micah_v 0 #1 April 7, 2007 I have an old rig that has been sitting in my closet since 97. Should have sold it years ago, now I am wonder what the best thing to do with this is as far as selling it. The rig is a XL Racer Elite with about 200 jumps on it. The main is a Falcon 215 with also a few hundred jumps. The reserve is a Raven II with 0 jumps. Also has a Cypress with a totally dead battery. I wondering if it is best to sell as separates or complete rig. About 5 years ago I brought to a local DZ to see if they could sell on consignment. They stuck a $2500 price on it and after a few months gave it back to me. I think they probably opened everything up and inspected it. Should I take this thing back to a rigger and have them inspect it again? What is this thing worth? Everything is in excellent condition, maybe just a little dusty. Thanks for any advice! -- Micah Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #2 April 7, 2007 Worth? Now its less then $1000-1500 so asking $2500 probally didn't have a single person even look at it. The main is worth $250-300, the reserve is about $400-600 and depending on what year and config of the Racer you are looking at 300-500 max. Is the Cypres older then 12 years? If so its junk and can be only used for a trade in credit towards a new one. If its over 8 but less then 12 and hasn't had its inspection just think about giving it away to a new jumper since its going to need its 8 year inspection and thats about $260-280 with the new batteries installed. There is no demand for older gear like that so unless you are willing to sit on it waiting for the right person to come by and buy it, it might be better to let it go for less then its worth if you just want the money.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
padalcek 9 #3 April 7, 2007 hold on to it! a hundred years from now it will be worth a small fortune. will you still be there to collect it?Padalcek - CCO, HF-17 http://www.theflyinghellfish.com I'm not a real skydiver - but I do play one on dz.com. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
micah_v 0 #4 April 7, 2007 Yea, the Cypres was installed in 93 so I guess that qualifies it for junk status. I bought the rig in 91. Looking on the Cypres site I can get a woping $80 for trade in. So the question is should I sell this as separates? If so should I then take it all apart myself? The main is easy enough, not sure how the reserve is attached. Does anyone even jump this technology anymore? thanks, Micah Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #5 April 7, 2007 You could donate it to me, I will give it a loving home, and will jump it. I will send pictures. "The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbrown 26 #6 April 8, 2007 Just don't sell it to a newbie. Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 8 #7 April 8, 2007 QuoteJust don't sell it to a newbie. Why not? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #8 April 8, 2007 Agreed, it would be a great rig for a college student that can't afford new gear.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gearless_chris 1 #9 April 8, 2007 Isn't everybody supposed to start with an old rig with an old f-111 canopy?"If it wasn't easy stupid people couldn't do it", Duane. My momma said I could be anything I wanted when I grew up, so I became an a$$hole. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbrown 26 #10 April 8, 2007 QuoteQuoteJust don't sell it to a newbie. Why not? Well, having started myself with a B-12 harness container and a sleeved 28 ft 5TU mod and a 24 ft surplus chest mount reserve, I do recognize the economy of buying an old rig. (I also bought a 1964 original Paracommander in 1976 and held the thing together with a liberal helping of duct tape). But a lot of these kids want to start freeflying and a lot of the older gear's just not safe for that. And nobody else will buy these rigs BECAUSE THEY KNOW BETTER. And newbies don't. So they buy an aging rig that needs a lot of work and a main canopy that's ragged out and always will be. And then a few weeks later, when they're beginning to sober up about the "great deal" they got swindled with, they find a REAL rig they could've maybe afforded if they hadn't spent all their money on an old piece of "crap". It's not funny either. It's now 2007. The plain truth is by now there's plenty of 21st century gear in good condition on the used market. Gear that's got AADs, freefly friendly gear with tuck tabs instead of velcro, gear with BOC pilot chute pouches. I tell newbies to get used to the fact that gear ain't cheap and never will be and that anything from the last century just isn't good enough for them. Period. Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stayhigh 2 #11 April 8, 2007 obviously chris needs new rig.. btw i like your jump number... but seriously only thing that is worth anything is that raven.. or main to go gl in.......how much are you thinking about getting for your main????Bernie Sanders for President 2016 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #12 April 8, 2007 Quote Isn't everybody supposed to start with an old rig with an old f-111 canopy? Do they have to suck, because we did before? I can not see any reason to buy a low-cf canopy as a first main except he/she starting with accuracy or really broke. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 8 #13 April 8, 2007 [sarcasm]Wow, rigs circa 90s are "obsolete"... [/sarcasm] Actually seeing the condition of the gear withstanding, it doesn't sound like it would be a bad buy for someone that's interested in RW and doesn't have a lot of money to spend or for someone that wants an inexpensive second or third rig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 8 #14 April 8, 2007 m_v, As you see there are a lot of folk of the opinon that "since its old, its junk". Alas, I have to agree from the stand-point that you probably won't get $2500 for the complete rig. If the gear is still airworthy, it would get someone to the ground safe, but it wouldn't be "cool"... the cool factor is what sells used gear more then anything else these days. You can part it out here on the classifieds at DZ.com; make sure you get the $$ before you ship. PZone posted some suggested $$ for what the main, reserve & container might go for. Those #s look about right to me. If you really aren't worried about getting a lot of money for the rig, you could "low ball" the numbers a bit just to off the gear. Good luck. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #15 April 8, 2007 Quote Do they have to suck, because we did before? YES! It's in the S I M, look it up...and we always obey the rules! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
itllclear 1 #16 April 8, 2007 I just sold some old gear like that through DZ.com. It was sitting in my garage for years. I think 800-1000 is the right asking range. It's a good deal at that price and worth more to me in the bank than a pile of old gear I have no intent of using. I sold to someone out of town, so we agreed on a rigger to send the gear to, have her look it over and hold it until I got the check. Took a bit of communication, but it all worked out fine."Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there." "Your statement answered your question." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbrown 26 #17 April 8, 2007 Quote[sarcasm]Wow, rigs circa 90s are "obsolete"... [/sarcasm] Actually seeing the condition of the gear withstanding, it doesn't sound like it would be a bad buy for someone that's interested in RW and doesn't have a lot of money to spend or for someone that wants an inexpensive second or third rig. I know and jump with guys who are still jumping old Vectors and the early PD F-111 canopies. And they often don't have an AAD in their rig either. But these guys are also the original owners of their rigs and they've got hundreds, or thousands of jumps and they know and understand their gear and their choice of no AAD is theirs to make, though Al Kreuger's recent accident makes a strong case against anyone not using an AAD. The problem I have is that newbies don't have the judgement to understand the limitations of the older gear. They may not understand that ragged out velcro is useless. They might say "sure, sure" to a "belly flying only" advisory on a velcro'd rig, but the first time they want to sit up and skid around on their butts with their new friends, they're going to do it anyway. They might think of no AAD as a "savings" - I know one newbie with less than a hundred jumps, who's thinking of replacing his Sabre canopy with a Safire2, but he "can't afford" an AAD, not even a used Cypres. I told him as gently as I know how that his thinking needs an adjustment. As for canopies, aside from the fact that newbies are just better off starting out with ZP, the old F-111's are simply ragged out. They don't flare like they used to because they've got several hundred jumps on them and everybody (except newbies) knows this. If you've got the experience to nurse a decent landing out of a ragged out old canopy, then God bless you, go for it. But they don't and they shouldn't have to deal with it. As for reserves, all I'm gonna say is that thank God the riggers have the final word on whether they'll even pack the things - hopefully the responsible ones have the guts to condemn an old reserve that's past its prime. What would you rather see your kid driving around in, a five year old Honda Civic that's been inspected by a mechanic, or a beat old Ford Pinto that's leaking oil, brake, and transmission fluid all over the driveway ? I'm sure the Pinto costs less, but you want the brakes to work when your kid steps on the pedal. There are just too many AFFORDABLE rigs with tuck tabs, AADs, BOC pilot chutes, and ZP canopies on the used market for the kids to be taking a chance on beater rigs. And there are some SERIOUS ethical questions about why people keep trying to sell them the old beaters. Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 8 #18 April 8, 2007 So rather then help them out... teach them... the message you seem to be sending is "old gear is bad".... whatever. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spizzzarko 0 #19 April 8, 2007 Dude if you want to donate the cypres to me I am looking for out of date cypres units to do some hook turn testing with. I am looking to see if I can fire them with a high performance turn to landing. Let me know. If you are not using it, I could put it to good use. Thanks for your consideration Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slotperfect 7 #20 April 8, 2007 I removed the pointless pissing contest. havensiangst: please refresh your understanding of the Forum Rules: no PAs (none). tbrown: you and havensiangst please take your personal differences to PMs so the thread can continue on topic.Arrive Safely John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peckerhead 0 #21 April 8, 2007 I agree with Zig-Zag "Why not"? QuoteWhat would you rather see your kid driving around in, a five year old Honda Civic that's been inspected by a mechanic, or a beat old Ford Pinto that's leaking oil, brake, and transmission fluid all over the driveway ? I'm sure the Pinto costs less, but you want the brakes to work when your kid steps on the pedal. Pintos were made in the 70's so your analogy does not apply here. We are talking about a rig from the 90's. It would be more like buying a Honda from the early 90's that has been inspected by a mechanic (rigger) I am not a big racer fan but the reserve pin protection on that rig is much the same as it is now. Velcro can be replaced and tuck tabs can be added. I don't see how you can assume it is unsafe without even looking at it. 200 jumps is not that much. As far as the canopies 200 jumps on the falcon is not that much if it has been stored properly. Why do you assume it is "ragged out?" I used to jump a f-111 delta cloud that had over 2000 jumps on it and it flared just fine. Of course it was 100 sq. ft. larger than what I jump now. My raven 2 had 800 jumps on it before I sold it. You make it sound like we used to only get 200 jumps on a canopy before it was "ragged out" There is absolutely nothing wrong with an older Raven reserve if it has been stored properly, this one has never even been jumped! I inspected and packed a Raven reserve into my CRW rig last summer that was made in 1987 and it still looked brand new. I sold the canopy last fall and the buyer also had his rigger inspect it and had no problem repacking it. Obviously I had no problem jumping it. Now as far as the AAD that is a completely different debate that we have had over and over again. I don't jump with one and I haven't since I was a student using a sentinel on a belly wart. I did have a rig with a cypres for a brief time but I usually forgot to turn it on so I sold it to buy a new canopy. Anyway, this racer is cypres-ready so you could always put one in it. If this rig is as described it would be a good cheap starter rig for someone who can't afford to pony up the thousands it would cost to buy something newer. You could always upgrade the main to a z-p at a later date. If a newbie could pick up a rig like that for $800-1000 bucks it could get them in the air and honestly might be better than a "ragged out" student rental rig. I paid $350 for my first rig and made almost 200 jumps on it before I could afford to buy new. At the time that was the best $350 bucks I ever spent. Oh yeah! My first rig was a pinto and I know for a fact my parents did not want me jumping it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
faulknerwn 37 #22 April 8, 2007 I completely agree. I own 6 Racers - all from the 90's - and they work fine. Several of them I feel very comfortable freeflying with even. And I've got a PD 150 with definitely more than 500 jumps on it which lands beautifully. I jump that whenever I want a "non-thinking" canopy - i.e. its sunset and I'm tired and I've made 8 jumps that day. It is nowhere close to being worn out. You have to judge the gear on an individual basis. And its hard to find a complete <7 year old rig for a thousand bucks. For people who can afford the best, I encourage to buy the best. For those who can't, older equipment is still very usable. W Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #23 April 8, 2007 QuoteQuote Do they have to suck, because we did before? YES! It's in the S I M, look it up...and we always obey the rules! Can you help me out? In which chapter can I find it? Should every one start jumping with round main, because I did? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gearless_chris 1 #24 April 8, 2007 My riggers charge $10 to replace the velcro every year on my old Vector. I only have problems with the riser covers in headdown position if I maintain the postion for a length of time. The student gear I learned on was a falcon 300, .75 wingload at the time, it was fine even though some of them had several thousand jumps on them. I could tell the difference between the oldest and newest though. I have 3 jumps on my Raven 1 reserve(1.3 WL) and it was fine, but it only has 5 jumps total on it now. F-111 is fine as long as you stay under 1:1 WL. "Beater" rigs are great for new people that don't know for sure what they want yet."If it wasn't easy stupid people couldn't do it", Duane. My momma said I could be anything I wanted when I grew up, so I became an a$$hole. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #25 April 8, 2007 Don't be fooled to believe the Velcro on a racer the size of the one in the original post, will stay shut when freeflying or doing freestyle, even if it's new. When the entire side comes open, the entire riser comes out. The excess lines in the main container get pulled out as well. When the toggle comes off the riser, the result is not good. I've watched this happened far too many times. I've seen crazy malfunctions from this very scenario. That vector of yours isn't safe to freefly in either by the way. Personal opinion. The rig in the original post is probably ok. However, the following opinion is hard to debate. It is not suitable for anything but belly to earth flying. If the person purchasing it will actually fly belly to earth and not delve into freeflying or freestyle right away, it's fine. Falcons are good canopies. Note, if it has a cross connected RSL, modify it to a single or just take it off. No matter how much literature you read on the subject, they are not safe. It he risers are type 17, be sure they are reinforced. If they are not then they are not suitable for use. Good luck!My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
