base698 1 #26 July 25, 2006 QuoteIf you tried hard, you might be able to convince me it would be harder to pull a wet toggle tongue from a wet brake-set loop or eye. I don't see how slightly fatter lines Hydrogen bonds between water molecules are some of the strongest interactions possible. The relative strength of the wet lines versus the dry lines is probably around 100 to 1. So they are 100 times more attracted to each other. This is not to say it will require 100 times more force to pull them apart, but that the attractive forces will require 100 times more force to overcome them. This may or may not be negligible, but my gut instinct is that this almost certainly could have an effect on a deployment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wwarped 0 #27 July 25, 2006 Quote Hydrogen bonds between water molecules are some of the strongest interactions possible. The relative strength of the wet lines versus the dry lines is probably around 100 to 1. So they are 100 times more attracted to each other. This almost certainly could have an effect on a deployment. I wouldn't worry about lines clinging together, I'd worry about the fabric. wet fabric likes to stick to wet fabric. skydiving reserves must open in all sorts of unusual conditions. delay caused by wet fabric might prove unhealthy (aad activation?). still, I've seen BASE rigs packed in a rain shower. compressing the fabric looked like squeezing a sponge. evidently, it worked fine. (remember, the elevation of the bridge can be higher than aad activation altitude... and BASE jumpers are NOT at terminal.) DON'T PANIC The lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss. sloppy habits -> sloppy jumps -> injury or worse Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
base698 1 #28 July 25, 2006 The fabric has more surface area so attractive forces between fabric will likely be much greater. However, there may be something to the line issue as well. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #29 July 25, 2006 Quoterelative strength of the wet lines versus the dry lines is probably around 100 to 1. You don't really believe this do you?My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brits17 0 #30 July 25, 2006 QuoteI wouldn't worry about lines clinging together, I'd worry about the fabric. wet fabric likes to stick to wet fabric. skydiving reserves must open in all sorts of unusual conditions. delay caused by wet fabric might prove unhealthy (aad activation?). still, I've seen BASE rigs packed in a rain shower. compressing the fabric looked like squeezing a sponge. evidently, it worked fine. (remember, the elevation of the bridge can be higher than aad activation altitude... and BASE jumpers are NOT at terminal.) Interestingly enough, I was scared to jump a wet canopy at Bridge Day... but everyone said it'd be fine, just pack it. In fact, it may open faster because its wet making it 'slicker.' I partially agree with that theory in regards to the canopy, but I think the lines are what worry me now. Tension knots, uneven sequence of line deployment... makes sense. I was told by experienced swoopers to be careful stowing my lines on my main after it was wet because they're suseptible to tension knots being so terribly thin (HMA lines). This makes more sense to me. _______________________ aerialkinetics.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #31 July 25, 2006 QuoteInterestingly enough, I was scared to jump a wet canopy at Bridge Day... but everyone said it'd be fine, just pack it. In fact, it may open faster because its wet making it 'slicker.' My experience has been that a wet canopy will fly more like a ZP canopy--better glide, quicker response, stronger flare. I theorize that this is because the wet F-111 material is less permeable to the air, and is hence "more ZP-like" than dry F-111. In terms of openings, I'm not sure what effect this would have, but I'd suspect that it would get a vented canopy to a flyable state marginally faster, and an unvented canopy to an expanded (slowing you down but not yet flying) state marginally faster. That's theory, though, and is not based on any real world observation. My real world observations of wet canopy openings has been that it really makes very little difference. On the line/tension knot/line-fabric sticking issues, I think I might be a little more concerned. I'd guess these would be more of an issue with a slider up deployment (like the reserve deployments being discussed here) than a slider down deployment (which is violent enough that it's likely to blow things open regardless). I've jumped canopies in a variety of wet states, ranging from slightly damp (I've done this more times than I can count) up to "so wet they looked like a sponge squeezing out water when you closed the container" (I've done this perhaps 10 times). I've experienced no issues on any of those deployments.-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
base698 1 #32 July 25, 2006 Quotequire 100 times more force to pull them apart, but that the attractive forces will require 100 times more force to overcome them. T In reference to above the force by friction is probably magnitudes greater and I allowed the hydrogen bonding may be negligible. However just considering the attractive forces they are 100 times greater. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
okalb 79 #33 July 26, 2006 We had a case at z-hills a number of years ago where someone had splashed in the pond a few times getting their rig pretty soaked. He did not open the reserve and get it repacked. After about a year, he brought the rig into the loft for a repack and when it was opened the reserve came out like a brick. All the fabric was hard and stuck together. Several very experienced riggers looked at it and nobody was sure if it would have eventually opened or not. Granted, that was a case of leaving a repeatedly soaked rig packed in the container for over a year, but just something to keep in mind.Time flies like an arrow....fruit flies like a banana Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
avenfoto 0 #34 July 26, 2006 my experience was actually the opposite, however i only have two wet canopy jumps, and they both seemed like they sniveled a bit more, for whatever reason both were on a pd254,borrowed from maddog in 04 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #35 July 26, 2006 Quoteboth were on a pd254, Those are known to be poor pressurizing canopies in a BASE environment. ========== I've jumped soaked BASE canopies slider up. They opened rather quickly. Large 600 lb black Dacron lines against #8 Brass Grommets are slippery when wet. In my opinion BASE canopies and Reserve canopies can not be compared in the scenario they're being compared in. Slider off configuration, there's no comparison at all. Most BASE canopies have 600lb braided Dacron lines. Reserves have either coated or noncoated 725 spectra/microline. BASE canopies have a bridle attachment point that stretches the canopy out before the lines pay out from a tail pocket. Reserves are stuffed in a free bag. The canopy is lifted all the way to line extension before the bag comes off the canopy and flies away. The canopy is not influenced until the bag comes off.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
avenfoto 0 #36 July 26, 2006 yeah i guess i didnt really think of that, all valid points Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Derekbox 0 #37 July 27, 2006 Has anyone thought to maybe do some real tests with a 3 canopy rig, and soaked lines.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #38 July 27, 2006 QuoteHas anyone thought to maybe do some real tests with a 3 canopy rig, and soaked lines.... It has been done, both drop tests and live jumps. The Navy has the data and I would doubt they would release it.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
78RATS 0 #39 July 27, 2006 Quote I wouldn't worry about lines clinging together, I'd worry about the fabric. wet fabric likes to stick to wet fabric IF the reserve was soaked, wouldn't that affect the weight of the fabric (i.e. heavier) and make the deployment sequence unusual? If the heavier fabric inhibited the deployment sequence, could that be where the tension knots begin to form? I have no idea, just wondering. Rat for Life - Fly till I die When them stupid ass bitches ask why Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Derekbox 0 #40 July 27, 2006 Wet Lines, Wet reserves, wet lines and reserve... test it all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zoter 0 #41 July 27, 2006 QuoteIt has been done, both drop tests and live jumps. The Navy has the data and I would doubt they would release it. I'd bet they were on canopies alot different to the class associated with this post. Would be nice if a manufacturer or 'soft drink' sponser for example would put some cash where its needed and sponser a project that looked into this issue , relevant to the market where this potential problem may exist..... That would show 'real' manufacturer/sponser 'buy in' to me , alot more than some glossy adverts in Parachutist. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlindBrick 0 #42 July 27, 2006 I jumped an MT-1 reserve at Bridge day last year. On my first jump, the canopy opened great. Took the water on landing, and then repacked the rig immediately. There was water literally running out of my rig as I threw it on my shoulder to catch the bus. My second jump was a relatively short delay but the most absolutely brutal opening I ever experienced. The only thing I can compare it to was the time right after I got my rigging ticket and was fucking around with sliders and took a Raven III bikni slider to 140 mph on a 288 sf 9 cell main. The Bridge Day opening was slightly worse. -Blind"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zoter 0 #43 July 27, 2006 Quotetook a Raven III bikni slider to 140 mph on a 288 sf 9 cell main Why would you do that having a riggers knowledge? I dont know you but have read some of your posts that indicate you are a 'larger' guy Just curious... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,166 #44 July 27, 2006 Being a rigger makes you curious about gear. I did some experimenting, too. You use your own gear for obvious reasons. I'm sure he jumped that as a main. It would make the opening crisp (to say the least), but after opening, it wouldn't have anything to do with how well the canopy flew. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #45 July 28, 2006 QuoteI'd bet they were on canopies alot different to the class associated with this post. And you would lose your bet. You should never gamble without some knowledge of the game.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #46 July 28, 2006 QuoteQuotetook a Raven III bikni slider to 140 mph on a 288 sf 9 cell main Why would you do that having a riggers knowledge? I dont know you but have read some of your posts that indicate you are a 'larger' guy Just curious... Where do you think "riggers knowledge" comes from? There is a lot going on that you don't know about until you get the free ride at the end.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RMURRAY 1 #47 July 28, 2006 QuoteQuote I wouldn't worry about lines clinging together, I'd worry about the fabric. wet fabric likes to stick to wet fabric IF the reserve was soaked, wouldn't that affect the weight of the fabric (i.e. heavier) and make the deployment sequence unusual? If the heavier fabric inhibited the deployment sequence, could that be where the tension knots begin to form? I have no idea, just wondering. I think you are right on. increase mass of the lines and canopy may make it easier to strip the bag off. Then all bets are off... rm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zoter 0 #48 July 28, 2006 QuoteAnd you would lose your bet. You should never gamble without some knowledge of the game. Are you saying that the navy was using high performance, highly loaded 'swooping' canopies for this test ? why would they have any interest in doing that? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,672 #49 July 28, 2006 QuoteQuoteIf you tried hard, you might be able to convince me it would be harder to pull a wet toggle tongue from a wet brake-set loop or eye. I don't see how slightly fatter lines Hydrogen bonds between water molecules are some of the strongest interactions possible. The relative strength of the wet lines versus the dry lines is probably around 100 to 1. So they are 100 times more attracted to each other. This is not to say it will require 100 times more force to pull them apart, but that the attractive forces will require 100 times more force to overcome them. This may or may not be negligible, but my gut instinct is that this almost certainly could have an effect on a deployment. Hydrogen bonds are the strongest of the WEAK or secondary bonds. They are nothing like as strong as primary bonds (ionic or covalent bonds). Your analysis is based on a totally incorrect assumption.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #50 July 28, 2006 QuoteQuoteAnd you would lose your bet. You should never gamble without some knowledge of the game. Are you saying that the navy was using high performance, highly loaded 'swooping' canopies for this test ? why would they have any interest in doing that? I am not saying anyting, you are.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
