Too high on final - what are you going to do?

[NWFlyer 2]

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So....help out the n00b....what is this flat turn you speak of?

SIM page 153 has a good explanation. (Section 6-11).

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[MakeItHappen 15]

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I have a question about this,

"Well, you could fly in a deep brake or double front risers configuration until your trajectory came up short of the obstacle."

Wouldn't double-fronts increase your forward speed, not decrease it to land short of the obstacle? And increasing speed toward said obstacle would be undesirable, no?

I'm not quite sure how the trade-off works between the increased speed, and the loss of altitude when using double fronts. I'd imagine it depends on the canopy.

You have to look at the trajectory.
Double fronts makes a steeper approach, compared to full flight.
And as you note, it also increases airspeed.

Deep brakes makes a steeper approach, compared to full flight.
It reduces airspeed.

If you are high on final, you want to make your approach steeper.
(Let's rule out the s-turns. That is not a good technique.)
You have options.
You can go fast or you can go slow.

Here's the Goldilock's answer:

1. Full Flight - toggles all the way up will have 'almost' the flattest glide slope at a moderate speed.

2. Double Front Risers - will have a steeper glide slope than (1) and have a faster airspeed.

3. Deep Brakes - will have a steeper glide slope than (1) and (2) and have a slower airspeed.

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Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[Booster_MPS 0]

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I have a question about this,

"Well, you could fly in a deep brake or double front risers configuration until your trajectory came up short of the obstacle."

Wouldn't double-fronts increase your forward speed, not decrease it to land short of the obstacle? And increasing speed toward said obstacle would be undesirable, no?

I'm not quite sure how the trade-off works between the increased speed, and the loss of altitude when using double fronts. I'd imagine it depends on the canopy.

Great opportunity for you to use your double fronts and figure this out for yourself.

Remember your parachute is a wing and produces very similar responses to inputs as the control surfaces on a plane. Double fronts deflect the front of the canopy down decreasing the angle of attack. An airfoil produces the majority of its lift towards the front and this deflection reduces the magnitude of lift, thus you will lose altitude. Think of this as rotating your lift vector forward and decreasing the magnitude of it. Spend a moment with an advanced canopy pilot to discuss the forces/vectors acting on your canopy system and how they are oriented with different inputs.

[Inspired 0]

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Sashays are more like flying your canopy sideways, whereas s-turns are flying your canopy in different directions for a certain amount of time.

[n00b question] How, exactly, do you fly a canopy sideways without flying crosswind? [/n00b question]

The same way you fly sideways in ff.

You maintain the same heading and move to the right or left.

In ff, you use your upper body and legs turning in opposite directions to cause a side slide. Using your analogy, wouldn't the brakes or rear risers be the equivalent of your legs, and the front risers the equivalent of your upper body? How can you side slide in ff using just your legs, which would be the equivalent of using just the brakes on a canopy?

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The way to do it under canopy (a rough explanation) is to pull some right toggle, then some left toggle such that the left toggle trails the right toggle and then neutralize with both toggles at the same deflection position at a deep brake or smoothly returned to full flight mode.
All toggle movements are slow and smooth, not jabbing, stabbing crap.
For instance, you pull 4 inches on the right and then pull 3 inches on the left and then as you continue pulling right you also pull left, but don't catch up to equal pulls on each side until you want to stop the offset or sideways movement.

This sounds very much like Billvon's description of a flat turn:

From Billvon's Downsizing Checklist:

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1. Flat turn 90 degrees at 50 feet

To pull off this manuever, start by toggle turning the parachute gently. IMMEDIATELY follow that with some opposite toggle. The idea is that you want to flare just a little to counteract the canopy's desire to dive. Continue adding opposite toggle until you've stopped the turn. At this point let both toggles all the way up.

This is all a part of canopy control that has had me a little confused. Up till now, I thought it was simply people's differing use of terminology. But now, I'm wondering if I'm missing something important. I still don't understand how a canopy flying directly into the wind, or possibly no wind, would maintain its heading, yet fly sideways. Maybe my instructor will be able to demonstrate for me.

Thanks for trying to clear this up for me. Sometimes it takes awhile to sink into my thick skull.

[erdnarob 1]

Hi DanG. I always thought Velocity was a cross braced canopy from PD .
Thanks for the remark. You are right. But the difference between speed and velocity has a meaning specially in a phycics course. However in both cases mentioned here, it's quite obvious that both the wind and the parachute have a specific direction. The context is important. Isolating a word from its context and the spirit of the message is gone . Glad anyway to see skydivers dealing with maths .

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[erdnarob 1]

Just curious. How do you fly a canopy sideways ? The only way I can see is to pull on the risers of the same side just like in freefall you bank your body on the side you want to slip sideway. When flying an airplane you do a side slip by banking the airplane more than what you need for a normal turn. This method is used to lose altitude faster or when used with opposite rudder to keep the airplane parallel to the runway when having a cross wind for landing. But with a parachute ??????

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[MakeItHappen 15]

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In ff, you use your upper body and legs turning in opposite directions to cause a side slide.

That's an interesting description on how to side slide. Usually, I describe it as tipping one side of your body down in the direction you want to go.

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Using your analogy, wouldn't the brakes or rear risers be the equivalent of your legs, and the front risers the equivalent of your upper body? How can you side slide in ff using just your legs, which would be the equivalent of using just the brakes on a canopy?

The easiest side slide under canopy can be done with toggles only.
What you want to do is tip the canopy to the left or right and not change heading.
As you know, if you pull right, your heading will turn right.
So to counter the heading change you need to pull left, but not as far because you want the canopy to tip to the right.
Remember that both toggles are moving. This is not a pull and hold type maneuver.

To see this in action watch
http://omniskore.com/comp/2007/usnats/media/fscwr.wmv

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This sounds very much like Billvon's description of a flat turn:

From Billvon's Downsizing Checklist:

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1. Flat turn 90 degrees at 50 feet

To pull off this manuever, start by toggle turning the parachute gently. IMMEDIATELY follow that with some opposite toggle. The idea is that you want to flare just a little to counteract the canopy's desire to dive. Continue adding opposite toggle until you've stopped the turn. At this point let both toggles all the way up.

I would not describe a flat turn like that.

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Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[Inspired 0]

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In ff, you use your upper body and legs turning in opposite directions to cause a side slide.

That's an interesting description on how to side slide.

I heard that description in a tunnel instructional video. The reason I chose to use it is that it emphasizes the fact that there is more than one control surface involved; not just legs or upper body. Erdnarob's description of using front and back risers on the same side makes sense to me, but then I would wonder what effect it would have on altitude loss and wind speed.

I'm personally far from using some of these techniques, but when I get there, I'd rather know how and why they work rather than just simply being told to do them because that's what you're supposed to do.

Edited to add: Am I right in assuming that what you are describing is to change your roll angle while trying to keep your yaw to a minimum? If so, I think I'm starting to get it.

[MakeItHappen 15]

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Edited to add: Am I right in assuming that what you are describing is to change your roll angle while trying to keep your yaw to a minimum? If so, I think I'm starting to get it.

yes.

I forgot to say that video was a CF WR done by Chris Gay & Mark Gregory. Video was Keith Thivierge, who is the best CF photographer I have ever seen.

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Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[erdnarob 1]

Actually I never heard about that method of using both risers on the same side to fly a canopy sideways and never used it myself either. It seems to me it was just the only way (as far as I could understand aerodynamics) to achieve the desired effect ie. Flying sideways. I have to try it but I have doubt about the efficiency of such a method and I think doing it should be a pain in the a....

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[chuckbrown 0]

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...That is, the first problem they'll encounter is going being too high on final approach. For this, they should have a big forgiving canopy and make S-turns.....

Uhhhhh....Fred please re-think that.

It used to be that S turns were exactly the response to being too high on final. Preferably the S turns should be braked, flat turns. The problem with S turns these days, especially at turbine drop zones, is that the jumpers behind you don't necessarily know how to fly their canopy and can't adjust to someone making S turns on final. Can't be touching your brakes if you want to have a high performance landing.

[tetra316 0]

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...That is, the first problem they'll encounter is going being too high on final approach. For this, they should have a big forgiving canopy and make S-turns.....

Uhhhhh....Fred please re-think that.

It used to be that S turns were exactly the response to being too high on final. Preferably the S turns should be braked, flat turns. The problem with S turns these days, especially at turbine drop zones, is that the jumpers behind you don't necessarily know how to fly their canopy and can't adjust to someone making S turns on final. Can't be touching your brakes if you want to have a high performance landing.

Quite true. During AFF I was taught to do small s turns if I was too high on final. But that was at a small 182 dz with only 4 jumpers in the air at any one time. Which meant that the AFF students were always the last one down and had the sky to themselves by the time they entered the pattern. I would hope people are not teaching this now at turbine dzs and probably not 182 dzs anymore either since traveling to other dzs to jump is so common.

[kallend 1,635]

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...That is, the first problem they'll encounter is going being too high on final approach. For this, they should have a big forgiving canopy and make S-turns.....

Uhhhhh....Fred please re-think that.

It used to be that S turns were exactly the response to being too high on final. Preferably the S turns should be braked, flat turns. The problem with S turns these days, especially at turbine drop zones, is that the jumpers behind you don't necessarily know how to fly their canopy and can't adjust to someone making S turns on final. Can't be touching your brakes if you want to have a high performance landing have any idea what you are going to do next, so you create a moving unpredictable hazard for everyone behind you.

S turns on final are a sure way of getting axed from a bigway, AS THEY SHOULD BE.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[phoenixlpr 0]

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S turns on final are a sure way of getting axed from a bigway, AS THEY SHOULD BE.

I don't think that he/she should have any business in bigway with landing accuracy problem of that scale....

[kallend 1,635]

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S turns on final are a sure way of getting axed from a bigway, AS THEY SHOULD BE.

I don't think that he/she should have any business in bigway with landing accuracy problem of that scale....

True, but bad habits are hard to break. Best not to develop them in the first place.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kelpdiver 2]

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It used to be that S turns were exactly the response to being too high on final. Preferably the S turns should be braked, flat turns. The problem with S turns these days, especially at turbine drop zones, is that the jumpers behind you don't necessarily know how to fly their canopy and can't adjust to someone making S turns on final. Can't be touching your brakes if you want to have a high performance landing.

As Kallend writes, it's a problem for everyone behind, not just performance landers.

Just consider what happens on a busy freeway when one person jams on the brakes. It sets off a cascade of reactions behind. Of course, we can't stop when under canopy, And we don't have a gas pedal. We only have altitude, and unpredictable flying ahead of you makes it difficult to manage that resource. And your reactions impact the next guy behind you, and so forth.

Makes a lot more sense for the high lander to walk more. Next time they'll make their turn to final lower as it should be.

[phoenixlpr 0]

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Just consider what happens on a busy freeway when one person jams on the brakes. It sets off a cascade of reactions behind.

Oh, the good old, automotive example again.
Sorry, it has nothing to do with aviation. It was a nice try anyway.

[Mr.B 0]

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Actually I never heard about that method of using both risers on the same side to fly a canopy sideways and never used it myself either. It seems to me it was just the only way (as far as I could understand aerodynamics) to achieve the desired effect ie. Flying sideways. I have to try it but I have doubt about the efficiency of such a method and I think doing it should be a pain in the a....

I don't think you'll get any sideway movement. Pulling both risers on the same side is basically the same as doing a harness turns and these surely don't make you move sideways.

cheers,
Bart

[strop45 0]

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True, but bad habits are hard to break. Best not to develop them in the first place.

The problem is that when you are learning you will misjudge your approach sometimes. Sometimes you will be too low/the wind will be stronger than you thought and you will be short, but sometimes you will be higher/wind will be be less than you thought and you will be too long.

OK, if there is no problem with this, then so be it, but sometimes you will be flying towards a significant hazard, e.g. a road complete with a fence and high voltage power line along it.

Simply saying don't do this isn't enough.

Maybe flat s-turns when you are too long is better than flying into high voltage power wires. If you are too long, then by definition the following jumpers are lower and will land behind you?

When flying towards a hazard,IMO there is usually a better alternative to S-turns e.g. a course change, however this may mean you land in a different direction to the following jumpers.

This problem can be caused by the FMD rule, as he/she is usually on a higher wind loading than less experienced jumpers and sometimes lands into the 'box canyon'.

Stay safe.

The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein

[erdnarob 1]

<<<>>>>

At least somebody realistic. If you are too high and have plenty of clean landing space ahead, keep on straight forward.
If you are going toward dangerous obstacles, S flat turns is the way and you hope that your are alone in this situation. Being too high on final should be exceptional and happens generally to beginers who are not on BIG WAY. If there is a good wind it's completely different. You can apply 1/2 or 3/4 of brakes and stay like that or do the same and place yourself alternatively at 45 degrees with respect to the wind. 5 seconds to the right then 5 seconds to the left and so on. That will make you staying almost stationary or even backing up a bit while getting lower. My personal "trick" is to avoid heavy traffic and space permitting going to land further alone. On a big DZ like DeLand a recovery truck is there within a couple of minutes even before you have the chance to undo the slider, set up your brakes and pick up your parachute.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[timmyfitz 0]

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Just consider what happens on a busy freeway when one person jams on the brakes. It sets off a cascade of reactions behind.

Oh, the good old, automotive example again.
Sorry, it has nothing to do with aviation. It was a nice try anyway.

I don't think he was trying to say driving a car is like skydiving/aviation. More like what happens when one person brakes (S turns) and what happens to others behind that person.

The analogy works. It was a nice try and it worked.

[chuckbrown 0]

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The analogy works. It was a nice try and it worked.

You're right the analogy does work and we see it work every time we get in a car. When the car in front of you has a red light and applies the brakes to slow down, you apply the brakes too to you don't rear end it.

S turns don't have to hog up lots of sky, and they're a valuable tool to use in the right situation. This dogma of thou shalt not do S turns on final is silly. They have their place and are a vital skill. Learning how to S turn might save your ass one day when you find yourself landing off into a tight area.

[kelpdiver 2]

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S turns don't have to hog up lots of sky, and they're a valuable tool to use in the right situation. This dogma of thou shalt not do S turns on final is silly. They have their place and are a vital skill. Learning how to S turn might save your ass one day when you find yourself landing off into a tight area.

No doubt there are times where little alternatives exist. But more often that not, there are better choices. Most LZs are huge - much of the time just going long works. Or checking one side (preferably same as standard pattern for the location), turning 90 degrees and flying to the edge of the LZ, then another 90 back onto final. That will bleed off the altitude in a much more predictable way then S'ing back and forth.

How can anyone predict S turns by someone that screwed up the approach that badly in the first place? Worse, that person is above you and could be obscured by your canopy. Or maybe that person is suddenly going to do a 180/270/360/450 and you're in the path?

I remember opening short and high and flying over the main part of the LZ to get to the holding area. Afterwards another jumper talked to me about not flying in that area because of the uncertainty it presented, which made sense to me.

I wish this thread was more about identifying the problem on the earlier parts of the pattern. There's a lot of variation you can take before leveling out on final to deal with being high (or low, to a smaller degree).

[dgw 8]

My thoughts.

If you are too high on final, you are landing far away, compared to other competent parachutists, from the 'target'.

If you are far away from the 'target', S turns are unlikely to compromise the pattern for parachutists heading to the 'target'.

If you S turn to try and reach the target, because you are too high, you inconvenience parachutists behind you.

[labrys 0]

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If you S turn to try and reach the target, because you are too high, you inconvenience parachutists behind you.

If you S turn to try and reach the target, because you are too high, you endanger parachutists behind you.

Seriously. It sucks to have someone darting around in front of you when you're on final. It sucks a lot. It isn't the "inconvenience" it's the danger.

Owned by Remi #?