PIA and Advanced Aerospace Designs (Vigil)

[ryoder 1,384]

April issue of "Skydiving"; Top of page 5; Can anyone shed some light on what is happening here? (Or does this belong in Speakers Corner?)

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[PhreeZone 15]

Care to post some more details for those of us that don't get Skydiving?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[ryoder 1,384]

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Care to post some more details for those of us that don't get Skydiving?

First line of the paragraph:

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Voting by secret ballot at its annual meeting earlier this year, members of PIA denied AAD's application to join the trade group...

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[councilman24 36]

Haven't got my Skydiving yet but,

Membership in PIA is by vote of the voting (full and sustaining) members present. Membership votes are done in executive session of the voting members. Any member can request a paper ballot. What occurs in executive session is confidential. AAD is not a PIA member. Nothing else is appropriate to say under the bylaws of PIA.

Terry Urban
PIA full member
Chairman, PIA Rigging Committee

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[tombuch 0]

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Any member can request a paper ballot. What occurs in executive session is confidential. AAD is not a PIA member. Nothing else is appropriate to say under the bylaws of PIA.

So can you skip discussion about the Executive Session and offer some background about what objections members might have about Advanced Aerospace, or the general discussion that members have had in open session or outside of PIA?

The Skydiving article suggests the vote may have been a business protection action to inhibit the success of another AAD within the marketplace, and that makes PIA look pretty bad. Other alternative include that members believe the technology has problems, the business plan has problems, or the manufacturer isn't meeting a safety or design standard, and those concerns would suggest PIA was correct in their move.

I think the skydiving community is looking to PIA members for their expertise, and would be well served by an informed discussion about the issues surrounding Advanced Aerospace and the Vigil.

Thoughts?

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[councilman24 36]

There is no discussion that I can offer that wasn't in Executive session. Please take note, I didn't say anything about AAD having applied or not. Applications made and not approved are not announced outside executive session.

I can tell you that I hold all of the members of PIA in high regard. I refer you to the Code of Professional Responsibility. http://www.pia.com/piapubs/code.htm For those of you who don't know me I am a part time Master Rigger. The only manufacturer that I am a dealer for is Paraphernalia. I do not make my living from skydiving or rigging and sell no other equipment other than Softie pilot rigs. I have no financial interest in any manufacturer or dealer and no sponsorship by any gear manufacturer or dealer. I have been a member of PIA since 1989 and actively involved in PIA symposium and committee business since 1999. I know of no decision made by PIA based on protectionism or any other inappropriate reason. Of course we all have our own opinions and often debate issues in committees like 180 day repack, equipment service life, membership privileges and levels, by-law provisions, meeting sites, parachute certification standards and testing procedures and many other issues facing the industry.

I still haven't got my Skydiving magazine so don't know the tone of the article. But I have never known protectionism to come into any decision of PIA to date. I have attended every meeting except August 2006 for several years. I'll also point out that the large number (majority?) of members now have no direct involvement with sport parachute equipment. They are hardware manufacturers, webbing and fabric manufacturers, government agencies (including military), and military equipment manufacturers. These members attend many meetings because of the specifications committee work and any member present can vote on membership applications.

I also don't know of a PIA decision of any kind that has been based on any quality judgment of any member's products.

There are possible reasons for voting against a membership application other than those you offered. "The Skydiving article suggests the vote may have been a business protection action to inhibit the success of another AAD within the marketplace, and that makes PIA look pretty bad. Other alternative include that members believe the technology has problems, the business plan has problems, or the manufacturer isn't meeting a safety or design standard,....." Again I might refer you to the Code of Professional Responsibility.

Of course personal feelings may come enter into an individual member's vote, but I have seen no collusion or conspiracy. In fact this organization and it's current executive committee (as well as all I have observed) goes out of it's way to be fair, impartial, and follow, sometimes PAINFULLY, it's by-laws and Robert's Rules of Order. Are there politics? Sure, as with any organization of people. Members certainly express their opinion, lobby for their view, try to convince people of their beliefs but each vote is individual.

While I have a personal opinion of the Vigil AAD and the company AAD I don't know any information important to any individual skydiver that isn't public and that I haven't seen publicly discussed.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[ryoder 1,384]

http://www.dim.com/~ryoder/skydiving.jpg

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[siddacious 0]

I heard a rumor that both AAD and Aviacom we're being blocked from joining the PIA due to patent violation allegations raised by Airtec

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[siddacious 0]

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I heard a rumor that both AAD and Aviacom we're being blocked from joining the PIA due to patent violation allegations raised by Airtec

Apparently the part about Aviacom is untrue as they did not apply to the PIA. My mistake. This is a rumor after all, and the part about AAD may be un-true as well.

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[JerryBaumchen 1,048]

Hi Terry,

Just out of nothing but curiosity (and no names req'd), how many companies/individuals have applied for membership and been denied since 1 Jan 2000?

Jerry

[USPA 0]

Slightly offtopic, but what patents does Airtec (pr the other aad manufactorers) hold? The cutter is patent free since the early 80's if I remember correctly.

The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

[councilman24 36]

I don't know and wouldn't say anyway. I didn't attend ALL of the meetings. Again, applications denied are not announced outside plenary session. Hmmm, there is a slight addendum to that statement. Applicants names are sometimes emailed to members ahead of the meeting. But again this is to members.

Memberships applications can be rejected for procedural errors (i.e. not supplying dues with application), not obtaining or having sponsoring members (two required), or denied by the vote of the membership. (Proxy voting is not allowed by PIA, you have to be there to vote.) I have seen all of these occur.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[siddacious 0]

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Slightly offtopic, but what patents does Airtec (pr the other aad manufactorers) hold? The cutter is patent free since the early 80's if I remember correctly.

I didn't hear the specifics from the person that passed the rumor along, but I did find this:

http://www.google.com/patents?vid=USPAT7040580&id=sBR3AAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4&dq=automatic+activation+device#PPA1-IA1,M1

I'm assuming that is the patent in question, Held by Helmut Cloth of Airtec, and it appears to cover the whole AAD 'system'

I have absolutely no info as to the nature of the alleged infringements.

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[dorbie 0]

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http://www.dim.com/~ryoder/skydiving.jpg

Shameful, thanks for posting.

[dorbie 0]

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I heard a rumor that both AAD and Aviacom we're being blocked from joining the PIA due to patent violation allegations raised by Airtec

Then the appropriate venue is a court, where everyone gets their say and there is a fair hearing and the merits are objectively assessed in the context of applicable law, not behind the closed doors of an elitist club that presents itself as the industry's association.

PIA needs to take a cold hard look at itself over this bullshit.

P.S. if the company was some fly-by-night or there weren't thousands of Vigils out there in rigs being jumped I could understand it, but this just makes it clear that as an organization PIA is deeply flawed.

[darkwing 4]

Your judgement is premature--unless you have evidence other than what is in this thread. I'm not in PIA, so I know only what is here, and it is completely insufficient to cast any blame.

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[dorbie 0]

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Your judgement is premature--unless you have evidence other than what is in this thread. I'm not in PIA, so I know only what is here, and it is completely insufficient to cast any blame.

I know that there are Vigils out the wazoo being jumped, the manufacturer applied and was rejected after a closed door meeting. The lack of transparency alone is bad enough. Frankly, it stinks. The patent allegations merely add suspicion, it is not what I base my judgement on.

Good luck getting enough information to form your opinion.

[USPA 0]

I'm no patent expert, but could someone explain to me the use of this patent? Since it's filled in 2004, allmost everything has prior art? The Argus and Vigil were both already out their (albeit the Argus only in test units in experimental gear)

The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

[dorbie 0]

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I'm no patent expert, but could someone explain to me the use of this patent? Since it's filled in 2004, allmost everything has prior art? The Argus and Vigil were both already out their (albeit the Argus only in test units in experimental gear)

I'm no expert either, but... you need to look at the claims to determine what the patent attempts to cover.

This patent has 56 claims.

If you read the claims you will see that apart from a couple of very broad contextual descriptions (that could apply to their earlier AADs sold > 1 year before filing and not claimable), what is claimed is the waterproofing of the AAD and the replacable filter, and it's covered exhaustively and in detail.

I am not a lawyer, but from what I can see the patent linked above is all about the details of the waterproofing & the associated filter that can be submerged and field replaced in the cypres2.

I wouldn't assume it's the only patent they have.

[USPA 0]

Maybe their waterfilter is a very exotic one? Waterfilters like theirs have alot of prior art, even in specific AAD's (Argus)

The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

[PhreeZone 15]

Here is a patent from 1988 from Airtec that covers about the whole electronic sensor activated concept:
http://www.google.com/patents?vid=USPAT4858856&id=ER0MAAAAEBAJ&dq=4858856

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[jee 0]

i would like to know what the fuck is going on with this. my life is depending on this device. is there something wrong? i know PIA is it's own entity and doesn't realy provide for the general public or even the skydiving community but come on. why so secret?

[tdog 0]

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Membership in PIA is by vote of the voting (full and sustaining) members present. Membership votes are done in executive session of the voting members. Any member can request a paper ballot. What occurs in executive session is confidential. AAD is not a PIA member. Nothing else is appropriate to say under the bylaws of PIA.

Terry Urban
PIA full member
Chairman, PIA Rigging Committee

Terry,

Since you are a PIA representative, I am going to go ahead and speak my mind in the way we are allowed to do in a democracy.

I thought I knew about PIA, but decided to look for more info on the website.

I found this as the PIA mission statement:

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The Parachute Industry Association
is comprised of companies and individuals united by a common desire to improve business opportunities in this segment of aviation.

By this alone, I have lost a lot of respect for the Association. No where does this mission statement talk about improving safety in skydiving for the customers - or promoting the sport.

I am discouraged any Parachute Association would not allow a dues paying member to join. I am not a customer of "AAD's" products, and their product may or may not still have flaws, but they have a right to enter the marketplace and try to compete in the Cypres monopoly.

What concerns me the most is Executive Session...

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What occurs in executive session is confidential. AAD is not a PIA member. Nothing else is appropriate to say under the bylaws of PIA.

It appears this Association has a secret (good-old-boys club) that decides who can and cannot join the fraternity.

Perhaps there is a valid administrative reason why they could not join that they just have to fix, but what I read into this is a competitor of one of the biggest sponsors of the PIA wanted to join the club and could not.

It is clear that the PIA is a business alliance to benefit the current members, not a open trade organization free for all to join.

You have your right to form an association with any bylaws or goals. I have a right to choose which ones to join or support.

As a Rigger in training, and an avid skydiver and instructor, I have decided that the PIA has systems, bylaws, procedures and missions that I don't appreciate - and therefore as a consumer I won't support your association. I believe that, a trade organization for equipment manufactures with a focus on training and education to riggers and other consumers, should allow all companies to join so as long as they pay their dues and follow a code of ethics. If they should not follow the code of ethics, the company should be able to go thru an open arbitration or appeal process.

[PhreeZone 15]

PIA is there to represent the manufactors, the fabric makers and the hardware industry. Most of their customers are the militaries. They are not to promote the sport, that is what the USPA is for in the US.

PIA is no different from a lot of other trade organizations in that the exsting members can vote on who can join. This has the advantange of allowing them to have basic acceptence in the eyes of their peers before joining. Would you agree that a company like "SkyScam" or "Fly by Night Parachutes" should be able to join with no critera or acceptence at all and then get the full benifits of being part of the trade organization? That sounds a lot like the USPA Group Member program and there are constant complaints that the program is flawed since anyone can write a check and now they are entitled to all the benifits with out having to have met a single criteria.

PD, Icarus, Precision, etc are all members and have voted to lt each other in, its known that Rigging Innovations still has not approved the Vigil as of March so there may be other issues that can not be spoken about outside the executive session that has nothing to do with the CYPRES.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[tdog 0]

Phree,

We both have our rights to our own opinions.

However, my opinion still is unchanged by your post.

My company is a member of 5 trade associations, all designed to promote the industry. While some organizations require a test and continuing education credits, most are free to join by paying your dues, investing resources, and participating actively.

They all have proven - you get out of it what you put into it.

Listing XYZ association on a company resume, or being listed as a member on the association's website brings little value.

Instead, participating on committees, writing submissions for newsletters, and paying for trade show booths, all bring value.

Fly by Night Parachutes, in your example, would not gain any benefit unless they participated heavily.

If Fly by Night Parachutes did something unethical, bylaws could allow a process to "try the case" in a fair unbiased way (or as unbiased as you could try to achieve). A code of ethics and association rules would prohibit those who don't play the game in the way the association desires.

Having a secret ballot process to join a trade organization (or association) moves that association more towards a cartel, away from a unbiased association with the goal to improve the industry (and thus improve sales and all the positive benefits of joint marketing and research resources).

You make reference to the USPA group membership program. These are different beasts - as the USPA provides tangible benefits in the terms of an insurance policy and informally regulates. Anyone could write a check and get the benifit without promoting the sport, investing in trade show booths, sharing knowledge, etc.

The point. AAD (Vigil) has entered the marketplace trying to break the Cypres monopoly. The free-market economy will determine who has the best product and business plan. I don't think they have done anything unethical at this point - Cypres had 12 years of exclusivity with relatively no new innovations.

To me, it seems from the outside, PIA is an Association to promote the self interests of the current members.

I might be completely wrong and will continue to research this - however, I don't appreciate the secret ballot vote in nature of any association.

Perhaps that is why I was not in a Frat in school.