ladyskydiver 0 #126 January 30, 2007 QuoteI re-read your posts and saw a lot of information about how you've cut costs and avoided using credit cards, but I didn't see where you explicitly denied having outside income or debt, and I definitely didn't see any remarks about how long you'd be willing to maintain your current lifestyle. You've claimed that I am digging for something that's not there because I have a chip on my shoulder. If you don't have any outside income or debt and would be willing to continue your lifestyle indefinitely, say so, and you'll shut me up for good. Personally, I suspect you were a little too quick to declare, "I make less than $12,000 per year....So, someone making $20,000-30,000 - hot damn! They can afford insurance," never stopping to consider that your situation is not the same as most people attempting to live indefinitely off an income only marginally above the poverty level. But if I'm wrong, say so. Using your words: No outside debt - I have some (not much - just the balance of my deductible from last year's surgery - and depending on my tax returns this year, there's a good chance that I will have $0 in debt after I receive them). I make my payments - more than the minimum if I can afford it (as some months I can), exact amount if I can't. Never, ever will I not pay my debts. Those are my debts that I made the decision/choice to incur so therefore it is my responsibility to pay them off. Length of time willing to maintain current lifestyle - indefinitely. The debt that I'll be in from vet school (when I finally get into it) will not be paid off quickly and will take between 25-50% of my salary to do so. (And since I've heard that once in vet school, I won't have time to work, I'll have to deal with taking out student loans and hoping for grants/scholarships.) Becoming a vet is not something you do for the money...it's something you do because you love it. Yearly salary is not much...a lot less than the student loans (unless I can figure out a way to work while in school). And, I've seen the people that come to the animal ER or call and can't afford to bring in their pets for health care, I've already made the decision that when I start my practice, I will figure out a way to help those individuals somehow - be it lower costs or payment plans, etc. which will obviously cut into my bottom line, but again, it's a choice that I'm making. Do I expect others to make the same choices/decisions I've made? No...there are some that could not handle it. Do I expect people to say "yes...it's a choice that I've made" and accept responsibility for their choices, yes. Do I believe people should have health care, yes. Do I believe that people make choices that they are not going to pay $X dollars for insurance, yes. Do I feel that my insurance premiums or the costs of my health care should go up because those that don't pay their bills in some way/shape/form get their bills passed on to me? No.Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ladyskydiver 0 #127 January 30, 2007 QuoteI think the issue with Douva is NOT that there exists a safety net (read: contingiency plan) for people in poor economic conditions. The issue is the (originally stated) idea that people should plan on the safety net as as their primary means of health care coverage, instead of as a backup option. That is NOT what it was designed for. The whole idea that it's there, therefore don't even try to find a way to get your own coverage is very distasteful to almost everyone. ExactlyLife is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
white_falcon 0 #128 January 30, 2007 QuoteOk, let's say one of the people in your hypothetical family is in their mid-40's and had a melanoma removed in the past or has been diagnosed rheumatoid arthritis or diabetes. Walt Walt, As I thought, all of these items are able to be dealt with (with maybe the melanoma but, even that is psossible). What will happen is that the company (ies) may require a higher deductible, or a rider that excludes SOME coverage for the current ailment. The exclusion may be eithere temporary or permanent, and mey just be that a RX card is not provided (ie diabetes). However, the individiual would still have access to AFFORDABLE health insurance in all other aspects. Does this adequately address your question? Scott Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #129 January 30, 2007 QuoteQuoteBottom line - if someone gets injured beyond their ability to pay, the rest of society is going to pick up the tab one way or another. I think the issue with Douva is NOT that there exists a safety net (read: contingiency plan) for people in poor economic conditions. The issue is the (originally stated) idea that people should plan on the safety net as as their primary means of health care coverage, instead of as a backup option. That is NOT what it was designed for. The whole idea that it's there, therefore don't even try to find a way to get your own coverage is very distasteful to almost everyone. I agree with that perspective, just not as vehemently as when I first entered this conversation. I've come around to thinking it's more of an ethical issue than financial. If they find insurance that they can afford, their contribution is going to be minimal and the brunt of any catastrophic costs will be born by everyone else regardless. It's just a matter of who's going to initially assume the debt, the hospital or the insurance company. Either way it will eventually be spread out and covered by others. I still think those people should pay their part just like the rest of us, but when they can't, you and I are going to be picking up their tab whether they have insurance or not. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waltappel 1 #130 January 30, 2007 QuoteHowever, the individiual would still have access to AFFORDABLE health insurance in all other aspects. Does this adequately address your question? Scott Depends on your criteria for "affordable". Got any ballpark numbers? Walt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #131 January 30, 2007 I have an issue with the fact that of all the people who have shared similar opinions to mine on this thread, I'm the one who has been attacked, and about whom it was implied that I am a rich yuppie who drives to my favorite turbine DZ in my Mercedes and looks down my nose on the founders of the sport. THAT is what I have a problem with - you are judging and stereotyping me exactly as much as you feel I am judging and stereotyping others. You (and others) took my viewpoint on one issue (insurance) and extended it out, labeling me with an attitude of entitlement, snobbery, elitism, lack of respect for people who don't share my socioeconomic status, and disregard for the pioneers of this sport. That is the leap of logic and it's an unfair representation of me as an individual based on a single statement. Like livendive, I've actually come around a bit on this discussion, and like others, I'm willing to amend my statement from "if you can't afford insurance, you can't afford to skydive" to "if you choose to jump without insurance, you choose to fully accept the financial consequences of that." Disagree with my viewpoints - I'm fine with that. We can agree to disagree, or maybe you'll even persuade me. But I won't have my character maligned because you disagree with me."There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
icevideot 0 #132 January 30, 2007 QuoteA lot of slack was allowed to happen in this thread but by no means does this mean that this should be allowed to continue to other threads. I personally see the value in having this agruement be as rational as possible and keeping it out of Speakers Corner since in a lot of ways it effects every jumper out there. But if people want to interject their political views (that hasn't happened yet, I'm trying to prevent it) then its going to be moved. In the mean time please feel free to keep a civil discussion about this going. Thanks for allowing this to go on here. I don't read anything in the speakers corner and I am amazed that individual insurance can be so affordable. Of course with the deductibles I have found I wouldn't be able to benefit from it most years but that is a blessing and not a slur against the policies. I still don't understand why a Tylenol tablet costs $8 in a hospital but that is another question. I wish Koji all the best."... this ain't a Nerf world." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Elisha 1 #133 January 30, 2007 For some reason, while I was reading this I got confused...and thought waltappel and popsjumper were the same person - and I've never met them! I guess they just both come off online as dirty old men. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ladydyver 0 #134 January 30, 2007 QuoteQuote Do not even begin to say that someone can not afford health insurance. Try supporting yourself and a child on $20k/year and then tell us that everyone can afford health insurance. Try getting health insurance that's not a job benefit (ie not through a group plan) when you have a pre-existing condition and then tell us that everyone can afford health insurance on $20k/year. Try making $20k/year cover housing, food, utilities and transportation expenses in an area with a high cost of living (ie California) and then tell us that everyone can afford health insurance on $20k/year. Not everyone can afford health insurance. This is a huge issue that varies from state to state depending on what the state is willing to do to help those who are working full time and still receive no medical benefits. Here we have community clinics that have a tapered amount that you pay depending on what your income is....even with this it is still difficult for people to find providers. The clinic also gives deals on medications that are prescribed. Sometimes pharmaceutical companies help too with some assistance programs. Unfortunatley, not everybody is aware of the resources available to them and sometimes healthcare provider have difficulty keeping up with programs as they are phased in and out.DPH # 2 "I am not sure what you are suppose to do with that, but I don't think it is suppose to flop around like that." ~Skootz~ I have a strong regard for the rules.......doc! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SBS 0 #135 January 30, 2007 QuoteI've come around to thinking it's more of an ethical issue than financial. Absolutely agreed. Nobody, or very few, would be able to pay for all of their medical bills in extreme cases. It's a matter of helping yourself, and then looking outward. Like someone else said, using the system that was created as a safety net as it was intended, not depending on it as a primary method of receiving care. -s_____________ I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydivermom 0 #136 January 30, 2007 For some reason, while I was reading this I got confused...and thought waltappel and popsjumper were the same person - and I've never met them! I guess they just both come off online as dirty old men. Quote Well, I HAVE met both of them, and your assumption couldn't be more accurateMrs. WaltAppel All things work together for good to them that love God...Romans 8:28 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freeflir29 0 #137 January 30, 2007 Quote"if you can't afford insurance, you can't afford to skydive" I STILL feel that way. Why? Who ultimately ends up paying? I do as a tax payer. I still happen to believe that we need to leave socialism to the CIS and European states. Americans should be responsible for themselves. Period. If they were America would be MUCH better off. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites edenney 0 #138 January 30, 2007 QuoteQuote"if you can't afford insurance, you can't afford to skydive" I STILL feel that way. Why? Who ultimately ends up paying? I do as a tax payer. I still happen to believe that we need to leave socialism to the CIS and European states. Americans should be responsible for themselves. Period. If they were America would be MUCH better off. As someone who's unfortunately intimately familiar with this topic I feel unequivocally that every skydiver should not only have insurance, but should have good insurance, and I agree that if you can't afford insurance you really shouldn't be in the sport. Unless you're independently wealthy or have a great deal of liquid savings (and I don't mean beer in the fridge), you should also consider some form of supplemental income insurance such as AFLAC etc. The above goes double for instructors, since they actually make their living from skydiving. The fact of the matter is the longer you stay in the sport and the more jumps you do, the greater your odds of having an incident, and the vast majority of skydivers are going to suffer some sort of injury sooner or later. If and more likely when you do, you're in for a rude awakening when those medical bills start rolling in and the income stops. In just the first 120 days that I was in the hospital I racked up over 2 million worth of medical bills. I've since racked up several hundred thousand more and I still have several major surgeries left to go. If I didn't have insurance (and an employer that kept me on the payroll & insurance during that time) not only would I have been dealing with all the horrifying things I went through in the hospital in the months immediately following my accident, but I would have lost my home and everything else. It's bad enough when you have to deal with your own recovery, believe me, you don't need the added stress of losing everything else you own, thoughts of bankruptcy, and worrying about where you're going to live, especially if you need long term care. For those of you who have insurance through your work as many people do including myself, remember that you may or may not be able to keep your job if you're seriously injured (or even moderately injured depending on the type of work). Although you can continue your benefits for a period of time after losing your job by paying for it out of your own pocket (Cobra etc.), you'll have to be able to make those insurance payments at the same time that you don't have any money coming in which can be pretty difficult. The bottom line is I really don't think people put enough thought into the consequences of what happens when you're injured in this sport. Most people have the "it won't happen to me mentality" and just put it out of their minds. Not only should everyone have insurance, you really should play out the scenarios of what would happen if you were injured to various degrees and be prepared for those eventualities. Sticking your head in the sand and not considering the ramifications will surely come back to haunt you if you stay in the sport long enough. It should just be considered a cost of doing business figuratively speaking, and literally speaking for instructors. Quite simply as others have stated, if you can't afford to have insurance you can't afford to be skydiving. Eric Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SBS 0 #139 January 30, 2007 QuoteIn just the first 120 days that I was in the hospital I racked up over 2 million worth of medical bills. That's just cause you refused to eat their slop and insisted on catered meals of lobster and filet mignon. _____________ I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybytch 259 #140 January 30, 2007 QuoteThat's just cause you refused to eat their slop and insisted on catered meals of lobster and filet mignon. You forgot to mention the on-call strippers and "happy ending" massage "techs". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MakeItHappen 15 #141 January 30, 2007 QuoteQuote"if you can't afford insurance, you can't afford to skydive" I STILL feel that way. Why? Who ultimately ends up paying? I do as a tax payer. I still happen to believe that we need to leave socialism to the CIS and European states. Americans should be responsible for themselves. Period. If they were America would be MUCH better off. This is really a weird conversation between the haves and have-nots. I think both sides do not fully understand the position of the other side. The 'haves' say "if you cannot afford insurance, you should not jump or cannot afford to jump." What I think this group is missing is that the people that do jump without insurance are the folks that do not need to 'afford' to jump. IOW, they do not pay for their jumps. The 'haves' look at their $200-400/weekend jump bill and say if you can afford that you can afford insurance. But the truth is that the folks that 'jump for income' do not have that $200-400/weekend bill. They have an income of $200-$400 per weekend. That measly income goes to pay for food, rent etc. Also the "haves" say that 'my tax dollars go to pay for those that cannot pay for their medical bills.' Well, as Dave pointed out, it's either your tax dollars or your premiums that go to pay for the other person's medical bills. Is there that much of a difference to you? If so, it should be along the lines that Dave also suggested that the person should still be billed for equivalent premiums. The 'have-nots' are not necessarily irresponsible. They may have the cash available from investments. Those that don't have the investments and no-insurance, know that they can and will pay as much as the can for medical bills, most anyway. But the remainder is subsidized. In their case, the subsidy comes from tax dollars. That really is not very different than the subsidy from others' premium payments. So I really do not understand why the 'haves' are so bent out of shape at the 'have-nots'. As I said in my first post to this thread, we'd all be better off if everyone had an equal footing in obtaining medical insurance, that was not attached to who you worked for or your employment status (indy vs ee). .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Deuce 1 #142 January 30, 2007 To summarize? Insurance is good. Insurance is expensive. Expensive is relative to the income of the jumper. The income of full time jumpers puts them usually below the poverty line, and unable to buy insurance and own a black and white television at the same time. People without insurance still get red-helicopter rides when they crash, and are still treated in emergency rooms, regardless of their ability to pay. People living below the poverty line are unable to pay, and the counties pick this cost up. In California the Counties run the ER's. My sidebar: The Counties DO NOT want to treat anybody in the ER. Heck when I was a deputy, there were tons of women who would come in with menstrual cramps! Guys coming in with infected ingrown toenails (and gunshot wounds, but GSW's are cool, like skydiving crashes and BELONG in the ER) The counties in CA all have some sort of low-income subsidized health plan, as I've posted the one in Contra Costa (where Byron is). These plans tend to discriminate against healthy single young men, but healthy single young men usually just need catastrophic anyhow. For young healthy single men with infected ingrown toenails, make an appointment at the county clinic where you are charged on your ability to pay. Anyhow, Emergency rooms are like public schools. I don't choose to use them (much), but they are good for the overall benefit of society. They should allow orthopedic surgeons to do indigent work for a tax write off. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites livendive 8 #143 January 30, 2007 QuoteThe Counties DO NOT want to treat anybody in the ER. Heck when I was a deputy, there were tons of women who would come in with menstrual cramps! I used to date an ER nurse who liked few things more than bitching about some of the patients who would come in to the ER. I think the worst was one night when she was working triage and a gal came in wanting a pregnancy test. She pointed out that such a test could easily be obtained a block and a half down the street at Rite-Aid for about $15, instead of the $300+ to use the ER. The gal said, "Yeah, but my medical coupons from the state cover hospital visits but not over-the-counter supplies at the drug store." Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ladydyver 0 #144 January 31, 2007 QuoteQuoteThe Counties DO NOT want to treat anybody in the ER. Heck when I was a deputy, there were tons of women who would come in with menstrual cramps! I used to date an ER nurse who liked few things more than bitching about some of the patients who would come in to the ER. I think the worst was one night when she was working triage and a gal came in wanting a pregnancy test. She pointed out that such a test could easily be obtained a block and a half down the street at Rite-Aid for about $15, instead of the $300+ to use the ER. The gal said, "Yeah, but my medical coupons from the state cover hospital visits but not over-the-counter supplies at the drug store." Blues, Dave Dave, As you know I am an ER nurse and am marrying an ER doc...we see the correct uses and abuses of the ER due to poor access, no access, or even the correct use of the ER. It is a vicious circle - that I hate to say will probably never change until the health care system crashes. People wonder why tylenol costs 4 $ in the ER - there are a lot of different factors. I know that our hospital tries to set up monthly payment plans and will even write off some of the cost of the visit. It does get frustrating however, when the above circumstance that you mention does occur - however, not everyone who comes in abuses the system; There are some patients that we see that have 50-100 visits a year...they come in with the same complaint every time....they can't get in to see their primary care physician....they don't like their pmd - they aren't taking care of them. There are some who have chronic illness who need to be seen. Its a coin toss on what your going to get.DPH # 2 "I am not sure what you are suppose to do with that, but I don't think it is suppose to flop around like that." ~Skootz~ I have a strong regard for the rules.......doc! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites edenney 0 #145 January 31, 2007 QuoteQuoteIn just the first 120 days that I was in the hospital I racked up over 2 million worth of medical bills. That's just cause you refused to eat their slop and insisted on catered meals of lobster and filet mignon. The only eating or drinking I did was through feeding tubes, and that definitely wasn't puree'd filet mignon coming out of those bags Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydivermom 0 #146 January 31, 2007 ***The only eating or drinking I did was through feeding tubes, and that definitely wasn't puree'd filet mignon coming out of those bags Quote Holy Crap! I'm just glad you are okay and I wish you the best of luck on the remainder of your treatment.Mrs. WaltAppel All things work together for good to them that love God...Romans 8:28 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freeflir29 0 #147 January 31, 2007 QuoteThis is really a weird conversation between the haves and have-nots. No it isn't. Granted........I currently make what I think a majority of the population would say is "a lot" of money. However......in Dec 2000 I was fresh out of the military. Had no job and thus no company insurance. I went and bought a major medical policy for $275 IIRC to cover me for 3 or 6 months. Don't remember which. So at least if I was in a car accident or something I would have SOME coverage. I also made the CHOICE not to jump. WHy........the insurance I had sucked. My financial position wasn't really good. Although I had planned and saved for getting out of the military it's depressing to watch your bank account go only one direction. If I had gotten seriously hurt back then my life would have been a WRECK. No money, huge bills, little prospects for improvement. I made SACRIFICES in order to make sure I took care of myself. I didn't say "Fuck it........someone else will pay for it and take care of my mistakes." I didn't jump for about 6 months. Granted you know EXACTLY what I bought when I got my first pay check. Yep.........A RIG! People who sit around and make arguments about why someone else should pay their bills are irresponsible. PERIOD. If they want to shit in their own beds I say let them lie in it. Quote The 'have-nots' are not necessarily irresponsible. QuoteBut the remainder is subsidized. Subsidized..........yes.........SOMEONE ELSE is paying for their piss poor planning. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sartre 0 #148 January 31, 2007 How is this thread not in Speaker's Corner? Some of you won't be happy until you get it moved there. Nice work. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freeflir29 0 #149 January 31, 2007 Sorry........this is a pet peeve with me. I get a little agitated. I edited to make it slightly less rude. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bigbearfng 16 #150 February 2, 2007 QuoteHow is this thread not in Speaker's Corner? Some of you won't be happy until you get it moved there. Nice work. Yup, I give up....some really good input.....but the rest is really not what I intended...... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next Page 6 of 7 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. 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freeflir29 0 #137 January 30, 2007 Quote"if you can't afford insurance, you can't afford to skydive" I STILL feel that way. Why? Who ultimately ends up paying? I do as a tax payer. I still happen to believe that we need to leave socialism to the CIS and European states. Americans should be responsible for themselves. Period. If they were America would be MUCH better off. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
edenney 0 #138 January 30, 2007 QuoteQuote"if you can't afford insurance, you can't afford to skydive" I STILL feel that way. Why? Who ultimately ends up paying? I do as a tax payer. I still happen to believe that we need to leave socialism to the CIS and European states. Americans should be responsible for themselves. Period. If they were America would be MUCH better off. As someone who's unfortunately intimately familiar with this topic I feel unequivocally that every skydiver should not only have insurance, but should have good insurance, and I agree that if you can't afford insurance you really shouldn't be in the sport. Unless you're independently wealthy or have a great deal of liquid savings (and I don't mean beer in the fridge), you should also consider some form of supplemental income insurance such as AFLAC etc. The above goes double for instructors, since they actually make their living from skydiving. The fact of the matter is the longer you stay in the sport and the more jumps you do, the greater your odds of having an incident, and the vast majority of skydivers are going to suffer some sort of injury sooner or later. If and more likely when you do, you're in for a rude awakening when those medical bills start rolling in and the income stops. In just the first 120 days that I was in the hospital I racked up over 2 million worth of medical bills. I've since racked up several hundred thousand more and I still have several major surgeries left to go. If I didn't have insurance (and an employer that kept me on the payroll & insurance during that time) not only would I have been dealing with all the horrifying things I went through in the hospital in the months immediately following my accident, but I would have lost my home and everything else. It's bad enough when you have to deal with your own recovery, believe me, you don't need the added stress of losing everything else you own, thoughts of bankruptcy, and worrying about where you're going to live, especially if you need long term care. For those of you who have insurance through your work as many people do including myself, remember that you may or may not be able to keep your job if you're seriously injured (or even moderately injured depending on the type of work). Although you can continue your benefits for a period of time after losing your job by paying for it out of your own pocket (Cobra etc.), you'll have to be able to make those insurance payments at the same time that you don't have any money coming in which can be pretty difficult. The bottom line is I really don't think people put enough thought into the consequences of what happens when you're injured in this sport. Most people have the "it won't happen to me mentality" and just put it out of their minds. Not only should everyone have insurance, you really should play out the scenarios of what would happen if you were injured to various degrees and be prepared for those eventualities. Sticking your head in the sand and not considering the ramifications will surely come back to haunt you if you stay in the sport long enough. It should just be considered a cost of doing business figuratively speaking, and literally speaking for instructors. Quite simply as others have stated, if you can't afford to have insurance you can't afford to be skydiving. Eric Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SBS 0 #139 January 30, 2007 QuoteIn just the first 120 days that I was in the hospital I racked up over 2 million worth of medical bills. That's just cause you refused to eat their slop and insisted on catered meals of lobster and filet mignon. _____________ I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #140 January 30, 2007 QuoteThat's just cause you refused to eat their slop and insisted on catered meals of lobster and filet mignon. You forgot to mention the on-call strippers and "happy ending" massage "techs". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MakeItHappen 15 #141 January 30, 2007 QuoteQuote"if you can't afford insurance, you can't afford to skydive" I STILL feel that way. Why? Who ultimately ends up paying? I do as a tax payer. I still happen to believe that we need to leave socialism to the CIS and European states. Americans should be responsible for themselves. Period. If they were America would be MUCH better off. This is really a weird conversation between the haves and have-nots. I think both sides do not fully understand the position of the other side. The 'haves' say "if you cannot afford insurance, you should not jump or cannot afford to jump." What I think this group is missing is that the people that do jump without insurance are the folks that do not need to 'afford' to jump. IOW, they do not pay for their jumps. The 'haves' look at their $200-400/weekend jump bill and say if you can afford that you can afford insurance. But the truth is that the folks that 'jump for income' do not have that $200-400/weekend bill. They have an income of $200-$400 per weekend. That measly income goes to pay for food, rent etc. Also the "haves" say that 'my tax dollars go to pay for those that cannot pay for their medical bills.' Well, as Dave pointed out, it's either your tax dollars or your premiums that go to pay for the other person's medical bills. Is there that much of a difference to you? If so, it should be along the lines that Dave also suggested that the person should still be billed for equivalent premiums. The 'have-nots' are not necessarily irresponsible. They may have the cash available from investments. Those that don't have the investments and no-insurance, know that they can and will pay as much as the can for medical bills, most anyway. But the remainder is subsidized. In their case, the subsidy comes from tax dollars. That really is not very different than the subsidy from others' premium payments. So I really do not understand why the 'haves' are so bent out of shape at the 'have-nots'. As I said in my first post to this thread, we'd all be better off if everyone had an equal footing in obtaining medical insurance, that was not attached to who you worked for or your employment status (indy vs ee). .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deuce 1 #142 January 30, 2007 To summarize? Insurance is good. Insurance is expensive. Expensive is relative to the income of the jumper. The income of full time jumpers puts them usually below the poverty line, and unable to buy insurance and own a black and white television at the same time. People without insurance still get red-helicopter rides when they crash, and are still treated in emergency rooms, regardless of their ability to pay. People living below the poverty line are unable to pay, and the counties pick this cost up. In California the Counties run the ER's. My sidebar: The Counties DO NOT want to treat anybody in the ER. Heck when I was a deputy, there were tons of women who would come in with menstrual cramps! Guys coming in with infected ingrown toenails (and gunshot wounds, but GSW's are cool, like skydiving crashes and BELONG in the ER) The counties in CA all have some sort of low-income subsidized health plan, as I've posted the one in Contra Costa (where Byron is). These plans tend to discriminate against healthy single young men, but healthy single young men usually just need catastrophic anyhow. For young healthy single men with infected ingrown toenails, make an appointment at the county clinic where you are charged on your ability to pay. Anyhow, Emergency rooms are like public schools. I don't choose to use them (much), but they are good for the overall benefit of society. They should allow orthopedic surgeons to do indigent work for a tax write off. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #143 January 30, 2007 QuoteThe Counties DO NOT want to treat anybody in the ER. Heck when I was a deputy, there were tons of women who would come in with menstrual cramps! I used to date an ER nurse who liked few things more than bitching about some of the patients who would come in to the ER. I think the worst was one night when she was working triage and a gal came in wanting a pregnancy test. She pointed out that such a test could easily be obtained a block and a half down the street at Rite-Aid for about $15, instead of the $300+ to use the ER. The gal said, "Yeah, but my medical coupons from the state cover hospital visits but not over-the-counter supplies at the drug store." Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ladydyver 0 #144 January 31, 2007 QuoteQuoteThe Counties DO NOT want to treat anybody in the ER. Heck when I was a deputy, there were tons of women who would come in with menstrual cramps! I used to date an ER nurse who liked few things more than bitching about some of the patients who would come in to the ER. I think the worst was one night when she was working triage and a gal came in wanting a pregnancy test. She pointed out that such a test could easily be obtained a block and a half down the street at Rite-Aid for about $15, instead of the $300+ to use the ER. The gal said, "Yeah, but my medical coupons from the state cover hospital visits but not over-the-counter supplies at the drug store." Blues, Dave Dave, As you know I am an ER nurse and am marrying an ER doc...we see the correct uses and abuses of the ER due to poor access, no access, or even the correct use of the ER. It is a vicious circle - that I hate to say will probably never change until the health care system crashes. People wonder why tylenol costs 4 $ in the ER - there are a lot of different factors. I know that our hospital tries to set up monthly payment plans and will even write off some of the cost of the visit. It does get frustrating however, when the above circumstance that you mention does occur - however, not everyone who comes in abuses the system; There are some patients that we see that have 50-100 visits a year...they come in with the same complaint every time....they can't get in to see their primary care physician....they don't like their pmd - they aren't taking care of them. There are some who have chronic illness who need to be seen. Its a coin toss on what your going to get.DPH # 2 "I am not sure what you are suppose to do with that, but I don't think it is suppose to flop around like that." ~Skootz~ I have a strong regard for the rules.......doc! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
edenney 0 #145 January 31, 2007 QuoteQuoteIn just the first 120 days that I was in the hospital I racked up over 2 million worth of medical bills. That's just cause you refused to eat their slop and insisted on catered meals of lobster and filet mignon. The only eating or drinking I did was through feeding tubes, and that definitely wasn't puree'd filet mignon coming out of those bags Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydivermom 0 #146 January 31, 2007 ***The only eating or drinking I did was through feeding tubes, and that definitely wasn't puree'd filet mignon coming out of those bags Quote Holy Crap! I'm just glad you are okay and I wish you the best of luck on the remainder of your treatment.Mrs. WaltAppel All things work together for good to them that love God...Romans 8:28 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freeflir29 0 #147 January 31, 2007 QuoteThis is really a weird conversation between the haves and have-nots. No it isn't. Granted........I currently make what I think a majority of the population would say is "a lot" of money. However......in Dec 2000 I was fresh out of the military. Had no job and thus no company insurance. I went and bought a major medical policy for $275 IIRC to cover me for 3 or 6 months. Don't remember which. So at least if I was in a car accident or something I would have SOME coverage. I also made the CHOICE not to jump. WHy........the insurance I had sucked. My financial position wasn't really good. Although I had planned and saved for getting out of the military it's depressing to watch your bank account go only one direction. If I had gotten seriously hurt back then my life would have been a WRECK. No money, huge bills, little prospects for improvement. I made SACRIFICES in order to make sure I took care of myself. I didn't say "Fuck it........someone else will pay for it and take care of my mistakes." I didn't jump for about 6 months. Granted you know EXACTLY what I bought when I got my first pay check. Yep.........A RIG! People who sit around and make arguments about why someone else should pay their bills are irresponsible. PERIOD. If they want to shit in their own beds I say let them lie in it. Quote The 'have-nots' are not necessarily irresponsible. QuoteBut the remainder is subsidized. Subsidized..........yes.........SOMEONE ELSE is paying for their piss poor planning. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sartre 0 #148 January 31, 2007 How is this thread not in Speaker's Corner? Some of you won't be happy until you get it moved there. Nice work. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freeflir29 0 #149 January 31, 2007 Sorry........this is a pet peeve with me. I get a little agitated. I edited to make it slightly less rude. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bigbearfng 16 #150 February 2, 2007 QuoteHow is this thread not in Speaker's Corner? Some of you won't be happy until you get it moved there. Nice work. Yup, I give up....some really good input.....but the rest is really not what I intended...... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next Page 6 of 7 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
freeflir29 0 #147 January 31, 2007 QuoteThis is really a weird conversation between the haves and have-nots. No it isn't. Granted........I currently make what I think a majority of the population would say is "a lot" of money. However......in Dec 2000 I was fresh out of the military. Had no job and thus no company insurance. I went and bought a major medical policy for $275 IIRC to cover me for 3 or 6 months. Don't remember which. So at least if I was in a car accident or something I would have SOME coverage. I also made the CHOICE not to jump. WHy........the insurance I had sucked. My financial position wasn't really good. Although I had planned and saved for getting out of the military it's depressing to watch your bank account go only one direction. If I had gotten seriously hurt back then my life would have been a WRECK. No money, huge bills, little prospects for improvement. I made SACRIFICES in order to make sure I took care of myself. I didn't say "Fuck it........someone else will pay for it and take care of my mistakes." I didn't jump for about 6 months. Granted you know EXACTLY what I bought when I got my first pay check. Yep.........A RIG! People who sit around and make arguments about why someone else should pay their bills are irresponsible. PERIOD. If they want to shit in their own beds I say let them lie in it. Quote The 'have-nots' are not necessarily irresponsible. QuoteBut the remainder is subsidized. Subsidized..........yes.........SOMEONE ELSE is paying for their piss poor planning. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sartre 0 #148 January 31, 2007 How is this thread not in Speaker's Corner? Some of you won't be happy until you get it moved there. Nice work. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #149 January 31, 2007 Sorry........this is a pet peeve with me. I get a little agitated. I edited to make it slightly less rude. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigbearfng 16 #150 February 2, 2007 QuoteHow is this thread not in Speaker's Corner? Some of you won't be happy until you get it moved there. Nice work. Yup, I give up....some really good input.....but the rest is really not what I intended...... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
