Rear riser landing with brakes stowed - good idea or bad idea?

[PhreeZone 15]

My wife has landed this configuration due to a very similar situation at about half the experience level as the jumper mentioned in this thread. Her issue was post canopy course for her where in her course they discussed and practiced flying on rears but also did not have to land on them. I think its a very valuable skill to have because there is nothing out there saying that your reserve will not have an issue if you go to use it. Odds are low of it having an issue but it is not unheard of to have reserve issues also.

I work with all my friends to at least cover the basics of how to do these type landings before they get to 100 jumps so they can practice with them in case they even need to use the option. I usually recommend they try it on higher wind days if they want to practice the landings but only after they do several rear riser stalls at high altitude to know what that feels like also.

I land my canopy on risers with no toggle input from time to time just to keep current on it. I also use the rears for every swoop landing anymore.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[riggerrob 558]

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Last month I landed a tandem with a step-through BELOW the slider. There was bit more friction on the steering lines, but I still got a decent landing.

Isn't there a concern that the friction would keep the line down, when you try to let it up?

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Yes, which is why I did a through control check - with toggles - before reaching my (3,000 foot) decision height.

[azureriders 0]

I had a very similiar situation at just about her experience level. although one toggle would not release, it was not due to a step through, I was practicaly at sea level, and I had a fair amount of rear riser practice for some one with 250ish jumps. I landed it and walked away with no issues. I will say however that is was not only the practice with rear risers, but also with PLFs that saved my day. I hit pretty hard.

[fcajump 153]

While I do not like the idea of cutting away from a "good" canopy... that is the first decision that you always have to make...

Is this a good/safe canopy to land given:
any damage
any entanglements
configuration problems
at this field elevation
given my experience flying a canopy with the above findings?
are the results of the above likely to change before we land??


If you have never flown on rears, including to flare, on this canopy (or any) and if you do not have time to learn before decision altitude, then maybe this is not a good time to learn.

Also With a riser twist and still stowed brake(s), the canopy is very different than it would be if you have flown on rears when the brakes were unstowed.

And flying with the brakes when the lines are twisted results in the possibility of having a brake line snag in a down position and not being able to return that side to full flight.

So, bottom line from the given information...
I would say she probably did the right thing.

I would also say that everyone should try flying/flaring their canopy in rears (up high) in both stowed, 1-line stowed, and unstowed. If you are a student, talk with the instructor first. And remember that each canopy flies different on rears.

One that I flew last week did flare on rears, but its stall was unannounced, sudden, complete and higher in the pull than I thought it would be... (that's why I tried it, and high) Cruselite XL, wragged out, loaded 1.1

Learn/live,
Jim

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[flipper 0]

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So a friend of my recently had her first mal. Background - she was packing, got disturbed, went away from the pack job and returned and packed what sounds like some kind of step through (I did not see it). Did a hop and pop, found one riser twisted 180 degrees, could not release brakes so chopped and landed safely on her reserve.

Someone who has something like a part time safety officer role (I think it is rotated between people) told her she should have considered a rear riser landing.

Other relevant information

- she has relatively low jump numbers (I think about 250 ish)

- this year completed a canopy control course with one of the top european schools (the course introduces the concept of rear riser landings - with brakes unstowed - but students are not required to try them)

- she has recently (within the last 40 jumps) downsized to I think a Pilot 150 (not sure of wing loading but it will not be very high)

- she jumps at a high altitude drop zone (I think about 5,000 feet asl, or thereabouts) which can be hot at this time of the year (maybe high 20s centigrade)

Comments welcome.

She totally did the right thing - No discussion

I know of one expirenced jumper who was very badly injured landing on rears with both brakes stowed

[jacketsdb23 45]

Warning here: I don't advocate doing this...

About 15 - 20 of my last 30 or so jumps I have been landing my Xfire 2 119 (~1.75WL) almost exclusively with rear risers. I have done this in varying wind conditions from 30 mph down to 5 - 8. I have become very familiar with rears and I haven't been bitten by the turf monster yet. That being said, especially in our landing area, I would not recommend doing this as I use my feet to slide out landings and adjust pressure on the rears accordingly. These are 270 degree turns to final that I'm doing this and I have bailed to toggles a few times while experimenting with landing with my rears.

I would be extremely comfortable landing on rears with my brakes released. If I had one released and one "stuck" I would probably cut the stuck line and land on rears rather comfortably. But this is my procedure, and I can say this because I've been practicing it and I have 800+ jumps.

For anyone never practicing it and not knowing how their canopy fly's I would say cut away and land the reserve.

Personally - a main that is open and can be corrected with some sort of easy procedure is not worth the minimal risk of a Reserve problem. That is why I practice landings on rears.

Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen
God is Good
Beer is Great
Swoopers are crazy.

[Beachbum 0]

I also fly a Tri 160 just at 1:1. I've done a rear riser landing with brakes stowed, and didn't have problems with it trying to stall. I HAVE had a canopy course from Scott Miller during which we discussed such, and I've done quite a lot of practicing with risers up high, so was quite comfortable when I needed to land it that way. Trickier yes, but if you have practiced flying that way, quite doable even for those of us with low #s. Just like learning to flare in the first place ... if you have practiced using rears then you have a good idea where the stall point is so you just don't go there.

As long as you are happy with yourself ... who cares what the rest of the world thinks?

[SwampGod 0]

So... to keep it on topic, I agree with the cutaway for the individual in question. If you don't feel comfortable landing a canopy, move on.


I do have a question, though... If we assume:

brakes stowed = flying in brakes

...and we know how to flare from a braked approach....

What about reaching above the toggle, grabbing the brake line, and flaring using that?


I ask as I had my excess brake line jam up last jump on the straight-pin attachment point on the back of my left toggle. I got it out using force (after some gentle attempts failed), but afterward I was going through my options.

I was going to use the hook knife on the brake line before cutting away, as I'd rather land on rears than with one stowed brake and one unstowed, and I'd rather land on rears than cutaway.... but when I thought about it later on the ground, I wondered if there was anything wrong (apart from getting a good grip and having to reach really high) with flaring using only the brake line. In this case, I may have even grabbed the right, unstowed brake line at the same point, just so i could have flared "evenly" with right and left.

Any thoughts? Seems like it should work....

Thanks!

-eli

[Bolas 5]

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What about explaining to jumpers how to twist their risers to roll the step through lower.

I'm unfamiliar with this, can you explain?

[AggieDave 6]

Reach up and grab the twist in the risers with a hand, do both at the same time if you would like. You twist the riser the same direction of the step through. This works the step through lower, to unlock your toggles from the twist (if it is that high on the risers). Obviously this only works if the step through is below the slider.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Will_Evo 0]

I don't think I would have tried to land it with both brakes stowed, I just don't know how much lift to expect with brakes stowed to land safely. I have on the other hand, unfortunately had a toggle knot up when I released them, put me in a VERY slow left turn, after trying to fix it, I decided it was slow enough to land, and held the right toggle against the rear riser down enough to fly straight and landed with rears to a tip toe landing

-Evo

Zoo Crew

[agnieszkas 2]

Thank you all for valuable input.

I was the person you were all discussing.

Facts:
- I did my own pack job and was distracted. My own fault and no one else to blame.
- Jump 273 - yes low number.
- canopy - pilot 150. Wing loading 0.95
- drop zone - Johannesburg, South Africa. High altitude drop zone.
- weather conditions - hot, specially for this time of the year - plus 29 celsius.
- Hop and pop from 6800 feet.
- Under the fully inflated canopy at 5800 feet
- Both risers twisted. Right toggle inside the twist. No chances to release (tried moving the right twist up, but my body weight not allowing it).
Actually, what is still not clear to me is that the right side looked like had 3 full twists, while the left only one. If I ever thought someone wanted to make a joke on me, that would have been a way to go ;-)
- Left toggle - would have been able to release, as the twist above. Decided not to release the left one, as that could put me into a spin.
- Decision to cut away was well thought. Reason - I WOULD NOT be able to land this canopy properly.
- Under the fully inflated reserve just under 4000 feet.
- I DID the right thing.

Lessons learnt:
1. When you start packing, you finish it, than talk to people that have urgent requests...
2. Each drop zone is full of macho guys that think they can give you advice and know better (and specially when you are a chick in a red jumpsuit). If you listen to everything they say and take their advice, you might find yourself in bigger shit than you would have been in a first place.
3. If you have a low number of jumps and you are not an experienced sky diver, you get even more advice. It can make you really sick.
4. Blokes are obviously stronger than even us, quite fit chicks. I really could not roll the twist. Gym more ;-)
5. Each person makes own decision within his/hers ability or level at that point. The objective of the sky dive should always be a safe landing. I certainly hope, no jumper with lower numbers listened to all the great suggestions and will not try it in his free time before getting proper briefing or training. AS I HAVE NEVER DONE A REAR RISER LANDING BEFORE, TRYING IT ON MY FIRST RESERVE RIDE WAS NOT THE GREATEST IDEA OF MAN KIND.

Outcome:
Reserve ride saturday morning. Reserve repacked sunday afternoon (thank you to a rigger, that not only was prepared to pack my reserve on saturday afternoon, but even cooked a dinner for me and my kid).
Jumped already on sunday.

Sky diving is a great place to be and makes me feel alive. I don't need to prove anything to anybody, not even to myself. I enjoy every jump, every learning experience and every second of it. I meet great people along and great egos. Learnt a lot from this experience and from "good and bad ideas".

Blue skies
Agnieszka

[agnieszkas 2]

Sorry - typo (it happens when you write your response in a small window)
AS I HAVE NEVER DONE A REAR RISER LANDING BEFORE, TRYING IT INSTEAD MY FIRST RESERVE RIDE WAS NOT THE GREATEST IDEA OF MAN KIND.

[P-dro 0]

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Using your last chance to live. It's not exchanging a challenging landing for a perfect canopy and landing. It's exchanging a challenging landing for a CHANCE at a perfect canopy and so-so landing under a canopy that may be undersized and unfamiliar design and handling.

A person I know had a stuck brake, she didn't want to chop, she tried to land it and broke two vertebrae. she won't jump for a while, if ever....

Of course given the correct skillset landing on rear is definitively feasible, but for most people I see on the dropzone (ie with very basic canopy skills, a shame but true nevertheless) it can be a dangerous bet....

[spootch 0]

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Using your last chance to live. It's not exchanging a challenging landing for a perfect canopy and landing. It's exchanging a challenging landing for a CHANCE at a perfect canopy and so-so landing under a canopy that may be undersized and unfamiliar design and handling.

A person I know had a stuck brake, she didn't want to chop, she tried to land it and broke two vertebrae. she won't jump for a while, if ever....

Of course given the correct skillset landing on rear is definitively feasible, but for most people I see on the dropzone (ie with very basic canopy skills, a shame but true nevertheless) it can be a dangerous bet....

True dat