Landing direction

[virgin-burner 1]

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what ? that we meet ?

nope, the outdrinking.. on 2nd thought, u're russian..

hey, u know there's hellaherb the coming weekend!? get your ass up here!

i even got a shift at the bar friday night..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[GLIDEANGLE 1]

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it sucks, they say Marines guard it but have a picture of a soldier, FAIL!

Of course you are correct. I was very aware of that error when I made my post. However, I was trying to be POSITIVE. Random sniping at minor errors undermines the EXCELLENT job the DZO did with that video.

CDR Jim McGraw, USN, NC

The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

[riggerrob 558]

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Do you have a tetrahedron or arrow?... idiot proof indicator, but having been an idiot myself a time or two, I'm for making it simple.

don't forget the arrow means different things for different people.... sometimes landing direction (land With the arrow), sometimes wind direction (against the arrow).

......................................................................

That just says that some people cannot read an arrow.
Arrows always say the same thing whether an instructor is steering them or not.

If there is no instructor by the arrow, the arrow is pointing into the wind. You should land the same direction the arrow is pointing.

If the arrow is not pointing in the same direction as the surface winds, winds are too light to swing the arrow and winds are too light to affect landings, ergo you can safely land facing the same direction as the arrow.

If an instructor is steering the arrow, you should land the same direction the arrow is pointing.

If you don't want to land the same direction the arrow is pointing, you are a hazard to everyone else in the air and you should go jump somewhere else.

[fasted3 0]

You're right. Learn to read an arrow and tetrahedron. If you don't know, you need to find out.
I think an arrow is better for not confusing people. For some reason people have more trouble with the tet. One place puts a happy face on the back and tells jumpers they want to see that face. I think they have fewer problems because of it.
People that don't want to follow the arrow in the main landing area should have other places to go, ie: student area or unrestriced areas.
I made this thread mostly about the main landing area because that is where almost all of the serious problems I've seen have happened. Almost all of them have involved people flying 180 degrees from each other at low altitude on light and variable wind days. Almost none of them resulted in a collision or injury. In this case, almost isn't good enough. The more close calls there are, the more accidents there will be. A person holding the arrow, when necessary, can make a difference.
I agree with your statement:
'If the arrow is not pointing in the same direction as the surface winds, winds are too light to swing the arrow and winds are too light to affect landings, ergo you can safely land facing the same direction as the arrow.'
This is the one that causes problems. Most people follow it but some don't. More would if there was a guy holding it and they knew he would be on their ass if they didn't do what he was clearly directing them to do.
I am putting this out there as an idea. If it's good, I'd make it a recommendation. If it would help a DZ to reduce incidents by using it, then I think they should do it. I would not make it a regulation as it would not apply to all DZ's and I don't like regulations anyway. I do think there are too many cases of chaos on the LZ, and a fresh look at the problem can't hurt.

But what do I know?

[fasted3 0]

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what ? that we meet ?

nope, the outdrinking.. on 2nd thought, u're russian..

hey, u know there's hellaherb the coming weekend!? get your ass up here!

i even got a shift at the bar friday night..

Thanks for the update on your social life.
Any thoughts on landing direction?

But what do I know?

[erdnarob 1]

At my DZ, I have a tall wind blade (12") installed and at the top of it we have attached 20-30 ft bright color fabric tapes.
That very sensitive set up gives the precise direction of the wind at canopy level when landing even for speed as low as 2-3 MPH. A wind blade seen from above at 1000 ft is not so obvious for giving the landing direction but with those tapes, what a difference. Now confusion is kept at minimum since you know that the tapes are light and "float" on the downwind side.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[docjohn 0]

Very important topic and its a personal pet peeve of mine as I've seen too many close calls. It seems to me that there are only a few options (for no wind days):

Option 1). First one down sets the landing direction (I hate this one)
Option 2). Use the tetrahedron (better)
Option 3). Designate a landing direction before boarding the plane (best choice IMHO)
Option 4)- Free for all. Just figure it out under canopy. (I see this all the time, fortuately I haven't seen anyone get killed yet)

Pros and cons -

1). First one down sets the landing direction. This sucks. At a large boogie, I watched the first 3 jumpers land simultaneously in 3 different directions. The rest of the load had no idea which way to land. I chose to land WAY out.

2). Use the tetrahedron. It ok if you have one. Sometimes they turn mysteriously. As other posters have stated, sometimes jumper misread these. Still not a bad choice.

3). Designate a landing direction before boarding the plane. I like this one best but....keep reading

Perfect example, just yesterday. No winds. We clearly designate landing to the west. Everyone agrees. Under canopy, the windsock is indicating a wind out of the east at probably 2 - 3 mph. Half the loaded landed east, half landed west. Then the arguements began. I heard comments like "Hey, I though we were supposed to land to the west?" and "Yeah we designated west but the windsock showed east so that's what I did". Somebody is going to get hurt badly or killed.

My preferred solution on no wind or light wind days: pick a landing direction. Stick with it. Period.

Better to land downwind of crosswind than to have a collision.

Doc
http://www.manifestmaster.com/video

[popsjumper 2]

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... Half the loaded landed east, half landed west. Then the arguements began. I heard comments like "Hey, I though we were supposed to land to the west?" and "Yeah we designated west but the windsock showed east so that's what I did".

The answer to that is so very simple...
"OK, you're grounded until you learn to follow directions...all types of directions."

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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If the arrow is not pointing in the same direction as the surface winds, winds are too light to swing the arrow and winds are too light to affect landings, ergo you can safely land facing the same direction as the arrow.

Whaaaa???? Common sense and logic?

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If you don't want to land the same direction the arrow is pointing, you are a hazard to everyone else in the air and you should go jump somewhere else.

I don't agree with this at all. We can educate, persuade and provide other means to get around this.

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If you refuse to land the same direction the arrow is pointing, you are a hazard to everyone else in the air and you should go jump somewhere else.

This I totally support.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[pilot-one 0]

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So if the arrow is the rule, it is your job as a DZO (air control manager,) to make sure the arrow is pointing in the right way for me to land

I can see the value in that for big ways, where a certain canopy experience level is expected. But for the average weekend day at the average dz? Or for a boogie? Don't see it working so well.

What if the wind direction changes while people are landing? Should the arrow be changed as well? What if it isn't changed and someone gets hurt landing downwind? What if it is changed and two canopies collide? Far too many openings for liability for the dz and the person tasked with pointing the arrow.

Why not be a big grown up skydiver and determine for yourself which way you want to land? Don't like the direction others are landing in the main landing area? Land elsewhere. Speak up and preplan a landing direction with the others on your load - before you get on the airplane. Fly your canopy such that no one else will be on final when you are and it shouldn't be an issue anyway. Refuse to be in the air with people that you know are sketchy under canopy, or in chaotic situations (ie boogies).

Am I responsible for my safety or not? I think I am, and that includes choosing the place and direction that I think is the safest for me to land.

With all due respect this approach will get you killed. This behavior is consistent with what is happening at my dropzone lately. Free for all land what ever direction you want cluster fuck. If the wind is light and variable EVERYBODY has to land in the same dircection. I think there should be a standard for this set by the USPA. I quit jumping on no wind days because I value my life and the fact that my dropzone refuses to realize there is a serious issue that is being neglected.
Personally, unless there's some kind of direction indicator, I think the first jumper down sets the pattern. Any thing else becomes too complicated.

[popsjumper 2]

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...If the wind is light and variable EVERYBODY has to land in the same dircection.

Well, IMHO, that's true regardless of wind speed.

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I think there should be a standard for this set by the USPA.

Landing patterns don't fill the bill?

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I quit jumping on no wind days because I value my life and the fact that my dropzone refuses to realize there is a serious issue that is being neglected.

I applaud this. Wish everyone had that much common sense.

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Personally, unless there's some kind of direction indicator, I think the first jumper down sets the pattern. Any thing else becomes too complicated.

FMD is less complicated than a set landing direction????? FMD is what is so complicated and what causes so many problems.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Baksteen 84]

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Personally, unless there's some kind of direction indicator, I think the first jumper down sets the pattern. Any thing else becomes too complicated.

FMD is less complicated than a set landing direction????? FMD is what is so complicated and what causes so many problems.

I think the problem is that there's different situations and that no solution will work at every DZ.

My DZ uses the set landing pattern because the winds are only variable when negligible (0-2 m/s).
I landed downwind (accoridng to the T) yesterday (wind=2 m/s) because I had a jump student behind me whom I didn't want to confuse any further. Only difference for me was that after a smooth landing I had to run really hard while thinking I'm not gonna fall over.. I'm not gonna fall over.

However, while jumping at a certain American DZ, the rule was to land North, unless the winds are strong and dictate South - but FMD sets the pattern.
I confess that I was nervous the first few times I jumped there, but when i saw that even the winds around my personal limit (9m/s) can change between boarding time and jump run, I understood the sense of applying the FMD rule - at that DZ.

Whatever solution is applied, the problem is people not using their common sense.
Chasing windsocks while coming straight in, or seeming to land one way but doing a 180 on final and thus necessitating all other canopies to change their pattern at the last minute is what makes the sky unsafe.
Or worse, some people not changing their pattern after the FMD blew it and landing in opposite directions..

IMO it's up to the DZ to enforce the rules they themselves set. First by a (public) talking-to, after several offences a grounding.

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[billvon 2,400]

>FMD is what is so complicated and what causes so many problems.

"FMD" is another way of saying "only one landing direction, no matter what."

There are a great many good ways of setting the landing pattern - via a tetrahedron, a pre-declared direction, an arrow. But the underlying rule is that you cannot, under any circumstances, land into someone else. That means that if someone else lands the wrong way before you, you can't land there. He may well be wrong - and by all means, yell at him/ground him if he is - but during the landing, survival is paramount, and that means that you can't land a different direction than other people in the same area.

[popsjumper 2]

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...There are a great many good ways of setting the landing pattern - via a tetrahedron, a pre-declared direction, an arrow. But the underlying rule is that you cannot, under any circumstances, land into someone else. That means that if someone else lands the wrong way before you, you can't land there. He may well be wrong - and by all means, yell at him/ground him if he is - but during the landing, survival is paramount, and that means that you can't land a different direction than other people in the same area.

Abso-freakin'-lutely, Bill...Thanks for highlighting that.

In my mind, what complicates the FMD rule is that for that landing area the landing direction is not set until way late in the game leaving little time and altitude for decision making and alternate landing set-up if needed. It distracts from the need to ensure clear air space at a time when the congestion is greatest.

If I jumped at a FMD DZ, I would only do so if there were alternate landing areas that I could use to avoid, as much as possible, the need for those last-minute changes in landing direction. Call me an old fart and I'd say, "Yes, a conservative old fart".

We are very fortunate here in that we have three separate landing areas. One Main for a pre-designated landing direction, one Alternate for doing whatever you need to do to land safely and one HP for the swoopers. My only regret is that the video and AFFI who swoop have taken up the alternate landing area for swooping in disregard for the youngsters and others who may need that area for real needs.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[phoenixlpr 0]

Guys! Gimme a break! Why do you think that a disciplinary problem can be solved with new rules?

You can define chaos as actions without consequences.

Wining about landing direction is a good indicator for lack of canopy control skills.

[virgin-burner 1]

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Guys! Gimme a break! Why do you think that a disciplinary problem can be solved with new rules?

You can define chaos as actions without consequences.

Wining about landing direction is a good indicator for lack of canopy control skills.

i was told that some time ago; actually any whining about being cut off or having ruined someones swoop proves a lack of canopy skills..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[Baksteen 84]

Wrong.

Whining about landing direction is a good indicator for presence of out-of-control idiots.

I shouldn't need my mad skillz to make a safe straight-in landing in the main landing area. Not every single jump in any case.
What about the students who haven't got skills yet?
Should they be left to fend for themselves as well?

Instead, use your skills to land according to the pattern. Or to set the pattern in a (to other jumpers) predictable way.

Besides, stricter rules give the S&TA's/I's/DZO's/whomever something to use against the loose cannons (read: assholes).

Don't like it? Don't tell me to f*ck off and start my own DZ, but do so yourself.

I don't know you and am not saying you fall in this category, but I'm sure you know people who do.

Yes, you struck a nerve wth me.

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[virgin-burner 1]

there was this dude at the dz last year; when we were about to board, he started brabbling about what landing direction we'd use.. he got confused looks from everyone and someone asked the question: "did or didnt you get a briefing prior to manifesting!?"

obviously it was an idiot that couldnt manage the few rules we have..
give him more rules and let 'em think even less, i like that idea..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[Baksteen 84]

First question: Did he?

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[phoenixlpr 0]

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I shouldn't need my mad skillz to make a safe straight-in landing in the main landing area. Not every single jump in any case.
What about the students who haven't got skills yet?
Should they be left to fend for themselves as well?

You should be able to land in any direction in moderate winds. With high winds even the complete idiots are landing into the the winds.
Yes, your indicator is on.
Once my S&TA told me that if I want to land in the swoop area there is only 2 directions are allowed there parallely in line with the swoop pond: either east-west or west-east.

The hundred ways landing is usually happening if the is almost no winds, but its changing and some smart people start chasing the wind sock or they just start winning because the winds sock does not hang in the "right" way where they were landing.

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Instead, use your skills to land according to the pattern. Or to set the pattern in a (to other jumpers) predictable way.

Or you should learn how to read other people's pattern. Real swoopers fly disciplined pattern to landing. That is the only way to get consistent and accurate landing.

[Fast 0]

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there was this dude at the dz last year; when we were about to board, he started brabbling about what landing direction we'd use.. he got confused looks from everyone and someone asked the question: "did or didnt you get a briefing prior to manifesting!?"

obviously it was an idiot that couldnt manage the few rules we have..
give him more rules and let 'em think even less, i like that idea..

this isn't about rules.

It's about an utter lack of common sense. People doing stupid shit in the landing area cause they don't know any better and don't realize it's one of the leading causes of people getting killed in this sport!

Suck it up and accept that there are some pretty dangerous people flying around in the air with you, and for those people we need to have some good guidlines. At least then if they can't follow it you have a good reason to leave them sitting on the ground.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[virgin-burner 1]

yes, there are idiots with no common sense. the more rules you give them, the more they will break. give them a few, and this is the killerpoint: ENFORCE them!

and if it means to ground the competition swooper for two weeks if he's downwind-swooping AGAIN, then you better get off your arse and kick some!

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[popsjumper 2]

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this isn't about rules.

It's about an utter lack of common sense. People doing stupid shit in the landing area cause they don't know any better and don't realize it's one of the leading causes of people getting killed in this sport!

Suck it up and accept that there are some pretty dangerous people flying around in the air with you, and for those people we need to have some good guidlines. At least then if they can't follow it you have a good reason to leave them sitting on the ground.

Hot damn Jumpin' Jesus and a pot of peas...you do have a way of getting to the root cause of it all.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Fast 0]

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yes, there are idiots with no common sense. the more rules you give them, the more they will break. give them a few, and this is the killerpoint: ENFORCE them!

and if it means to ground the competition swooper for two weeks if he's downwind-swooping AGAIN, then you better get off your arse and kick some!

I know... I know... Everyone should just be able to do whatever the fuck they want. That's really the best way to handle things....

For what it's worth, I have found that the competition orientated swoopers are really good at following whatever rules exist for a landing area.

The people that I see the most problems with are the ones between 50-500 jumps who think they have everything figured out yet chase the windsock all day long in 1-2mph winds. These are the people that I am worried about.

FWIW, i refuse to accept that first man down is a sane way of dealing with landing direction in the landing area. Mostly because it takes someone actually landing to set the direction, then everyone else has to scramble to figure out a pattern. It also gets really confusing if someone misses the direction the first person landed and lands a different way, then up above some people think it's one way and other think it's another.

I am a huge supporter of either a tetrahedron that wont change until the wind becomes a little more significant or a set landing direction system controlled by dz staff.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[fasted3 0]

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I am a huge supporter of either a tetrahedron that wont change until the wind becomes a little more significant or a set landing direction system controlled by dz staff.

Thank you.
The difficulty in this is the involvement of dz staff.
Proper maintenence of the system is vital. The first time people are directed in an obviously wrong heading you have a problem.
Instruction and enforcement needs may require additional involvement as well.
That does not make this an impossible goal, and indeed is what I proposed for this thread. If implimentation is the only thing holding it back then let's look for an easier way to do it. Is there anything we as jumpers can do to help?
How about an arrow that can be set from manifest?
Too complicated, or expensive, or something?
Probably so, but something to think about.
One poster suggested I stop going to boogies or give up my right to complain. I'm not complaining. I'm saying what I've seen work and not work. I'm trying to do something about it by using this forum, for whatever that's worth.
But yes, I am cautious of boogies. I do prefer visiting DZs that have well orginized landing areas over those that don't. I'd like to be able to go anywhere, easily find out what the conditions are like there, get direction on what is expected of me, and then do it. I'd like every jumper there to do the same. If we all do, less people will get hurt.
Landing directions that start off with one thing, but not if this, and maybe that, and of course something else are likely to cause problems.
First man down is simple at least, but it doesn't work. Setting it on the plane only works when the wind is blowing the right direction when people get to the landing area.
Land this way or else works the best.
Now let's make 'this way' the best possible direction.
Make it big, obvious, and simple to read.
Enforce it's use.
To do our part:
Let's learn how to land our canopies in all conditions and not be afraid of light crosswind or downwind landings. Make sure you know what to do, especially at a new DZ. Go jump, have fun.

But what do I know?