VISO's and new jumpers

[d100965 0]

Guys,
Just recently I've noticed when doing checks on the flightline that more and more new jumpers are using Electronic Altis. (like a VISO). It seems to me that it's very low jumps numbers as well. The 2 guys/girls I checked recently were either straight off AFF or less than 25 jumps. I've also just answered a VISO question in the Gear forum for a guy with 30 jumps.
My concern is A. We are all notoriously bad at reading manuals so we don't know the ins and outs of our equipment.
And 2. My VISO has the protector screen cut out because its difficult to see in freefall, especially during Freeflying. However I use it primarily as a Swooping aid (I also have an analogue alti on my leg strap) But I feel my years spent on an analogue alti have also put me in good stead and thus I have developed a good altitude awareness.

So is a VISO/Electronic Alti a good idea for newbies?

[DSE 3]

I'd suggest that what they were trained with is the best option for them to initially purchase.
I wanted electronic alti for logging; I bought an Altitrack because I prefer the analog face (which is what I started with). But if as a student, they had a large-face Digitude or similar, then perhaps a Viso is perfect for them, although it might not be what you nor I might want.

[Fast 0]

Depends on the jumper I think. For me, I can't read an analog alti for shit. I grew up with digital clocks though and for the most part am much better at reading things off a screen.

I also have to agree though that the Viso is semi-difficult to read in some orientations. I liked the idea of it when it was first coming out but seeing them in person I very much prefer my neptune which is very readable.

I have an analog alti sitting in my locker incase my neptune breaks. The only time I have used it was for the AFF course cause it's the same kind of alti the evaluators were using and I wanted things to match.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[humbled1 0]

Not sure how it works at other DZs or in other countries, but at Elsinore students cannot use a digital altimeter till they get their A. I purchased my alti before I took my FJC so I got the Altitrack as well.

& yes I completely agree with you regarding the manual, I have a Viso that I wear on my mudflap. (which I too, had to remove the portion of the protector over the screen cuz of trouble seeing it.) On saturday night we were doing night jumps and on the way to altitude the light on my visio went off, my altitrack was on tho, got down, packed and turned the light back on, I get on the plane and realize its still on but now reading in meters. Needless to say I just focused on my wrist alti. But to be fair to skydivers (including myself), the L&B manuals are pretty confusing.

I did read up on both devices regarding the light function and even brought the roadmaps with me, still was not simple.

Just last week a jumper on Level 3 was moaning and bitching they would not let him wear his Viso or Mamba until he gets his A.

"Tell ya the truth, I don't think this is a brains kind of operation."

[siddacious 0]

Having had failures on both types of alti, I don't see any reason to support technophobia. It is a well known fact that either type of alti can break, and a less known fact that you shouldn't need an alti in the first place.

Are you arguing that there is something about analog alti's that promotes altitude awareness?

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[GaryRay 0]

ive been using one since i went to solo status, as a relatively new jumper and one that has grown up on it, i dont see it as a problem, i dont know what was used before the analog alti's but do you think those old timers were worried about the "new" analog ones, its just growing with the times.

JewBag.
www.jewbag.wordpress.com

[brettski74 0]

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you shouldn't need an alti in the first place.

Huh? So what are you suggesting? You don't need to skydive either, but you seem to be indicating that an alti is not an important piece of safety equipment for a skydive. If that is the case, I must respectfully disagree.

[jurgencamps 0]

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you shouldn't need an alti in the first place.

Huh? So what are you suggesting? You don't need to skydive either, but you seem to be indicating that an alti is not an important piece of safety equipment for a skydive. If that is the case, I must respectfully disagree.

mmmmh please quote correctly. He never said that.

[siddacious 0]

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you shouldn't need an alti in the first place.

Huh? So what are you suggesting? You don't need to skydive either, but you seem to be indicating that an alti is not an important piece of safety equipment for a skydive. If that is the case, I must respectfully disagree.

I did not suggest (or mean to) that altis are not useful pieces of equipment. What I mean is that there seems to be too much worrying about what type of alti someone has, and not enough about their ability to pull and land without one.

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[siddacious 0]

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ive been using one since i went to solo status, as a relatively new jumper and one that has grown up on it, i dont see it as a problem, i dont know what was used before the analog alti's but do you think those old timers were worried about the "new" analog ones, its just growing with the times.

I don't know how much alti technology there was before analog altis, but I'm sure someone had questions about them when they first became popular. It's not that it's a bad question, just the wrong question in this case at least.

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[billvon 2,400]

>but you seem to be indicating that an alti is not an important piece
>of safety equipment for a skydive.

For newer jumpers, yes, it is. Experienced jumpers should learn to judge altitude via other cues (i.e. looking at the ground.) The safest jumper is a jumper who does not need to refer to an altimeter - but carries one anyway.

[coconutmonkey 0]

Just spit ballin here, but does anyone know the difference in cognition times of looking at an analog image vs processing the digital numbers? Or would the image recognition be the same?

Hearts & Minds
2 to the Heart-
1 to the Mind-
Home of the Coconut Lounge, Spa, & Artillery Range

[LloydDobbler 2]

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Just spit ballin here, but does anyone know the difference in cognition times of looking at an analog image vs processing the digital numbers? Or would the image recognition be the same?

I think it would depend largely on a number of different variables. Specifically, the jumper in question (who's a bundle of variables, themselves).

When I moved from analog to a Neptune at around 40 jumps, I found it much quicker to read. Possibly because I spend 5 days a week looking at digital words on a computer screen...possibly because it's just me.

When I added a backup analog to my mudflap mount, it took a little adjustment but I soon got used to where the standard breakoff & pull altitudes were on the altimeter, spatially, when viewed from that perspective.

Having recently shipped my Neptune back for repairs, I'm back to an analog on the wrist. After 5 jumps, I still find it incredibly slow to read, and I'm SO looking forward to getting my digital back.

I guess my point is, it depends on the person. Personally, I think both analog and digital altimeters have their drawbacks, and both types can be dangerous for students and newly-licensed jumpers. It's six one way, half-dozen another. And while I can somewhat understand requiring a student to stick with the same thing until licensed, after that, personal preference should be the only deciding factor.

Signatures are the new black.

[bucketlistpilot 1]

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Depends on the jumper I think. For me, I can't read an analog alti for shit. I grew up with digital clocks though and for the most part am much better at reading things off a screen.

Switched to a Neptune after 6 jumps. I look at digital info all day for work and find the Neptune far easier to read than the analogue.

Ian Purvis
http://www.loadupsoftware.com
LoadUp DZ Management App
[email protected]

[NiteQwill 0]

I prefer analog faces with what I'm reading, both my watch and alti.

Here is my medical side coming out of me:
Reading an analog or digital device is spatial or a numerical activity for the brain. An analog reading requires both while a digital only requires the latter.

The advantage of an analog reading is that, if you grew up and use an analog clock every day (a watch, for example), the reading becomes habitual and "burned" into your mind, making "reading" almost immediate due to hand positioning.

A digital reading, in an age of TV, internet, and wrist watches, it becomes "easier" to read because numerical characters are pretty straightforward and require less cognitive effort.

With that said... Personal preference on an alti is up to the user I believe.

"Fail, fail again. Fail better."
-Samuel Beckett

[brettski74 0]

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The safest jumper is a jumper who does not need to refer to an altimeter - but carries one anyway.

I agree that you can and do learn to estimate altitude from visual and other cues as you gain experience. An altimeter may not be necessary, but it is important and should be carried if at all possible. I felt that the way that the original statement was put out there with no qualification like "you should carry one anyway" could give some newer jumpers the wrong idea. That was my point.

[Hellis 0]

yes. i belive this is one of those things nobody can tell anyone else what is right and wrong.
everyone has their opinion about what is correct for themselfs.

personally i think analog altis are too big and harder to read.
some people compare it with clocks, saying analog clocks is easier.
to some it is, to some its not. and last time i looked at a analoge clock the hands on the clock was going the opposite way around as on the alti.
this HAS caused problems, i know one student that was mistaken on the alti because it was going the 'wrong way'.

a car with a automatic gearbox should be easier to drive since there is less to think about and only two pedals. if that would be fact why are manual geard cars still sold?
i cant drive automatic geard cars, get confused and i always use the wrong foot to break

when someone says analog altis are easier to read, it just sounds silly to me.
its like if i would say Javelins are the easiest rigg to close.
i bet that would be a very long discussion

[pilotdave 0]

I recommend analog altimeters to new jumpers for a couple reasons. First, no batteries to die. That works later if they go with a digital in the future. It's always good to have an analog altimeter in the gear bag for when the digital goes blank. I've been on 2 night jumps where my digital altimeter's backlight didn't work. Of course it was because I didn't follow the instructions and put in a fresh battery before the night jumps. But now I go with a glow in the dark galaxy for night jumps.

The second reason is that a digital altimeter needs to be read, where an analog will give you a pretty good idea of altitude even if you can't see the numbers. If the dial is on the left side, you're still above 6K. If it's pointing to the right, it's probably about time to be pulling.

A digital can easily be misread. Get that first digit wrong and you could be in big trouble. Look in an aircraft cockpit. Even a modern aircraft with all digital displays. You won't see just numbers anywhere... if they're important. You'll always have some kind of graphical representation to go with the numbers. There's a reason for it.

But in the end, does it matter? Does anybody look at altimeters anymore? Don't we all just track when we hear a beep?

Dave

[faulknerwn 36]

The funny part is - the only nightjump I ever did which I had altimeter problems was an analog! I was doing a 4-way night jump with some friends and I wanted to leave higher than they did. But at the time I had an analog altimeter, and everytime I looked at it I could read the numbers but not the needle! No idea why I couldn't see it but I was basically looking at a blank altimeter! I ended up breaking off at their altitude (we all had at least a couple thousand jumps so it wasn't dangerous - I'm just a weenie when it comes to night jumps :-)

I've had 0 issues with my variety of digital altimeters at night...

[davjohns 1]

I bought a VISO right out of AFF. Reading the analog took me forever during flight. The VISO worked for me on the first jump at a glance. In my case, it's safer. I took the time to read the manual and keep the quick reference guide in the bag with it. I watch during ascent to ensure it is tracking and consistent with other divers' altis.

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[CMiller 1]

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For newer jumpers, yes, it is. Experienced jumpers should learn to judge altitude via other cues (i.e. looking at the ground.) The safest jumper is a jumper who does not need to refer to an altimeter - but carries one anyway.

On a bigway, when tracking and pulling at very specific altitudes is critical, how do you expect someone to do that without an altimeter? I can think of plenty of other examples where you'd have to be more precise than what you intuition can provide. I don't know why a lot of people put faith in the idea that good jumpers don't NEED altis.

[siddacious 0]

I think Bill and I are both referring to the circumstance where not having an alti is not a choice. I would hope that a person doing big ways would know well enough to look around to what is happening around him and deploy based on that if he had a problem with his alti. Bill said specifically that an alti is a useful tool, but the jumper shouldn't be useless without one (If they had no choice in the matter).

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[billvon 2,400]

>On a bigway, when tracking and pulling at very specific altitudes is critical, how
>do you expect someone to do that without an altimeter?

On most bigways I don't check my altimeter until I am under canopy.

My primary measure of altitude is visual; I can see if we are significantly too low.

My primary means of breakoff is generally a signal from the center. Often an organizer will plan a breakoff 500-1000 feet higher than absolutely needed for safety, and then hold the formation for longer if the last person is about to dock.

Once breakoff has begun, my primary means of altitude measurement is time, with my eyes as backup. I know that from 5500 feet to 2500 feet is about 15 seconds, and thus I track for about 12 seconds, stop, wave off and check around, and deploy (assuming a 5500 foot breakoff and a 2500 foot assigned pull altitude.)

During breakoff there's a lot going on. The biggest danger is a collision at opening time, and thus you may be better off looking around than looking at an altimeter. (Although there's nothing wrong with glancing at it as a backup.)

>I don't know why a lot of people put faith in the idea that good jumpers don't NEED altis.

They're great backups. But you should not need one to safely complete a skydive. If someone _does_ need an altimeter, then it is worthwhile working on the skills needed to judge altitude independently of the altimeter - so that if it ever fails they will not have a problem tracking/deploying at safe altitudes.

[chuckakers 370]

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Guys,
Just recently I've noticed when doing checks on the flightline that more and more new jumpers are using Electronic Altis. (like a VISO). It seems to me that it's very low jumps numbers as well. The 2 guys/girls I checked recently were either straight off AFF or less than 25 jumps. I've also just answered a VISO question in the Gear forum for a guy with 30 jumps.
My concern is A. We are all notoriously bad at reading manuals so we don't know the ins and outs of our equipment.
And 2. My VISO has the protector screen cut out because its difficult to see in freefall, especially during Freeflying. However I use it primarily as a Swooping aid (I also have an analogue alti on my leg strap) But I feel my years spent on an analogue alti have also put me in good stead and thus I have developed a good altitude awareness.

So is a VISO/Electronic Alti a good idea for newbies?

What aspect of a digital altimeter are you asking about? Not sure what reading manuals has to do with anything. I recently began using my wife's Viso and never cracked the manual. I turned it on, it calibrated itself, and I jumped it. I also own a digitude and there's not much to know about those either. I'm sure there are units that require some knowledge to operate, but none are rocket science.

If you are worried about young jumpers reading a digital instead of the "needle on the dial", no need. There are many DZ's using digital altimeters on students without problems of any kind. I used them at my DZ very successfully. We liked the fact that the display reads the way students are taught to think of their altitude - 11.2, 5.5, etc.

As for using whatever kind of equipment - students can typically use any equipment they are well trained to use. There was a time when everyone thought students should start on an SOS and then transition to a two-handled emergency procedure later. Now days many students/novices couldn't tell you what an SOS system is. Throwout pilot chutes were also dangerous for students - right up until they weren't.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[dragon2 0]

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What aspect of a digital altimeter are you asking about? Not sure what reading manuals has to do with anything

What about having to adjust for a different landing altitude (as happens sometimes at one of the DZ's close to me), or knowing when/when not the damn thing is going to reset itself? We had a demo jump where the pilot was told to fly over Schiphol Airport at 1000ft, which he did, and all neptunes on board reset themselves after a while to this new "ground level" also one time after a car drive: after getting checked in, getting my gear checked, once in the airplane for our first jump my Neptune, Wave and possibly Argus too were all set to -1200ft or something

ciel bleu,
Saskia