diablopilot 2 #26 March 2, 2010 QuoteSo let's get back on task, JP: please explain why USPA can't do what sporting associations related to scuba, car racing, skiing, snowboarding, skateboarding, motocross and numerous other risk sports do and just keep its pie hole shut about age? Simply because they already have taken a stance, and a retraction at this point could be construed as endorsement.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
robinheid 0 #27 March 2, 2010 Quote Quote So let's get back on task, JP: please explain why USPA can't do what sporting associations related to scuba, car racing, skiing, snowboarding, skateboarding, motocross and numerous other risk sports do and just keep its pie hole shut about age? Simply because they already have taken a stance, and a retraction at this point could be construed as endorsement. Good thing you weren't around to make that argument when USPA "retracted" its stance on not jumping squares with less than 100 jumps after Roger Nelson rubbed the BOD's noses in how stupid that was by showing how well things went when first-jump students used squares. And please tell me who exactly would see as an endorsement a long-overdue move by USPA to... simply conform with the rest of the action sport/risk activity world - or even the multiple countries around the world whose parachuting associations do not have an age limit? Try again. SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.) "The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpwally 0 #28 March 4, 2010 +1,,,yeah , i forgot all about Rogers event,,,nicesmile, be nice, enjoy life FB # - 1083 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydived19006 4 #29 March 4, 2010 QuoteQuoteSo let's get back on task, JP: please explain why USPA can't do what sporting associations related to scuba, car racing, skiing, snowboarding, skateboarding, motocross and numerous other risk sports do and just keep its pie hole shut about age? Simply because they already have taken a stance, and a retraction at this point could be construed as endorsement. So, as it stands with the USPA "endorsing" 16 year olds, the USPA is on the "list to sue" anytime someone of less than legal majority gets hurt. As I see it, you can't be half pregnant, it needs to either be Legal Age of Majority, or be mute and get out of the argument all together. My Participation Agreement has a list of names including my wife and one Tandem instructor. One of the active IAD instructors asked me once about being included on that list of names. My response was "You're covered in the general language as an Instructor. That list of names come law suit time will serve as a "who to sue list", are you sure you want to have your name on that list?" He decided it was better left as is. Sometimes it's best to simply get out of the argument. Were USPA to remove any language related to minimum age, my DZs policy would not change. That said, my kids might skydive at an age less than 18/16. MartinExperience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ozzy13 0 #30 March 4, 2010 Question. How come a sport like NASCAR does not have a problem like USPA? Its dangerous and their are kids 8-10 racing on there circuits all over this country. Just wondering Never give the gates up and always trust your rears! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #31 March 4, 2010 Because the kids are not racing for NASCAR any more then they are playing for the Yankees since they are on a Tee ball team The individual facilities that host these events have the liability and do not have a national oversight association that issues ratings for them. Also you tend to see more age/size limitation on the carts they are in. The typical 8 year old is in a go cart that is limited to something like 10-20cc and will do 15-30 mph max. This lets them not get into conditions that are overly dangerous and they are not in the control by another driver. If there was a way to create more age approriate conditions like limiting the freefall to 60 mph and the canopy was unable to get into a situation where they could make a low turn or hurt themselves then it could happen. Liability is the main reason, USPA is in the list and now they can't get removed. Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ozzy13 0 #32 March 4, 2010 Quote Because the kids are not racing for NASCAR any more then they are playing for the Yankees since they are on a Tee ball team The individual facilities that host these events have the liability So why cant uspa do that and do not have a national oversight association that issues ratings for them. But as they get to higher levels of racing they do. Also you tend to see more age/size limitation on the carts they are in. The typical 8 year old is in a go cart that is limited to something like 10-20cc and will do 15-30 mph max. This lets them not get into conditions that are overly dangerous and they are not in the control by another driver. If there was a way to create more age approriate conditions like limiting the freefall to 60 mph and the canopy was unable to get into a situation where they could make a low turn or hurt themselves then it could happen. Im not saying 8 year olds should skydive. I was wondering how other organizations deal with this Liability is the main reason, USPA is in the list and now they can't get removed. I know they just changed the rules to, you have to be 18 to drive on the top circuit. But there are kids under 18 going faster then 30 in race cars across this country and im guessing their parents had to sign waivers????Why does that work and are waivers don't? Just so you know I think it should be 18 to jump.Never give the gates up and always trust your rears! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydived19006 4 #33 March 4, 2010 Quote Liability is the main reason, USPA is in the list and now they can't get removed. I know they just changed the rules to, you have to be 18 to drive on the top circuit. But there are kids under 18 going faster then 30 in race cars across this country and im guessing their parents had to sign waivers????Why does that work and are waivers don't? Just so you know I think it should be 18 to jump. One argument seems to be that there's no way to ease into skydiving. Kids are allowed to drown while scuba diving, but people think that all kids swim and accidents can happen. As with racing, the kids may have started out on a 10 mph electric scooter, and worked their way up to 60 plus in a go cart. Everybody drives. Skydiving on the other hand for most who'd end up on a jury is simply stupid, and only for someone with a death wish. With that perspective, you're obviously endangering a child, etc. Booth also had a good point regarding underage girls and tandem skydiving. Tandem skydiving obviously requires close proximity. One 14 year old girl making the accusation "That guy was feeling my boobies." and you'll find yourself in a world of shit regardless what may or may not have happened. There obviously have been, are a handful of TIs out there who have done such things, they're required to molest adults as it now stands. MartinExperience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickDG 23 #34 March 4, 2010 >>USPA BOD Age WaiversYes, they should pass a regulation you can't be too old, nor too young, and in either case be brain dead - and still serve on the USPA BOD! NickD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ozzy13 0 #35 March 4, 2010 Quote Quote Liability is the main reason, USPA is in the list and now they can't get removed. I know they just changed the rules to, you have to be 18 to drive on the top circuit. But there are kids under 18 going faster then 30 in race cars across this country and im guessing their parents had to sign waivers????Why does that work and are waivers don't? Just so you know I think it should be 18 to jump. One argument seems to be that there's no way to ease into skydiving. Kids are allowed to drown while scuba diving, but people think that all kids swim and accidents can happen. As with racing, the kids may have started out on a 10 mph electric scooter, and worked their way up to 60 plus in a go cart. Everybody drives. Skydiving on the other hand for most who'd end up on a jury is simply stupid, and only for someone with a death wish. With that perspective, you're obviously endangering a child, etc. Martin Ok you are right that everyone/most drive cars. What about dirt bikes? Parents sign waivers for that. I just dont know how a parent can sign their kids rights away. Except if that said parent has an idea of the risks fully. In case of a DZO letting their own kid skydive before 18. They know the risk. Im not really sure if knowing the risk makes a difference. Now im confused lol. This question is not directed at you per say Martin. I'm just playing devil's advocate.Never give the gates up and always trust your rears! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydived19006 4 #36 March 4, 2010 Quote Ok you are right that everyone/most drive cars. What about dirt bikes? Parents sign waivers for that. I just dont know how a parent can sign their kids rights away. Except if that said parent has an idea of the risks fully. In case of a DZO letting their own kid skydive before 18. They know the risk. Im not really sure if knowing the risk makes a difference. Now im confused lol. This question is not directed at you per say Martin. I'm just playing devil's advocate. I wonder (but not enough to research) if when a kid gets hurt in a dirt bike accident, or adult for that matter if they go after the manufacturer.Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjumpenfool 2 #37 March 4, 2010 A parent can sign a waiver for their minor!! It just won't hold up in court. And, It'll be that same parent driving the lawsuit. DZO's... Go ahead and let the kids jump. It's your ass on the line. USPA..... Jump age should be Legal Age of Consent!! as always, IMHO Birdshit & Fools Productions "Son, only two things fall from the sky." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ozzy13 0 #38 March 4, 2010 QuoteA parent can sign a waiver for their minor!! It just won't hold up in court. And, It'll be that same parent driving the lawsuit. If thats the case then why is their even a discussion. Why would any business owner subject themselves to that risk.Never give the gates up and always trust your rears! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
topdocker 0 #39 March 4, 2010 QuoteQuoteA parent can sign a waiver for their minor!! It just won't hold up in court. And, It'll be that same parent driving the lawsuit. If thats the case then why is there even a discussion. Why would any business owner subject themselves to that risk. Why should they expose themselves to any risk? Don't let anyone jump, or even get on your property? topJump more, post less! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ozzy13 0 #40 March 4, 2010 Quote Quote Quote A parent can sign a waiver for their minor!! It just won't hold up in court. And, It'll be that same parent driving the lawsuit. If thats the case then why is there even a discussion. Why would any business owner subject themselves to that risk. Why should they expose themselves to any risk? Don't let anyone jump, or even get on your property? top Well from reading this thread the risk is less with people over 18Never give the gates up and always trust your rears! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #41 March 5, 2010 QuoteIf thats the case then why is there even a discussion. Why would any business owner subject themselves to that risk. They play the odds. If you do 15,000 tandems in a year and injure 1-2 people over 18 thats not bad. If you only end up only doing 200 a year under 18 tandems what are the odds that that person injured will be under 18? Odds are pretty long that its going to be the underage person. Thats $40,000 in income that you are gambling will not sue.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjumpenfool 2 #42 March 5, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteA parent can sign a waiver for their minor!! It just won't hold up in court. And, It'll be that same parent driving the lawsuit. If thats the case then why is there even a discussion. Why would any business owner subject themselves to that risk. Why should they expose themselves to any risk? Don't let anyone jump, or even get on your property? top Top, you may be more correct than you know... I truely believe that lawsuits will someday be the death of this sport. Allowing minors to jump will just move up the timetable.Birdshit & Fools Productions "Son, only two things fall from the sky." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,048 #43 March 5, 2010 Hi top, QuoteWhy should they expose themselves to any risk? Don't let anyone jump, or even get on your property? A little off topic: About 20 yrs ago I met with one of the attorneys from Stoel, Rives ( considered to be the best law firm in the state of Oregon; and who had defended skydivers in the past. I know as they defended me once ) to see just what I might be able to do to keep from losing my house and everything else. For some strange reason, my wife & kids were against living in a tent for the next 20 + yrs. At that time I was actively building sport rigs & pilot emergency rigs. My wife & I spent about three hours with him and he continued to recommend that I get a night job as a part-time manager in a local McDonalds. In his mind anyone involved in the mfr of parachute equipment was simply out of their mind as the potential for a lawsuit was enormous. Of course, I didn't want to hear anything about some job at a fast-food joint; just tell me how to protect myself. At the end of the meeting he simply had no recommendations other than to get the H--- out of the business. Just a thought for the discussion . . . JerryBaumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
topdocker 0 #44 March 5, 2010 Does AOPA get sued if a plane crashes? Does PADI or NAUI get sued when a diver drowns? How are "we" different? (Besides the obvious smart-ass comments!!!) topJump more, post less! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #45 March 5, 2010 Quote Question. How come a sport like NASCAR does not have a problem like USPA? Its dangerous and their are kids 8-10 racing on there circuits all over this country. Just wondering Because they are professionals. And they all drive in the same direction. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ozzy13 0 #46 March 5, 2010 Well I know of a case where a lady leased a car using Chase. She crashes the car and sewed chase and won. Most leasing companies stopped leasing cars after that. She lost her appeal and banks started leasing again. Where does it all stop? When the lawyers stop thinking they can make a buck.....Never give the gates up and always trust your rears! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peek 20 #47 March 5, 2010 QuoteDoes AOPA get sued if a plane crashes? Does PADI or NAUI get sued when a diver drowns? How are "we" different? AOPA is different in that it is only a representative body, and does not issue licenses and ratings. PADI or NAUI? Good question. Scuba divers, have any of you been involved in the "politics" of this sport enough to give us any background on those organizations and any past legal actions or issues? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DiverMike 5 #48 March 5, 2010 I have a PADI Master Scuba Diver Trainer Instructor Rating. PADI has a legal team that is quite active defending/preventing lawsuits. Every instructor who teaches in the United States is required to get liability insurance through Vicencia and Buckley or you are not allowed to teach a single students. The yearly liability insurance is $588.00. Multiple that by the teaching SCUBA instructors and you see that PADI has really deep pockets and rarely (if ever) loses a lawsuit. This protection helps other agencies (NAUI) because lawyers aren't sniffing around scuba diving fatalaties. PADI has done a tremendous job marketing itself. Because of this, it carries a big stick and can demand that it instructors pay big bucks to be associated with it. USPA - not so much yet. For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peek 20 #49 March 5, 2010 Thank you for the explanation. That explains a lot. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #50 March 5, 2010 AOPA doesn't certify airmen or provide instruction. PADI and NAUI have dealt with and settled legal actions. Public perception is a mutha...---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
