the chance to be a bit more active, say at least for a summer where you're doing all this downsizing, you could downsize 2 sizes. (A number of jumps concentrated in time is better than the same number spread out through 4 seasons of jumping.) Don't waste your money buying a one-size-down downsize. Borrow that to get familiar with it, and buy 2 sizes down. So that's a 135, which you'd load 1.4 or so -- that's plenty fast and aggressive if one isn't jumping a lot, and still lots of fun. (For me, I found that fun started at 1.25 & above, to oversimplify things.)

If you want faster than that (3 sizes down), at some point after some downsizing practice, borrow a canopy from friends for a few jumps. Then you're not commited and aren't forced to fly like that all the time, in all conditions.

Suggestions like buying a Pilot or Sabre2 make a lot of sense. Modern characteristics, zippy, but not super ground hungry like the crossbraced canopies.

Not that you couldn't go crossbraced, but it is riskier. Not a lot of point to doing so. They do fly significantly differently, so it really is best to be comfortable flying a 135 before going to a 135 crossbraced.

Also, if you're at a big DZ (turbines), you might want to be more conservative. More head swivelling needed.

[jump_pilot 0]

That was EXTREEMLY useful. Thank-you sooo much. Looks like I need to demo lots this next season.

[pchapman 261]

One additional factor that could have influenced jump_pilot's question in the first place:

In paragliding, crossbracing ('diagonal ribs') are basically used everywhere and for everything now, making any canopy aerodynamically better, an important thing in paragliding. The only big reason not to use it is the cost. So only the simplest wings, like for students, won't be crossbraced.

That's quite different than in skydiving, where crossbracing is typically only used for the canopies that 'really need it', which is only those designed for the highest wing loading and highest performance.

[UDSkyJunkie 0]

Lots of good info already presented, and it looks like you've got the message, so I'll just put in my vote for Sabre2 as a great all-around canopy with tons of flare power.

Similar designs like pilot and safire2 are also excellent. If you really like playing up high, the pilot seemed easier to "whip around" with toggles due to short control range... the tradeoff is high front riser pressure, but if you don't use them it doesn't matter. Felt the Sabre2 had a larger flight envelope. Don't have anything to say about the safire2.

"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

[matt3sa 0]

Hey, I jumped a Velo 120 loaded around 1.6 and I loved it. Don't worry about other peoples opinions about how they're geared for swooping only. Even if you aren't swooping it, they still have some very enjoyable and different flight characteristics. The velo was great even when I babied it in. They are definitely best choice for swoopers, but at the same time they are enjoyable for those who aren't swooping every landing. The velo landed great even without high speed. You just want to take it easy. Demo a 120. Fly it easy. They dive a lot longer and build up more speed than any other canopy, but with practice you'll learn how to fly it within your limits. Many people have responded that you don't "need" a x-brace. This is true. Why would anyone need a Mercedes Coupe? They don't, but they prefer the characteristics over the characteristics of a Honda Accord. Try it out and decide for yourself. Demos are free. Be safe. I'm now jumping a Velo closer to 2.0 because I prefer the characteristics of a higher loaded velo (more harness input response, speed etc).

[phoenixlpr 0]

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Hey, I jumped a Velo 120 loaded around 1.6 and I loved it. Don't worry about other peoples opinions about how they're geared for swooping only.

Can you name any benefit over non-crossbraced?
They are more expensive, less predictable opening, more complex.

I had to notice that e.g. break settings are a compromise.
I got involved in swooping and I got to lengthen my lower break lines. I felt that I lost some flare power on strait in landings but I don't pull breaks with fronts anymore.

[gearless_chris 1]

Your arms didn't get longer did they? When you lengthen the brake lines 4 inches, the flare starts 4 inches lower in your stroke. Or another way to look at it is with your toggles all the way down, they are pulling 4 inches less on the canopy. It's better than having the canopy bucking like crazy though.

"If it wasn't easy stupid people couldn't do it", Duane.

My momma said I could be anything I wanted when I grew up, so I became an a$$hole.

[Elisha 1]

Another thank you here for some balanced, non-reactionary, non-freaking out info.

I have 320...finished w/90 this year and 101 last year. Most of my last about 150 have been on my current Sabre-120 @1.3. I like it and plan to keep it, but want to move to something not square, probably around early summer. I've done a few demo jumps (i.e. demoing other people's gear) on a Safire2-119, Stilletto-107, Sabre2-120 and about 5-6 on Mike Rabe's Crossfire-99 - all definitely more fun than the old Sabre. My actual getting something else though will depend more on my economic situation at the time. Most likely it will end up being like a Sabre2-107/Safire2-109/Stilletto-107 as opposed to something under 100 sq ft. In the meantime, the Sabre-120 isn't too bad. It was definitely a sweet pick-up for a 10 year-old canopy w/ ~500 jumps and only $250.

UDSkyjunkie,
Pilot toggle whip: definitely noticed that as well when jumping a 132. I thought the instant horizontal from burying a toggle was an enticing point of the canopy.

[matt3sa 0]

***Can you name any benefit over non-crossbraced?
They are more expensive, less predictable opening, more complex.


It's very simple. You look at cost, an opinion on their openings (which is only your opinion), and complexity?

The people that ask themselves if these canopies are right for them have already considered those things. They already know the price and they've accepted the price. They have probably researched your "less predictable opening" theory, and I'm just not sure what you mean by being more "complex". From dz forums and my own personal experience with Velocity's they are very predictable if you always pack the same and have the correct body positioning on opening. Again, this is only an opinion. I put 150 jumps on a Cobalt 135 after everyone said they open like crap, but I thought mine opened great. As far as complexity, I can only assume that you mean the x-braced structure. The only difference is pack volume and flight characteristics.

I guess what it boils down to is personal preference. You (phoenixlpr) don't jump x-brace canopies because you've already generated an opinion based on either experience or other peoples opinions. I jump x-brace because I like them better than non x-brace. The original poster will make his own decision after viewing forums, gear reviews and demoing.

[billvon 2,400]

>They are more expensive, less predictable opening, more complex.

The openings, as always, depend on the canopy. A Xaos-21 opens FAR better than a Stiletto or a Sabre 1. Pack volume is higher, as is cost. Complexity is also higher, but it should be pointed out that the additional complexity takes place inside the canopy and is not subjected to the usual wear, so the worst case is that it costs more to repair if you blow a seam or something.

Another issue is lines. Vectran/HMA lines are typically both more expensive and wear faster than Spectra, but are more dimensionally stable. You have to keep an eye on them, because they don't show wear and damage as readily as Spectra does. Generally the xbrace canopies have the more expensive lines. On the other hand, canopies like the Xaos have non-cascaded lines, which means much easier line replacements.

[2shay 0]

you do an average of 20 jumps per season, for a total of 200. There is absolutely NO reason that you should be looking into going crossbraced because you will not be doing any hp landings or even close to it from what it sounds to me. A good example would be to buy a ferrari and only drive it a few times a year and not even try to get above 45 mph. Don't do it, that is useless and they are a lot more expensive than regular canopies. Ones to check would probably be safire 2, sabre 2, or spectre, and would reccomend not to go below 150. That is just my two cents on it

don't try your bullshit with me!!!

[wetswooper 0]

WHY? To look good for girls? That's the only reason I can think of.. Or do you just want to downsize without getting a smaller rig?

If you are planning to use the crossbraced for regular skydives, think that even many very experienced canopy pilots and swoopers have a second rig for freefall jumps with something that isn't crossbraced. Sabre2 and Pilot for example have plenty of flare and open much better than velocity. Those pilots have thousands of skydives and they still think with their experience a conservative canopy is better for freefly and RW, even though they surely have the experience to deploy and pack their crossbraced canopies in the right way. The main reason for this is the tendency of crossbraced canopies to open sometimes very hard (at least velocity, VX and JVX) from terminal, and also that even though they might not give you linetwists (if you can handle the opening), they don't give you on heading openings as reliably than for example pilot and sabre2. Off heading opening just aren't a good thing when you in the future make some freefly or RW together with a bunch of other skydivers. Also if you're planning to take a camrecorder with you on your helmet, you will be happy not to have any hard openings. It's also not only about the skills to deploy or pack the crossbraced. For example the size of your pilot chute may affect the openings of crossbraced a lot more than some non-crossbaced. People who jump with crossbraced canopies usually have a vast experience of different kind of equipment and they know how to choose the right kind of rig for the canopy.

If you'd like to learn how to swoop, with your experience (even though you were the one with gifts and doing better with your landings than 99,9% of other skydivers), sabre2 is a good canopy to start practicing high speed landings.

I'm not saying you couldn't handle the velocity, but you're definitely increasing the risk of cutaway, offheading and hard openings, and limiting the possibilities to make safe bigway skydives or camera jumps in the future.

If you still absolutely want to go for a crossbraced, make it a Xaos 21. IMO it's the best opening crossbraced there is and also some camera flyers use it because of that.

But....Even a non crossbraced canopy can look nice, and if it's only about getting the smaller canopy to fit in the same container, I'd suggest you just get some other new or used container for your smaller main canopy.

[davelepka 4]

Whoever you are, you're out of your mind.

Not to mention that guy had already agreed he was off base with his original idea, and another poster clued us in that in paragliding, cross bracing goes into almost every wing, not just top-of-the-line HP wings.

Even without that, you need to put your thinking cap back on with regrards to HP canopies.

[crazydiver 0]

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***Can you name any benefit over non-crossbraced?
They are more expensive, less predictable opening, more complex.


It's very simple. You look at cost, an opinion on their openings (which is only your opinion), and complexity?

The people that ask themselves if these canopies are right for them have already considered those things. They already know the price and they've accepted the price. They have probably researched your "less predictable opening" theory, and I'm just not sure what you mean by being more "complex". From dz forums and my own personal experience with Velocity's they are very predictable if you always pack the same and have the correct body positioning on opening. Again, this is only an opinion. I put 150 jumps on a Cobalt 135 after everyone said they open like crap, but I thought mine opened great. As far as complexity, I can only assume that you mean the x-braced structure. The only difference is pack volume and flight characteristics.

I guess what it boils down to is personal preference. You (phoenixlpr) don't jump x-brace canopies because you've already generated an opinion based on either experience or other peoples opinions. I jump x-brace because I like them better than non x-brace. The original poster will make his own decision after viewing forums, gear reviews and demoing.

I have 6 or 7 hundred jumps on various sizes of velocities. I LOVE that canopy. Love it.

However...if I weren't swooping...there is not a chance in hell that I'd be jumping it. I'd most likely be on a Sabre 2 or spectre. Much better openings, much more predictable, and only minimally less forward drive. I love the velocity, but I would rather make life easier on myself by jumping something else if I weren't using my canopy for swooping.

Cheers,
Travis