PIA and Advanced Aerospace Designs (Vigil)

[riggerrob 558]

Quote

Slightly off topic, but what patents does Airtec (pr the other aad manufacturers) hold? The cutter is patent free since the early 80's if I remember correctly.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

... depends whose lawyer you ask!
Hee!
Hee!
This reminds me of a conversation with FXC reps, when they brought Astra prototypes to Rigging Innovations during the mid-1990s. "Airtec has threatened to sue us over violating AAD cutter patents. We replied that we hold multiple patents covering reefing line cutters for multiple ejection seats and cargo chutes."
Usually threatening to reveal "prior art" shuts up ... patent-infringement law suits.

[billvon 2,402]

>No where does this mission statement talk about improving safety
>in skydiving for the customers - or promoting the sport.

Right, why should it? After all, their most lucrative sales are generally to the military, not to sport skydivers. PIA is an association of manufacturers, not an association of instructors, skydivers, DZO's and organizers.

There is a need for an organization like this, because what sport skydivers want is often in conflict with what gear manufacturers (and the riggers who service that gear) want. For example:

Manufacturers want clear FAA rules on what skydivers may do with their gear. Skydivers want to do whatever they want to their gear.

Manufacturers want to protect themselves from lawsuits. Skydivers want to be able to sue manufacturers.

Manufacturers want to maximize profits. Skydivers want great new gear for less money.

Thus the need for a separate organization to represent the needs of manufacturers.

[darkwing 4]

This thread is fascinating. The ONLY solid information we have is that they were denied membership. We were also given a list of reasons why this may happen in general, all of them fairly benign in this context, yet posters persist on assuming something very underhanded happened.

I find it difficult to believe that a broad spectrum of voters denied membership for the reasons that many posters assume to be the case.

Of course, being a primate, I am curious, especially now. But if the rules forbid talking about it, and you accuse the organization of nefarious behavior, you want further misbehavior by having them talk about something that the rules forbid?

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[councilman24 36]

I'll respond in detail later.

But, it has always been a group that had to vote in a member from the earliest founding. The executive session on membership is the only part of any meeting not open to the public. Just to be clear, that session and the vote is of ALL the voting members present. Not the executive committee. Robert's Rules of Order calls it an executive session. That's so members can feel free to discuss prospective members freely. It's roberts rules of order that make an executive session confedential, not the PIA bylaws. I refer you to the code of professional responsibility for our stand on safety. Its all there from products to student training. The by-laws address anti trust activities. NO ONE is dening anybody's right to enter the market place and compete. But also, NO ONE as a RIGHT to join a private organization, especially if members don't feel they live up to the values of that organization.

And I am not a PIA representative, I am a PIA member. Only the President and Executive committe can represent PIA as group. And unless PIA takes a vote on a motion PIA HAS NO position on any individual issue. Individual members do.

We used to have a sport promotion committee. But it died for lack of interest by the members. DZ's who are members for the most part don't participate. PIA is an organization COMPLETELY run by volunteers. We have NO PAID STAFF. If no one steps to the plate nothing can happen. We discussed reviving the Sport promotion committee but there was no one willing to do it.

Many of your assumptions about the operations are incorrect. Airtec is not "one of the biggest sponsors of PIA" There are companies that volunteer their employees and the owners volunteer to a greater or lesser extent. ParaGear, Sunpath, and Performance Textiles are the biggest non monitary contributors to PIA.

There are other errors in your assumption that I'll either try to address later or we can talk about personally.

Please remember, all of this is my personal opinion and I am NOT a good old boy manufacturer. I relish the fact that I can piss anybody off in PIA or the industry because I don't make my living skydiving.

You probably answered you own question.

I qoute "I believe that, a trade organization for equipment manufactures with a focus on training and education to riggers and other consumers, should allow all companies to join so as long as they pay their dues and follow a code of ethics. If they should not follow the code of ethics, the company should be able to go thru an open arbitration or appeal process."

Any prospective member is welcome to address the executive membership session. NONE did in Reno.


Public document from the PIA web site. Emphasis added. All of the bold section refer to quality and safety (as possible in this sport).

Code of Professional Responsibility

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Parachute Industry Association is dedicated to the promotion of the highest principles of honesty, integrity, fairness and professional behavior in all of our dealings with our customers, the public at large, and amongst ourselves. We are an organization based in the United States with an international membership contingent and scope. Our ethical solidarity is only as strong as the cumulative quality of our individual members. Our membership extends beyond the bounds of most federal, state, and local customs of acceptable behavior; there may be issues on which we, as individual members, will disagree. It is imperative that all of our disagreements, arguments, accusations and methods of resolution be kept within the bounds of our organization. It is essential that we approach the outside world with a clear, common, and unified voice.

The purpose and goal of the Parachute Industry Association's Ethics Committee is to compose and maintain a working Code of Professional Responsibility, provide guidance to our membership, and to provide a forum for membership to voice opinions of violation of our Code of Professional Responsibility.

Specifically, we pledge to respect and follow these guidelines:

Each of us must strive to achieve excellence in the products and services we offer. It is imperative that we take steps to understand and avoid any situations which would project our industry in a less than positive way to those with whom we deal.

We must respect and protect the integrity of the property rights of others, whether intellectual property, trademarks, patents or copyrights. It is difficult if not impossible to conduct our business without making public some of the things we have worked hard to individually develop and earn.

We must know, understand, respect and obey existing laws having jurisdiction over our business activities. This pledge of compliance applies to laws extending from the international level down to and including of our own Standard Operating Procedures.

We must maintain a strong commitment to service. Our professional responsibilities must be bound by our commitment to perform as we have agreed or contracted. The quality of our work is only as strong as our commitment to take personal responsibility for the work which we perform.

We will avoid any falsification of records, including parachute maintenance records, aircraft logbooks and maintenance records, certification records, component testing and laboratory reports, and any other document alteration intended to mislead or deceive.

We must refrain from stating, publishing, or otherwise posting product or services claims which are not consistent with accuracy, and cannot be substantiated, including advertisements, promotional efforts, performance specifications, compliance certification, or any other false claims which are perceived by our organization to be misleading and deceitful.

Member manufacturers of primary components must operate with a quality assurance system which has the capability to effectively handle recall of systems or components as necessary.

Use of parachute equipment will not be recommended outside of the manufacturer's published operational window. Parachute components will not be represented in any manner which is inconsistent with the manufacturer's intended purpose of that component.

We will refrain from providing a service or an opinion on matters which are outside the scope of our education, experience, or expertise.

For our students, we will follow a comprehensive course of instruction which is consistent with accepted common good and safe practice in the parachute community.

When providing equipment for use in parachute activities, we will provide proper, safe and airworthy equipment which is appropriate to the operation.

We will provide appropriate airlift which is maintained and operated in a safe and airworthy manner by authorized and appropriately rated personnel.

We will utilize only those modifications to aircraft intended to facilitate parachuting which have been done in accordance with accepted industry practice and which carry appropriate authorizations (i.e. inflight door, installation of steps, porches, handles and appendages.)

We will only introduce fuel into any aircraft if that fuel is intended and authorized for use into the powerplant of that particular aircraft. Only properly filtered fuel which is drawn from controlled and uncontaminated sources will be used.

We must recognize and avoid operational conflicts of interest which adversely effect our ability to conduct safe business practices.

A member of the Parachute Industry Association who is convicted, by a court or tribunal having jurisdiction, of conduct that is in conflict of this Code, may be subject to additional punishment from the PIA. This action could include actions available in accordance with the by-laws of the Parachute Industry Association and Roberts' Rules of Order.



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Original Issue
PIA Ethics Commitee

February 11, 1996
George Galloway, Chairman

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[USPA 0]

Well, that one is expired I believe...

The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

[PhreeZone 15]

US patents should be good for what ever is longer; 17 years from the grant date or 20 years from the application date. That puts it at expiring in 2008 from the application date.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[USPA 0]

I thought US patents issued before 1995, expired 17 years after filing, that's my mistake then. Did FXC pay license fee for Astra then? Else the patent would be void too, if I'm not mistaken.

The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

[PhreeZone 15]

U.S. patents in effect on December 8, 1994, and patents issued on applications filed before June 8, 1995, will be entitled to the longer term of 17 years from the date of grant; or 20 years from the date of filing of the original application. Thus, any patent which was in effect on December 8, 1994, or any patent application currently on file, may have a term longer than 17 years.



http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/doc/general/index.html

What Is a Patent?
A patent for an invention is the grant of a property right to the inventor, issued by the United States Patent and Trademark Office. Generally, the term of a new patent is 20 years from the date on which the application for the patent was filed in the United States or, in special cases, from the date an earlier related application was filed, subject to the payment of maintenance fees. U.S. patent grants are effective only within the United States, U.S. territories, and U.S. possessions. Under certain circumstances, patent term extensions or adjustments may be available.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[tdog 0]

I respect and appreciate your detailed response.

Quote

But also, NO ONE as a RIGHT to join a private organization, especially if members don't feel they live up to the values of that organization.

That is fair.

There are multiple levels of organizations out there. They range from super exclusive country clubs where business deals are conducted to contractual alliances between specific companies like cell phone equipment manufactures and carriers, to clubs anyone can join for free, to trade groups where anyone who pays dues and follows the ethics of the organization can join.

As an apprentice rigger, an avid skydiver, and someone who wants to learn as much as possible - I seek organizations that host trade shows and community groups, that allow all parties to participate on an even playing field so I can get all the information out there, not a filtered subset.

Since PIA instead appears to be a members only alliance of manufactures, designed to promote their products and promote the supply chain of raw materials with efficiency, it simply "does not address my concerns as an educated consumer." I am sure the trade shows are awesome, but now I understand more about them.

That is my point. I am sure I don't have all the facts why AAD was denied entry. Perhaps it is simple. Perhaps it is controversial... But, now I understand that PIA is a members only club, and I will use the information I get from them with a better incite into the agenda of the organization.

[pilotdave 0]

Quote

I am sure the trade shows are awesome, but now I understand more about them.

Ya know non-member companies can promote their products at the PIA symposium, right? Vigil included...

Dave

[PhreeZone 15]

Vigil, CYPRES, MARS and I think even the Argus were at PIA with trade booths.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[dorbie 0]

tdog, thanks for your articulate posts. They reflect my views. This is a real eyeopener w.r.t. PIA. They can pretend there's no stink wafting from the gates of their country club all they like. At the end of the day there's a judgement call here, one might understand the exclusion of some unknown or shady company (your comments about participation notwithstanding), but this is the exclusion of a major manufacturer of a popular AAD behind closed doors and simply does not pass the smell test. This sheds new light on PIA, from my perspective.

[councilman24 36]

Their are very few things that membership allows,

One, to use the logo,

Two, to vote in the plenary session if a full or sustaining member,

Three, to serve as a committee chair if a full or sustaining member, READ WORK HARD

Four, to serve on and vote in committee if at any level of membership, Read work hard

Five, to pay dues to the organization.

Six, to attend a closed session of the plenary session if a full or sustaining member. The only closed sessions are for membership applications.

Seven, discounted and preferred location booth space at the Symposium READ PAY MORE MONEY to the organization and event you volunteer to.

Non members may attend any meeting of PIA other than the membership application session, about 40 minutes for a 2.5 day meeting.

Provide any discussion or input they desire at any meeting, including membership application consideration.

Attend PIA symposium as an exhibitor, speaker, or attendee.

Use all of the public documents including test standards that PIA has.

Be a member of the PIA Rigger Forum.

The expressed reason for the PIA symposium to exist is to educate riggers. It grew out of the Riggers conference that was held for several years in Muskogee (sp?) OK at the nationals. The trade show grew along side the seminars. But as said before ANYONE can exhibit at the trade show, member or not. The only limitation is space and we've done our best to expand the space to meet the need. I don't believe anybody was turned away because of space (the only reason anybody is turned away) either in 2005 or 2007. And not many before. Then is was first come first serve. Members to get preferred choices of booth location based on a points system the takes into account membership length and volunteer efforts.

Anybody is welcome to submit a speaker application and almost all are accepted. Vigil was unveiled in a seminar as was the Cypres before Aittec was a member. So was the Skyhook. There are a very few, less than 5, speakers either past speakers or applicants who wouldn't be welcome again. And those are because they are either to silly or too blatantly commercial. Seminars are to educate not to sell.

The Symposium is not a members only event. It is open to all and contitutes a lot of time, effort, and money by volunteers to put it on. PIA does make money from the sympsoium. But it supports the operations of PIA. PIA was the largest single contributor to the National Skydiving Museum, a completely separate organization, until Bill Ottly gave them a donation in their will. Now PIA is second.

You seem to be making assumptions, inferences, and opinions without all of the information. Your certainly welcome to do that. The next PIA business meeting is in Nashville in Sept. You and anyone else are welcome to attend.
You wrote "...,to trade groups where anyone who pays dues and follows the ethics of the organization can join" This IS the description of PIA. What causes you to think it isn't?

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[IanHarrop 37]

Quote

tdog, thanks for your articulate posts. They reflect my views. This is a real eyeopener w.r.t. PIA. They can pretend there's no stink wafting from the gates of their country club all they like. At the end of the day there's a judgement call here, one might understand the exclusion of some unknown or shady company (your comments about participation notwithstanding), but this is the exclusion of a major manufacturer of a popular AAD behind closed doors and simply does not pass the smell test. This sheds new light on PIA, from my perspective.

It appears to me that lacking real information about why a company was denied membership, you choose to decide something sinister is afoot and then condemn the organization for those imagined/unknown sinister acts.

Maybe there is someting you don't know about the situation and maybe its not sinister.

That is the other choice....

"Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy

[dorbie 0]

I've never said anything sinister was necessarily afoot. I understand your point though, there may be good reasons I'm not privvy to. AAD should be informed of those reasons in detail.

I've given the posts by Terry Urban more thought and offer my apologies to PIA et.al.

I don't have a dog in this hunt and they have a right to run their organization as they see fit and I can see the advantages and disadvantages of their chosen charter. Ultimately I have more faith in the integrity of their membership than my posts reflected.

[councilman24 36]

I appreciate your open mind. And please realize that I often disagree with the founding members of PIA, the executive committee, the president, and other members. But, I make my case and am always listened to. I can't make any PIA member more than a few dollars but I am welcomed in the debate.

I spend more on my PIA membership between dues and travel than I make from the industry. But I'm a member because I believe PIA is important, not only to the big guys but also to the part time rigger and others.

I've been a member of the City council in my city, portagemi.gov, for over 9 years. Many citizens believe that we make backroom deals with developers, businesses and others. They believe I'm truthful but are very surprised when I tell them that I have had exactly one conversation with a developer about a project coming before the Council in 9 years. And the start of the conversation from me was "we can talk about this at the council meeting." He provided some information he wanted me to have and said thank you for listening. Other developers, not so honorable, have threatened citizens whose property they wanted with the City Council, saying we would do what they wanted and get the property for them. These were out right lies, not even possible, and most of the Council actually had contempt for this developer already because of his tactics. But the citizens believed the developer. We sometimes have "crusaders" or one issue canidates elected to the Council. The quickly learn were not the bad guys and must make decisions based on law and not emotion. It seems to be a common practice for people to expect the worst of organizations and political bodies they have little knowledge of.

The "wronged" party is not always innocent, the underdog doesn't always deserve to win, and conspiracies do not run the world. All based on "its unclear why the membership was denied."

AND, while there are many private events during the symposium sponsored by friends I have developed in PIA I have NEVER tried to attend an event I wasn't invited to. And would expect to be asked to leave if I did.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[fcajump 153]

For what it is worth, I am a member of PIA and, like Terry, I spend much of my rigging earnings on going to what PIA events I can. (Unlike Terry, I have not had the time or longevity he has had in PIA.) But I've seen several things that I would like to pass along...

To me, I am a simple part-time Sr. Rigger and fun jumper. However, when I have sat in on meetings, I have been invited to give my opinion and specifically asked for input on topics by industry leaders BECAUSE they wanted the input of a rigger in the field. A visiting (non-member!) fun jumper (not even a rigger) was warmly welcomed to the meeting I attended last Sept by major manufacturers and ask to feel free to participate in the discussions. When he had something he felt like telling them, they stopped and listened. Even my wife was warmly welcomed and ask about the 8 jumps she made over 10 years ago.

Terry is one of the hardest working members there, but certainly not the only one. I take his comments at face value because I have been to the meetings and seen what he is saying as true.

For what its worth, I have no idea why AAD was denied. And I cast no inditement their way. But I believe that if they were denied, there was (right or wrong) the feeling amoung the members voting, that there was a REASON that they did not meet the membership criteria.

Yes they are competitors, and yes they will argue till they are blue in the face as to why their product, testing, design, mfg plant, materials, etc... are better than someone else's. But I've also never met a better/nicer group to sit with and discuss the industry past and future.

If you want to KNOW about PIA, and stop guessing at what goes on... SHOW UP!! You don't have to be a member to attend the meetings. We need more jumpers/riggers involved. Good as he is, Terry can't speak for us all and do everything for us.
You want the focus to be more about the jumper, FINE. Join and volunteer to move the adjenda that way.

Besides, its fun to watch the way Terry pushes the mfgs around when he gets pi$$ed...
Consider this: Why do you folks think that (in the US) main risers aren't condidered part of the TSO'ed system...??? Its because Terry told them (quite clearly) why that was not a good idea... And they LISTENED TO HIM!!! It would have made the mfg's more money if the main risers were TSO'ed items and HAD to be bought from a member of the "club". But common sense came to them in the form of a volunteer/part-time rigger and fun jumper.

Why do they listen to Terry (and occasionally to me)? Because we showed up. That's it.

Want to know what goes on?
Want to be listened to (in your turn)?
Want to hear what goes on in those rooms?
Show up!
JW

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...