phoenixlpr 0 #26 November 10, 2009 Things can get worse from bad quite fast. Its better to cut the shit away 800m than get a pile of sh1t at 200m when you can not really do anything with that.... You got lucky. Think more next time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #27 November 11, 2009 Quote Things can get worse from bad quite fast. Its better to cut the shit away 800m than get a pile of sh1t at 200m when you can not really do anything with that.... You got lucky. Think more next time. completely agree with this; i think there was some dangerous "advice" further up; you do have a reserve for something, better use it! if you cant "trust" your reserve, you better shoot yourself in the head next time you're under canopy.. “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohanW 0 #28 November 11, 2009 Why shoot myself? I have a good canopy overhead this time; I have a spare if I can't land the first one. But if I can land the first one, there's no need to roll the dice again. It's only a parachute, it can fail. I'll give you that estimating the descent speed of a damaged main may be difficult to do, but this is where experience comes in, too. If the wind is blowing harder than normal, I think I might notice.Johan. I am. I think. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #29 November 11, 2009 chances are less likely it will fail, since your main already failed; it's a broken parachute, it should go! at least that's what i would do.. “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #30 November 11, 2009 None would question of your decision if you cut it away. Don't worry, let experienced guys do mid-air rigging and getting more experienced with "perfectly good" canopies. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
timmyfitz 0 #31 November 11, 2009 QuoteDid I make the right decision not to cut away? Yes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #32 November 11, 2009 “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #33 November 11, 2009 I'm going to vote with those who said cut away. An opening that's hard enough to break a line and open a hole you can see in the bottom skin is hard enough to tear a hole in the top skin that you can't see. To the person who commented "there wasn't a hole in the top skin", the only part of the top skin that was visible to you (under canopy) was the part that you could see through the hole in the bottom skin. JP is right; rip-stop is designed, ideally, to stop the rip, but sometimes it doesn't. If your descent rate is too high, a standard controllability check may very well not reveal it; you really can't gauge it until you're too low to do much more than quickly get more fabric over your head (if that). And if a medium-sized hole in your top skin ruptures into a large hole at, say, 150 feet, you could have a pretty bad day. I'm also dismayed at those who don't know what a canopy transfer is, and/or how and when to do one. Like Kim said, that should be FJC stuff, and reinforced on the way to getting an A license. That being said, newer jumpers shouldn't start thinking about a canopy transfer as the preferred Plan A for a low-speed partial malfunction if one is still at a safe cutaway altitude; if that was the case, it would be taught that way - and it's not. Oh, BTW, looking at the video, if you'd had a harder landing, I don't think that "helmet you were wearing" would have protected your melon very much... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #34 November 11, 2009 QuoteOh, BTW, looking at the video, if you'd had a harder landing, I don't think that "helmet you were wearing" would have protected your melon very much... nice catch!“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fasted3 0 #35 November 11, 2009 I like the way you make a vote rather than a pronouncement about this. I feel the same about my vote, which, knowing me, would probably have gone the other way. If I thought I could land it wihout getting broken, I'd stick with it. Of course I could be wrong... that's what keeps this interesting. Let's simplify into 4 possible outcomes: No cutaway, good result No cutaway, bad result Cutaway... well you get the point. I submit that every possible outcome could generate a lot of shouting on here about who was right, who wrong, and who should take up bowling. The bottom line is that any decision AT THAT TIME that results in a good result can not be faulted. It can not be ruled out, or proven, that a better result may be possible, but the same applies to the opposite. In other words. had this guy cut away, and for whatever reason gotten hurt, I can just hear the clicking of the keys: what an idiot for cutting away! Anyway, this has generated some good discussion. Thinking about problems ahead of time leads to better decisions when they need to be made in split seconds. But what do I know? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #36 November 11, 2009 My personal *vote* if it was me under the canopy: If it passed a rigorous control check, I'd land it. The load bearing seam that took the hit has more reinforcement along the rest of the seam. I trust it would stay in one piece. The color of the canopy and the sun that was shining on top was enough to see if a hole was present in the top skin. If the handling was questionable or the canopy was much smaller, I'd fly it to a better spot and cut it away.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiver604 0 #37 November 11, 2009 Judging what's posted here I am going to agree that canopy transfer should have been taught on the FJC course. The dz where I took my FJC uses student rigs with an SOS cutaway sysytem (single handle), I did not get trained on the two handle system until after I complete Solo certification and bought my own gear. Personally I would have took one look at the tear in the canopy, checked altitude, and if high enough chopped and gone for reserve in that situation. I will definitely be contacting one of the instructors where I jump for a course in canopy transfer. Thanks for all the info and guidance. Chris "The greater danger for most of us is not that our aim is too high and we miss it, but that it is too low and we reach it." - Michelangelo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
midlifecrisis 0 #38 November 11, 2009 Once again... Thank you for all your input. I know that each of us have our own ideas, but with all those ideas I hope to learn how to make better decisions in the future. This particular jump turned out to have a good ending, but I want to be as prepaired as possible next time I have to make a decision. Next time I may not be sitting under canopy at 4000 and have all the time I need to evaluate things. Thanks again! Keep em coming! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kmills0705 0 #39 November 11, 2009 QuoteJudging what's posted here I am going to agree that canopy transfer should have been taught on the FJC course. The dz where I took my FJC uses student rigs with an SOS cutaway sysytem (single handle), I did not get trained on the two handle system until after I complete Solo certification and bought my own gear. Personally I would have took one look at the tear in the canopy, checked altitude, and if high enough chopped and gone for reserve in that situation. I will definitely be contacting one of the instructors where I jump for a course in canopy transfer. Thanks for all the info and guidance. Chris Chris, why wouldn't you have done a controllability check? That is taught FJC as well. I have landed a damaged canopy with around the same numbers. With a bigger more docile canopy and minimal inputs to land safely I would have a hard time recommending going to reserve. There is a big difference when I give advice. I don't talk about what I would do to a person with low jump numbers. I talk in terms of what their options are and how they can handle it. I am just also so very dismayed to hear how much consistency and coverage (or lack there of) of information people are getting in their FJC's.Kim Mills USPA D21696 Tandem I, AFF I and Static Line I Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiver604 0 #40 November 11, 2009 A controlability check would seem to be the best option first. On the same token I've only got about 20-25 jumps on the 230 I'm flying now, I'm still learning how this canopy flies and flares under different conditions. Up to now my canopy experience has been on well used F111 so the ZP hybrid i'm flying now is a brand new animal. It has also taken a lot of hard work to get where I am at now, between having to lose a few pounds ( from 305 lbs to 210 lbs over a 9 month period) to be able to jump safely and having a severe rotator cuff injury (1 year healing time with 6 months of physio) I'm probably overcautious and don't take too many chances. As my jump numbers, knowledge and experience increases I will be able to react to emergencies differently. Essentially I am focusing on staying safe, learning as much as I can and having fun. I'm sure there could be improvements in FJC content and consistency.(i'm not even going to comment on that as I do not consider myself qualified to comment and my opinion means shit anyways) I read the forums daily and get what I can out of them, if something new comes up that I don't know about I pop a quick email off to instructors I know and if necessary set up additional coaching at the DZ. Again my main goal is to be safe. and yes I do a controlability check on every jump after opening after ensuring the airspace around me is clear "The greater danger for most of us is not that our aim is too high and we miss it, but that it is too low and we reach it." - Michelangelo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kmills0705 0 #41 November 11, 2009 Quote A controlability check would seem to be the best option first. On the same token I've only got about 20-25 jumps on the 230 I'm flying now, I'm still learning how this canopy flies and flares under different conditions. Up to now my canopy experience has been on well used F111 so the ZP hybrid i'm flying now is a brand new animal. It has also taken a lot of hard work to get where I am at now, between having to lose a few pounds ( from 305 lbs to 210 lbs over a 9 month period) to be able to jump safely and having a severe rotator cuff injury (1 year healing time with 6 months of physio) I'm probably overcautious and don't take too many chances. As my jump numbers, knowledge and experience increases I will be able to react to emergencies differently. Essentially I am focusing on staying safe, learning as much as I can and having fun. I'm sure there could be improvements in FJC content and consistency.(i'm not even going to comment on that as I do not consider myself qualified to comment and my opinion means shit anyways) I read the forums daily and get what I can out of them, if something new comes up that I don't know about I pop a quick email off to instructors I know and if necessary set up additional coaching at the DZ. Again my main goal is to be safe. and yes I do a controlability check on every jump after opening after ensuring the airspace around me is clear And that is what it is one's own decision. The variables are different from person to person. What is right and works for you may not work for someone else. My only point was taking one look at the canopy and immediately go for reserve. The OP stated he had a lot of altitude, so he had time to make a decision. That was wise. I just think if you are not out of control and have the altitude then see what you have to work with.Kim Mills USPA D21696 Tandem I, AFF I and Static Line I Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiver604 0 #42 November 11, 2009 That's good advice, I will keep that in mind if and when I ever need to. Thanks "The greater danger for most of us is not that our aim is too high and we miss it, but that it is too low and we reach it." - Michelangelo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #43 November 11, 2009 For whatever it's worth: Here's a post that was just put up by a student who had a hard landing with a canopy with a broken line. I'm not saying his situation is identical to yours - you're not a student, for example. Nor am I not advocating cutting away any canopy with one broken line. But it's noteworthy that he didn't realize how fast his descent rate was until he was at about 100 feet. As I said, take it for what it's worth. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3725347;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
midlifecrisis 0 #44 November 12, 2009 QuoteFor whatever it's worth: Here's a post that was just put up by a student who had a hard landing with a canopy with a broken line. I'm not saying his situation is identical to yours - you're not a student, for example. Nor am I not advocating cutting away any canopy with one broken line. But it's noteworthy that he didn't realize how fast his descent rate was until he was at about 100 feet. As I said, take it for what it's worth. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3725347;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread Thank you for that link. I also put a link on his so he can read what others have commented on here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gearless_chris 1 #45 November 12, 2009 You're okay, so yes you did the right thing. I had a lineover burn a hole through my bottom skin once, I did not land it. The hole was bigger than my head and it felt funny when I flared. I had also read a incident on here the week before about a guy in Ohio that died when his 170 Nitron loaded 1.4 (same canopy and W/L as me) from a low turn. They found a torn vertical rib that probably made the canopy fly different than he was expecting, and it wouldn't have been visible. If it would've felt okay when I did the control check, and my Neptune showed a normal descent rate, I would've landed it."If it wasn't easy stupid people couldn't do it", Duane. My momma said I could be anything I wanted when I grew up, so I became an a$$hole. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
topdocker 0 #46 November 12, 2009 I've got to add this story, just so you can see how easy it is to get distracted: Several years ago, on a CRW jump I exited last on a four way sequential jump at 8K. As I turned and faced the formation I could see the base canopy had a huge hole in it where the retract system had torn out the top of the center cell. (Our canopies were getting well-used and new ones were on the way.) I flew along side the base canopy and told him he should cut-away when he was ready, the canopy was flying like crap. He chops, gets a great reserve ride, I go chase the freebag someone else is chasing the main. After snagging the freebag and stowing it between my legs, I know I'm landing out and start looking for a place to land. I look around to see where the rest of the team is heading and while I'm looking up, I see my canopy has pretty much the same damage in it that my teammate had! Now, I'm low, off, have a freebag between my legs, and no one knows that I'm contemplating cutting away. I decide to land it and realize as I am flaring that I should have flared just a tad higher!!! Apparently, the center cell provides lift or something. I got a nice skid mark on my jumpsuit and really impressed the people who saw me slide through their horse field. Lesson learned: if you think someone else is screwed, take the time to make sure you aren't also! topJump more, post less! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #47 November 12, 2009 QuoteAfter snagging the freebag Ack. You got brasser balls than I do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildcard451 0 #48 November 12, 2009 QuoteQuoteAfter snagging the freebag Ack. You got brasser balls than I do. For the record, anyone new/inexperienced out there, this is NOT a good idea, nor to try it with a main canopy. People much better than you have died trying it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
topdocker 0 #49 November 12, 2009 Quote Quote Quote After snagging the freebag Ack. You got brasser balls than I do. For the record, anyone new/inexperienced out there, this is NOT a good idea, nor to try it with a main canopy. People much better than you have died trying it. Um, I only mentioned it in the story because it compounded my decision, but you get pretty good at it with experience. But for the record, it should never be done by those not experienced and only at an altitude you can comfortably cut-away if it causes a problem. I only catch with a hand, not teeth, lines or any other gear! Not noticing big hole in canopy- no problem to commentatorsCatching freebag- problem to commentatorstopJump more, post less! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #50 November 13, 2009 Quote Not noticing big hole in canopy- no problem to commentators Catching freebag- problem to commentators So, uh... WTF's with your not noticing the hole in your canopy? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
