Pilot Vs Safire

[johnski 0]

G Day guys;

I am on the prowl for some new gear and I have every thing sorted out except which new canopy to get, the two I am tossing up between are the icarus safire2 in 135+- sqf and a pilot 135 I can get the pilot for some $200 aussie less than the safire but money is not realy an issue.
What I want is the truth from people you have used em both, what they think of em & which they would buy.
I have some 750 jumps & used to jump a saber 135 till 1999 when my body fell to bits so I have only done 50 jumps in the last few years, but dont let that point ya into telling me I need a 200sqf 7 cell
I like to cut loose in the air but want to land safly to do it again hook turns are out of my book now

thanx

• Quote

[wmw999 2,174]

Dunno how much you weigh, but if your body is broken, and you're not current -- maybe a 135 isn't the best choice.

I haven't jumped either canopy, but have you discussed this with anyone out there?

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[darkwing 4]

Best answer --> You demo them both and decide. I think it very unlikely that you will get useful advice on this from this forum. They are both good canopies, and have many proponents. They are not identical, and the differences end up being whatever is more preferable to YOU.

Individual opinions aren't even particularly useful, since they vary so much anyway, even on the same canopy.

I predict you will be happy with either.

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[skybytch 259]

Quote

used to jump a saber 135 till 1999 when my body fell to bits so I have only done 50 jumps in the last few years, but dont let that point ya into telling me I need a 200sqf 7 cell
I like to cut loose in the air but want to land safly to do it again hook turns are out of my book now

Not going to tell you what you need, but having a previous injury to protect, not staying very current and wanting to land safely are the very reasons I jump a lightly wingloaded main.

[bob.dino 0]

Quote

Best answer --> You demo them both and decide.

Not in Australia you don't. We don't have fleets of demo canopies here.

[tso-d_chris 0]

Quote

G Day guys;

I am on the prowl for some new gear and I have every thing sorted out except which new canopy to get, the two I am tossing up between are the icarus safire2 in 135+- sqf and a pilot 135 I can get the pilot for some $200 aussie less than the safire but money is not realy an issue.
What I want is the truth from people you have used em both, what they think of em & which they would buy.
I have some 750 jumps & used to jump a saber 135 till 1999 when my body fell to bits so I have only done 50 jumps in the last few years, but dont let that point ya into telling me I need a 200sqf 7 cell
I like to cut loose in the air but want to land safly to do it again hook turns are out of my book now

thanx

I normally recommend demoing possible choices. Both canopies have good reputations, and are designed for the same jumpers for the most part. Buying either without demoing first is risking choosing the wrong one, but either (Safire2 or Pilot) is likely to be a good choice.

It sounds like a Safire2 139 or a Pilot 132 might be a bit aggressive, given your currency. It's pretty easy to make a big canopy go fast, but it's pretty tough to make a small canopy fly slowly.

For Great Deals on Gear

[riggerrob 562]

I have jumped Pilot 150, Safire 149 and Safire 129.
All three canopies opened, flew and flared GREAT!
I have a slight preference for the long toggle stroke of Safires.
The Safire 149 was my favorite.
Frankly, the Safire 129 was too fast for my skill level.

[HydroGuy 0]

It is my "perception" that Safire2's have a steeper angle of descent than a Pilot. This is based upon comparing a Pilot 168 to a Safire 2 169, and also on a Pilot 150 compared to a Safire 2 149.

Maybe someone with 1000x's more experience than me can tell me if my perceptions are correct...

Get in - Get off - Get away....repeat as neccessary

[Elisha 1]

Acording to the Icarus guy at the Eloy boogie, your "perception" about the steeper glide angle of the Safire2 vs Pilot is correct...and what I experienced as well. I have demoed a Safire2-149 and Pilot-140. Liked them both compared to my 15 yr old Sabre-150 (getting boring).

[Tonto 1]

I went with the Safire. Pilot's openings were too slow for me. There's a difference between slow and snivel.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[ldskydiver 0]

Did not demo either canopy. Recently purchased a new Pilot 140 after I have been jumping a Sabre 150 for a few years. I love it. The slow openings are welcome after a few "too rapid" on the Sabre. Tiptoe landings at 170lb out the door. Packing is not easy with the slick material.

[phoenixlpr 0]

I have not demod or regreted either.

Pilot rocks even with this stupid name.

[jkbernstein 1]

It is my "perception" that Safire2's have a steeper angle of descent than a Pilot.***


According to Aerodyne, that's a fact: Pilots have a relatively flat glide angle. You can definitely feel and see the difference in flight.

In terms of comparison to other canopies, the guy at Aerodyne whom I spoke to (can't remember his name) said that Pilots "feel like they fly a size larger." That was also my experience comparing the Pilot 140 to a Sabre 150, Sabre2 150, and Triathlon 150. I would guess the comparison is similar with a Safire.

Personally, I LOVE my Pilot - sweet openings, crisp handling, nice landings - but I agree with the "try 'em out" recommendation if you can.

_______________________________________

May the (relative) wind take your troubles away...

[freakyrat 1]

Agree with you. My Pilot 124 opens very slow, flys and turns crisp and has a very flat glide. It's very easy to land in no wind also.

Chris

[riggerrob 562]

In terms of comparison to other canopies, the guy at Aerodyne whom I spoke to (can't remember his name) said that Pilots "feel like they fly a size larger."

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

That is because Aerodyne changed their measuring method when they bought PISA. Before the sale, PISA used the old PIA standard for measuring canopy are (span measured slightly aft of top leading edge) to Performance Designs' method (span measured across bottom skin). So a "new Aerodyne" canopy (i.e. Pilot) has 10% to 15% more fabric than an "old Aerodyne" canopy (i.e. Triathlon).

Similarly, Icarus made a similar change to their measuring method in 2001.

[tempest 0]

Hi Tonto

I've heard you say this a couple of times, and it's obviously from your experience with a pilot demo.

What I find interesting is that it's contrary to my experience on the pilots I've jumped. I've put 200+ jumps on pilots (168 and 150) and my openings are consistently around 400-500 ft.

I pack according to the manual and when (occasionally) I use a packer he does the same. I have had two long snivels when I used a different packer that rolls the nose etc. After showing them the correct packing technique the issue disappeared.

Now, if we take packing out of the equation, could the size affect the opening this much (double the altitude loss)? I'm assuming that the canopy you used was somewhere between 104 and 124 sq ft, while my experience is mainly on a 150.

I'm curious about the answers since it will make demoing a canopy before buying one even more essential.

Blue ones
Emile

[Tonto 1]

Quote

Hi Tonto

I've heard you say this a couple of times, and it's obviously from your experience with a pilot demo.

It wasn't a demo. I bought it to use as a wingsuit canopy (135) and while it performed tolerably in that role it was impossible to use on AFF.

It's the orange and blue one Pears is jumping now, so it's still in use, and as a freeflyer and camera person it seems to be serving him well.

As for packing - IMO, any canopy that cannot be packed generically has a problem. I've used the same packing technique for 2 decades and over a range of canopies from F-111 7 cells to 21 cell ZP crossbraces, with CRW and Tandem in the middle somewhere - and it's worked with all but one.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[freakyrat 1]

I use the same packing technique (leaving nose exposed) on my 124 Pilot that I do on my 120 Stiletto. Both canopies open nicely.

Chris

[tempest 0]

Ok, my mistake on the demo.

I agree that the generic pro-pack shouldn't be an issue (and it happens to be similar to the packing method in the manual), which is why I tried to take it out of the equation.

My question still stands - does the size of the canopy affect the opening characteristics? We all know that canopies don't always scale between sizes, but is it generally true that smaller canopies take longer to open than their larger counterparts (assume same design). Or is this issue just too complex to answer with a simple yes/no.

Well, no mater which canopy anyome jumps, at least we had a full weekend of good weather.

cheers
Emile

[Tonto 1]

I don't know. I do know when I like something and when I don't. Generally I like something that does what I want it to. If it doesn't do that, I could

1. sit and try and figure out how to make it, or
2. choose something else.

I chose option 2.

The weather was great. Sad thing is, it's an African summer! We shouldn't have to comment on it!

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[tempest 0]

I agree. Jump what you are comfortable with, the last thing you need to worry about during an AFF jump is your canopy.

Here's to your Safire and my Pilot.

Maybe someone from a canopy manufacturer can comment on the way size influences opening characteristics, if at all. The answer should be quite interesting.

[tso-d_chris 0]

Quote

I agree. Jump what you are comfortable with, the last thing you need to worry about during an AFF jump is your canopy.

Here's to your Safire and my Pilot.

Maybe someone from a canopy manufacturer can comment on the way size influences opening characteristics, if at all. The answer should be quite interesting.

At one time I was jumping an Icarus Omega 115 and an Icarus Omega 170. As long as I kept the slider against the stops, I could not make the 170 open in less than 1000 feet. I had to actively pack the 115 for an opening soft enough for camera jumps.

This sample is obviously too small to draw any conclusions from, but the results were consistent.

For Great Deals on Gear