When someone is a complete "dick" about advice.

[labrys 0]

A thread I was watching with some interest has been pruned because the word "retarded" was used....

Seriously.... for every one touchy-feely person who's likely to post here and complain that no one learns from being called out and called an idiot for making a mistake.... there's another personality type who doesn't post whore who reads that sort of comment and takes inventory.

Thanks Dave.

Owned by Remi #?

[Beachbum 0]

I think I saw most of it before it was pruned. Me, I think I'm somewhere beyond the "touchy feely" and closer to "skin like leather" ... LOL ... because I tend to be pretty direct too (when in person). But, I can certainly see where an approach a bit more civil than a "bat upside the head" technique could be a more effective way to offer constructive criticism to a lot of people. That would seem to me to be especially true when online and dealing with someone you likely have no idea about the personality of, and/or how they will react to someone being overly direct with them. I would think most people who take time to offer us the benefit of their experience would want their words to be heard, not ignored or discounted because of the way their advice was offered?

As long as you are happy with yourself ... who cares what the rest of the world thinks?

[labrys 0]

And back to my point in posting the question....

There are a percentage of people who balk and complain when they are called out and those people can learn and thrive with other, more sensitive feedback.

There are other people who actually respond to being called out.

I don't think it's wise to censor a guy who takes the brutal approach any more than it's wise to focus on the guy who blows sunshine up everyone's ass.

Edit for the hell of it:

If you have the brain cells to generate enough friction to argue, you probably don't have a problem.

Owned by Remi #?

[format 0]

You two are having too many jumps to being counted as for what you think.
It's a fucking shame that Internet allow guys like you to "express" your 'opignion'.

What goes around, comes later.

[riggerpaul 1]

Skydiving has had a long tradition of brutal frankness to the point of political incorrectness.

It may come from the roots of the sport being in the military, where the drill instructors have legendary insensitivity.

Of course, they are tasked with toughening up a group of people for the rigors of combat. So some people think this approach is not appropriate for the teaching of today's skydivers.

This thread is a direct result of another thread that was dealing with a situation where a jumper continued to use gear when it had a known problem with riser covers coming open.

Continuing to use gear with such a known problem creates a grave (as in where dead people are put) hazard for not just the people who are jumping the gear, but for the people who are jumping around the gear as well.

Please consider that last sentence. Is it worded to your liking? I think probably, yes. Does it have the impact that should accorded such a serious breach of safety protocols? I think not.

Those of us who will occasionally use strong language have seen too many examples where the true seriousness of the problem has been ignored until it is too late.

This person with the blown riser covers could well have been a fatality. Would you feel better if the postings here were more gentle, but a death was the result instead of just a harrowing nightmare experience? I hope not.

This is an unforgiving sport. If one wishes to participate in such an unforgiving sport, one does well to look past the language to find the message that is being conveyed. It isn't personal. If it makes you feel better about it, try telling yourself that it is the shortcoming of the person who posted the brutal language, and that you are better than they are for your more refined ways. Then you can pity the poster, while you still search for the message.

Ignoring known gear problems is really really really really really really bad thing.

You think that some people are too brutal in their language. You think it is rude to be so brutal when you don't really have any knowledge of the recipient's demeanor and sensitivities.

Now, flip the coin over.

There are also people who will not respond unless the baseball bat techniques are used.

If you use the gentle language with them, it goes nowhere at all.

If that thick-skinned person dies because of failing to hear a message delivered too gently, it is a failure more grave than hurting the feelings of a more gentile individual.

So, we are faced with a choice. Do we use gentle language and worry that it rolls off the recipient's back, possibly being ignored resulting in a fatality? Or do we use the baseball bat, possibly bruising some feelings, but more likely to get the message through to the thick-skinned individual?

Failing to get the message across can result in a fatality, and some of us are willing to do whatever it takes to avoid that outcome.

[Beachbum 0]

I agree with Labrys about the censorship. If someone wants to be "a complete dick" about it, that is their choice. They make that choice knowing that (if they've read on here much, at least) if they take it too far, the greenies may well do some editing or pruning which could result in their input disappearing. For those who utilize that method, what good does their advice do if the manner in which it was offered up causes it to be removed?

As for you Format ... neither myself nor Labrys expressed anything about the situation in question in this thread, but even if we did, we are entitled to have an opinion regardless of jump #'s. If someone wishes to discount our ideas based solely on that, that's their problem. I prefer to think that most people have the sense to judge an idea on it's merit, not on who it came from and what their jump #'s are. Yes, more experience makes it more likely that anything offered is sound, but lack of #'s doesn't automatically mean that person is an idiot and incapable of a worthwhile idea. Personally, yes, I agree with the people in that thread who felt it extremely unwise to jump gear with a known, repeating problem like that.

RiggerPaul ... I understand and to some extent agree with what you are pointing out also, but feel like there must be a middle ground somewhere in there that is a little shy of the baseball bat, but still strong enough to get that type of person's attention? Especially if going all out sometimes results in posts being removed/edited, such that the advice is no longer available to BE read and heeded or ignored. Oh, also ... I didn't say I think it rude, just indicated that I think it could (and I'm pretty sure it does in some cases) effect how the intended recipients view the advice offered. Perhaps if a person doesn't seem to "get it" about a given topic, a PM worded however strongly might seem necessary would then be in order? I don't know ... no perfect answer for sure, because if you do have to go to pm's ... others do not get the benefit of their content. ... who knows??

Dang!! See what happens when it's lousy weather on saturday ... too much time for the keyboard ... LOL!! Sure hope this cloudy mess moves on soon!

As long as you are happy with yourself ... who cares what the rest of the world thinks?

[aresye 0]

I personally have no hurt feelings about the times I've been chewed out after landing, for dumb mistakes on my part. At the time, I may have been thinking, "Wow, this guy is a total dick!" but looking back on it, the mistakes they've made clear to me I've never done again.

However, on the other side, a passive, or friendly adviser is likely to get his point across on a few, but not the ego-intensive types. It's just like a kid growing up. I'm glad for the times my parents have been very stern, because unlike the times they were passive with me, I actually listened.

It also depends on the situation. If a newer jumper is attempting to swoop, and ends up almost colliding with somebody, or the ground, then that person needs a very stern, military-style chewing out. On the opposite side of the spectrum, if somebody is constantly landing out, and/or botching their own pattern, then they probably just need some friendly advice to help them with their problem.

Skydiving: You either learn from other's mistakes, or they'll learn from yours.

[riggerpaul 1]

Quote

RiggerPaul ... I understand and to some extent agree with what you are pointing out also, but feel like there must be a middle ground somewhere in there that is a little shy of the baseball bat, but still strong enough to get that type of person's attention? Especially if going all out sometimes results in posts being removed/edited, such that the advice is no longer available to BE read and heeded or ignored. Oh, also ... I didn't say I think it rude, just indicated that I think it could (and I'm pretty sure it does in some cases) effect how the intended recipients view the advice offered. Perhaps if a person doesn't seem to "get it" about a given topic, a PM worded however strongly might seem necessary would then be in order? I don't know ... no perfect answer for sure, because if you do have to go to pm's ... others do not get the benefit of their content. ... who knows??

Dang!! See what happens when it's lousy weather on saturday ... too much time for the keyboard ... LOL!! Sure hope this cloudy mess moves on soon!

So, I'll repeat - look for the message.

This is a sport with people who cover the whole range of just about every aspect of the human condition. Some are educated, some are not. Some are polite, while some tend towards rude. There are cops and criminals and lawyers and judges. There are college professors and high school dropouts.

All of them who contribute are doing so out of care and concern for fellow jumpers. Oftentimes they are literally trying to save someone's life.

Some can express themselves, even forcefully, better than others.

But just because someone is not able to express himself to the high standards of others does not diminish the value of the message.

Lets the words roll off you. Retain the message.

[dgw 8]

Excellent. I could not agree more.

[hallux 0]

so when you say someone is being a dick exactly what do you mean???? would it be like if I were to say shut the fuck up with your internet whining because you sound like a 12yr old girl??? Or do you mean something like "you guys are a bunch of non jumping dropzone.com pussies that seek out the internet for a place to voice your worhtless half ass opinions because nobody in the real world wants to hear your annoying fucking voice. Sadly this is the only place you feel like you can try to be important, either because you are a total social reject with no friends or because you hide in your moms basement like a filthy troll covered in your own feces and urine because you are scared of the daylight for fear that your ugly ass face will be exposed to some kind of glimmer of social interaction"

I mean all this is hypothetical of course....I'm not really saying that. im just giving examples to try to understand what the parameters of "being a dick" is

have a nice fucking day

[airdvr 197]

Quote

have a nice fucking day

Don't hold back...tell us how you really feel.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[labrys 0]

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I agree with Labrys about the censorship. If someone wants to be "a complete dick" about it, that is their choice. They make that choice knowing that (if they've read on here much, at least) if they take it too far, the greenies may well do some editing or pruning which could result in their input disappearing. For those who utilize that method, what good does their advice do if the manner in which it was offered up causes it to be removed?

I don't think we're on the same page here. I totally disagree with having valid advise removed because it was delivered rudely. That's why I posted in the first place. I agree that there are actually a group of people who don't listen unless someone gets in their face and spits a little.

Owned by Remi #?

[Beachbum 0]

No ... I think we are. I don't like censorship either, but because I run a fishing forum, I do understand the need for the greenies, and that those who volunteer to DO that need to have the leeway to do what they think is right. One point I tried to make (apparently not very clearly!) about it is exactly what I think you are indicating ... that it can result in loss of valuable input.

As long as you are happy with yourself ... who cares what the rest of the world thinks?

[format 0]

Beachbum, sorry for incomprenhensive sarcasm.

There's NO damage out of smartAsses (anyjumper can filter goodFROMstupid info) but
there's a LOT of BAD side_effects out of people who are trying (successfully so far) to 'control' their back pet yard.

Look at the bright side: I'd probably loose all my teeth trying to prove my point in person(s).. and nose too

What goes around, comes later.

[format 0]

me talking like this? Oh yes, this is a HUGE surprise.
-just one of these side effects-

What goes around, comes later.

[mjosparky 3]

Main Entry: ar·ro·gance

Pronunciation: \ˈer-ə-gən(t)s, ˈa-rə-\
Function: noun
Date: 14th century
: an attitude of superiority manifested in an overbearing manner or in presumptuous claims or assumptions

---

Main Entry: ass·hole

Pronunciation: \ˈas-ˌ(h)ōl\
Function: noun
Date: 14th century
1 usually vulgar : anus
2 a usually vulgar : a stupid, incompetent, or detestable person b usually vulgar : the worst place —used in phrases like asshole of the world

---

Ain't life a bitch.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[format 0]

Yup, he's just the of those

What goes around, comes later.

[labrys 0]

What I'm saying is that I don't think there's anything wrong with good advice.

Owned by Remi #?

[rwieder 0]

I'm in!

-Richard-
"You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall"

[labrys 0]

That is so well articulated. I wish I could do that.

Owned by Remi #?

[airtwardo 6]

Quote

so when you say someone is being a dick exactly what do you mean???? would it be like if I were to say shut the fuck up with your internet whining because you sound like a 12yr old girl??? Or do you mean something like "you guys are a bunch of non jumping dropzone.com pussies that seek out the internet for a place to voice your worhtless half ass opinions because nobody in the real world wants to hear your annoying fucking voice. Sadly this is the only place you feel like you can try to be important, either because you are a total social reject with no friends or because you hide in your moms basement like a filthy troll covered in your own feces and urine because you are scared of the daylight for fear that your ugly ass face will be exposed to some kind of glimmer of social interaction"

You stalking me??

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[wmw999 2,122]

To me it all depends on who you want to lose.

Use the baseball bat technique up front, and you lose the ones who get their backs up and actively fight it, and the ones who walk away because they want to know the why (baseball bat advice is very rarely delivered with a why).

Use the polite technique, and the ones who need baseball bats will simply ignore you, and the ones who fight you will ignore you. But at least the ones who need a why will probably ask.

I'm generally in favor of direct but polite, and preferably before the advice is needed. That doesn't work with everyone. I'm not good at baseball bat, and generally I roll my eyes when someone is using one. Both teachers and students should have access to more than one way to communicate.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[popsjumper 2]

The "dick" is the one who ignores safety advice because you didn't put in a tone that suits him.


"Mommy. Mommy! That man talked mean to me!"
"That's OK, Bobby. Just don't listen to him."
"OK, Mommy. I'll never listen to anyone who speaks mean to me."

To him, one should say, "Grow the fuck up you retarded asshole."

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[format 0]

"Daddy, daddy, these mean men talked down to me!
They made me upsize
We, me and my unbreaked limbs hate them!"

As the "dick" I guess I grew a bit..
Tha's nice

What goes around, comes later.

[pontiacgtp00 0]

Depends on the situation. If it is absolute need to know or else you die information, and previous tactics have failed...being a dick might be the best solution.

Some guy being a complete dick because someone has 12% closing loop wear instead of 10% should be kicked in the mouth. There is one guy in particular I should have done this to last july.