Do you believe in Ghosts/Spirits

[RALFFERS 0]

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With that in mind- how can E.V.P (Electronic Voice Phenomena) be explained?

Tell me precisely the conditions of the recording and I'll tell you how it could be faked.

Show me anything that can be held up to scrutiny and I'll point you in the direction of James Randi, who is offering a million dollars for anything that proves paranormal.

Who knows, you might make some money and be famous . . . somehow I doubt it though.

I'll have to read some of his work & get back to you.

On a side note: quade, did you ever consider changing your sig line to: "The world's Most SERIOUS Skydiver ?

Dialogue/commentary between Divot, Twardo & myself -

"from your first Oshkosh when the three of us were riding to or from one of

[MagicGuy 0]

I have to chime in about the fake EVP thing and how it makes 'good tv'.

I can tell you, as a friend of two key members of TAPS, that nothing that they show on their show is faked. In fact, it's quite the opposite. They often de-bunk pieces of evidence that the ordinary person, or I guess I should say the ordinary person that wants to believe, would call a paranormal experience. If you actually follow the show, you'd realize that a lot of the time, they leave a location after calling it NOT haunted. It takes a lot for them to actually label a location as haunted.

Just had to chime in about it. Those guys are the real deal as far as wanting to get to the truth. Making good tv, as much as most people would think, is not what their primary concern is. They perform a lot of investigations outside of the show and risking their reputation is a real concern.

I DO agree that evps can be easily faked, though. I'm just saying that TAPS wouldn't do so just for the sake of 'good tv'.

bodyflight.net, I think it's intriguing that you can actually feel spirits and whatnot. Very cool. I don't know if I could live in a location knowing that messed up events happened in the past. Just knowing that the guy who built our house had is mother pass away in the house next to ours is a little creepy.

[JackC 0]

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what I DO BELIEVE is that there are many types of energy and many ways of manipulating that energy we have yet to understand...

That depends on what you mean by the word energy (probably the most misused word in the English language). I doubt you simply mean the capacity of a physical system to do work.

[jakee 1,280]

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However, do you think (I'm honestly asking) that every reported incident is faked? It would be interesting to find reports of ghosts/spirits before television was around.

Of course there were!

Along with reports of pixies, leprechauns, goblins, fairies, angels, knockers, ifrits, djinn, boggarts, cluracans, elfs, nymphs, gnomes, poltergeists... People like imagining stuff.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[iamsam 0]

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Show me anything that can be held up to scrutiny and I'll point you in the direction of James Randi, who is offering a million dollars for anything that proves paranormal.

I'd be wary of offering him up as an arbitrater if I were you. He's great self publicist but a poor scientist who is remarkably cagey when
asked for specifics and data regarding his testing.



edit to add:

bit off topic but not really

http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2002/04.18/09-tummo.html

extract:

'During visits to remote monasteries in the 1980s, Benson and his team studied monks living in the Himalayan Mountains who could, by g Tum-mo meditation, raise the temperatures of their fingers and toes by as much as 17 degrees. It has yet to be determined how the monks are able to generate such heat.

The researchers also made measurements on practitioners of other forms of advanced meditation in Sikkim, India. They were astonished to find that these monks could lower their metabolism by 64 percent. "It was an astounding, breathtaking [no pun intended] result," Benson exclaims.

To put that decrease in perspective, metabolism, or oxygen consumption, drops only 10-15 percent in sleep and about 17 percent during simple meditation. Benson believes that such a capability could be useful for space travel. Travelers might use meditation to ease stress and oxygen consumption on long flights to other planets.

In 1985, the meditation team made a video of monks drying cold, wet sheets with body heat. They also documented monks spending a winter night on a rocky ledge 15,000 feet high in the Himalayas. The sleep-out took place in February on the night of the winter full moon when temperatures reached zero degrees F. Wearing only woolen or cotton shawls, the monks promptly fell asleep on the rocky ledge, They did not huddle together and the video shows no evidence of shivering. They slept until dawn then walked back to their monastery.'



I would welcome an explanation that fits the western science paradigm. They would tell you they are utilising chi/prana.

If you're going to tell me we don't fully understand how the mind/body works I'd agree with you, but wouldn't that also mean this counts as supernatural according to western thinking, because science doesn't understand or recognise it.

but what do I know

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[quade 3]

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I'd be wary of offering him up as an arbitrater if I were you. He's great self publicist but a poor scientist who is remarkably cagey when
asked for specifics and data regarding his testing.

He doesn't claim to be a scientist.

However, as a man who has spent a lifetime in stage magic fooling millions of people, he is perfectly suited to debunking the "tricks" used by others.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Bodyflight.Net 0]

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.... he is perfectly suited to debunking the "tricks" used by others.

I don't know who this guy is or anything, but are we all overlooking something critical to this guy's line of work?

Seems to me.. anyone in this thread anyway who has volunteered their feelings on the topic, and anyone I have ever spoken to that also believe, have come to such feelings due to personal experiences... not tv shows, legends or public displays. They have all been very personal experiences they share with only themselves or few precious others. No magicians present.

[quade 3]

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.... he is perfectly suited to debunking the "tricks" used by others.

I don't know who this guy is or anything, but are we all overlooking something critical to this guy's line of work?

Seems to me.. anyone in this thread anyway who has volunteered their feelings on the topic, and anyone I have ever spoken to that also believe, have come to such feelings due to personal experiences... not tv shows, legends or public displays. They have all been very personal experiences they share with only themselves or few precious others. No magicians present.

Nobody in the world can tell anybody else that they haven't seen or spoken with a spirit or god.

That said, if somebody says that the spirt or god tells them things on a regular basis and we should all act on that information because if we do then this or that will happen, well, that actually IS testable.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Vallerina 2]

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If you're going to tell me we don't fully understand how the mind/body works I'd agree with you, but wouldn't that also mean this counts as supernatural according to western thinking, because science doesn't understand or recognise it.

I'm not going to remark on that specific case since I don't know enough about it.

Typically, people don't mean "not understood by science" when they speak of the supernatural. There is plenty that scientists don't understand (although, they all understand more than me!) Supernatural is more along the meaning of "outside the realm of science." Memories/visions/etc are untestable claims. Even if science doesn't understand everything, and just because we can't see something doesn't make it untestable (ie, black holes.) People much smarter than myself can make predictions based on observations of black holes, however. That can't be done with ghosts. When esp and other paranormal phenomenon are put up to scientific testing, they fail.

As far as James Randi, personally, if he was going to give me a million dollars to do something I *know* I can do....you bet I'd fly there so fast to have it tested under clinical settings!

And Ralf, no I don't think all "observations" are hoaxes. Like I said, I think it can also be chalked up to things like radio interference and the fact that people really want to hear voices in randomness.

Another great resource (if James Randi's beard scares you or something) is Micahel Shermer http://www.michaelshermer.com/ He does a much better job of explaining the paranormal than I do!

I don't expect that people who believe will ever disbelieve, and that's a-ok. It doesn't change my life any. However, I just hope people read more about it from the scientific side before throwing away time/money on stuff that doesn't exist. And learning about why it doesn't exist is actually a fun way to learn more about the world in general!

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[Remster 26]

Science is hard! Lets go to the mall!

Remster

[Vallerina 2]

I didn't play with Barbies much...except for when I'd cut off all their hair.

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[iamsam 0]

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Even if science doesn't understand everything, and just because we can't see something doesn't make it untestable (ie, black holes.) People much smarter than myself can make predictions based on observations of black holes,

I thought this was all theory? When has a black hole been tested? What did they find? We only have predictions, like you say.

If you actually look at it, a lot of our 'understanding' of space is unproven theory. There are models that offer alternative explanations than the one taught pretty much as gospel, which also do a better job of explaining the dichotomy between some accepted scientific theories.

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I don't expect that people who believe will ever disbelieve, and that's a-ok. It doesn't change my life any. However, I just hope people read more about it from the scientific side before throwing away time/money on stuff that doesn't exist. And learning about why it doesn't exist is actually a fun way to learn more about the world in general!

I don't expect that people who disbelieve will ever believe and thats fine with me too, I just like throwing some of this out there so people who aren't firmly in your camp have more resources so they can make their own minds up. As I've said before you need to keep an open mind when looking at this, as it goes against some pretty fundamental tenets of western belief. 'Learning about why it doesn't exist' means you've made you mind up already, so you'll only find information to support your view, but thats OK.

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I'm posting no more to this thread, to the believers and non-believers - blue skies, live long and prosper.

but what do I know

[RALFFERS 0]

Val, don't get me wrong - I agree with what you're saying...and very much try to look at things from a scientific angle. All I'm saying is that there is a possibility that a spiritual realm outside of our own may exist. That said, I've been able to discredit some of my experiences to things like the environment, fatigue, etc, etc... While others I have yet to explain - hence why I believe it's possible.

This could be an interesting discussion we could have in person - safety day probably wont be jumpable, come on out... I'll have a bottle of your choice of champagne ready & waiting.

Dialogue/commentary between Divot, Twardo & myself -

"from your first Oshkosh when the three of us were riding to or from one of

[Vallerina 2]

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I thought this was all theory? When has a black hole been tested? What did they find? We only have predictions, like you say.

If you actually look at it, a lot of our 'understanding' of space is unproven theory. There are models that offer alternative explanations than the one taught pretty much as gospel, which also do a better job of explaining the dichotomy between some accepted scientific theories.

Funny enough from Scientific American yesterday... http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=fiber-optic-event-horizon-mimics-black-hole I really am NOT the person to learn more about black holes from. That's what physicists are for!

You are correct that much is in "theory." However, these theories make predictions. Sometimes, scientists find evidence to support these predictions. Often times, they don't. That's science! One example is the big bang theory. It is, of course, a theory. However, based on that theory, scientists can make predictions like the red shift. When they find evidence of it, it supports the theory. However, sometimes they get it wrong, and that's the beauty of science. It's not assuming that what we don't know is unknowable.

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[jakee 1,280]

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I thought this was all theory? When has a black hole been tested?

Every time we point a telescope at one. Scientists create theories based on observtions. These theories make predictions about what should be seen in future. Then, scientists make new obvservations and compare the results to theoretical predictions. If they match, the theory is strengthened and subjected to more tests, if they don't it is modified or abandoned, then the cycle restarts from square one.

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There are models that offer alternative explanations than the one taught pretty much as gospel, which also do a better job of explaining the dichotomy between some accepted scientific theories

What is taught as gospel? What are these alternatives? What dichotomies do they explain?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[MagicGuy 0]

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No magicians present.

(raises hand)

Here's one! Sorry, couldn't help it.

[Bodyflight.Net 0]

i was referring to those times where people have had their own personal experience

what magicians, assumably you do, is fantastic and a phenomenon in and of itself. taking advantage of human nature & manipulating what IS into something it IS NOT, is also remarkable.

[vortexring 0]

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No. The ghosts/spirits that people see or hear can be explained by other physical factors.

How would you explain a 6 and a 12 year old seeing someone in the backyard they have never met, seen, or been told about, but could descirbe what he looked like and was buried wearing to a "t"?

Or, a 2-3 year old (not sure his age) talking to "himself" in his room regualrly and able to point out a picture of his dead uncle and say his name, when no one has told him about the uncle?

I'm honestly curious as to what other physical factors could explain it.

I rarely post here in Bonfire - rarely read the posts, but this one made me sit up. My children and my sisters children have had very similiar experiences. My Dad has seen a ghost in his house. Mad!

I've not though - and I'm not exactly itching for the experience.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[Royd 0]

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No.

There is no seperate entity of being called the 'soul'. When your neurons stop firing, you're gone. Dead is dead.

It could be that only those with truly open minds are able to sense that which is beyond the realm of the five senses. Sort of like Galileo thinking that there was more to the heavens that what could be seen with the naked eye.

[quade 3]

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No.

There is no seperate entity of being called the 'soul'. When your neurons stop firing, you're gone. Dead is dead.

It could be that only those with truly open minds are able to sense that which is beyond the realm of the five senses. Sort of like Galileo thinking that there was more to the heavens that what could be seen with the naked eye.

Except that what you're talking about is a bullshit comparison.

Everything needed to understand the nature of the Sun-centric solar system has been observable since before man crawled out of the oooze by anyone inclined to look upwards, do some measurements and come up with a proper theory.

What you're suggesting is that there is a "special" set of people with "open minds" that can somehow "perceive" things the rest of us can't. That is, well, bullshit.

When Galileo looked at Jupiter and saw moons around it, it wasn't because he had an "open mind" it's because he had a freekin' telescope. HE didn't perceive anything more than already existed.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[PoppyFunk 0]

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I'd like to go to Waverly Hills Sanitarium again. I went once a couple of years ago and there is definately something there - just what I don't know - but I was pretty jumpy the whole time. Of course, darkness and winds blowing through the place may have played a part in the experience but I loved it and would go again. I'd also be game for a trip to Eastern State but Waverly Hills is where I'd rather go. I especially liked the place they called the "Death Tunnel". That place was spooky.

TripleF

I've been to Waverly with the Louisville Ghost Hunters (which I was a member of for a little while). Waverly is reputed to be one of the most haunted places in the country. One of its biggest claims to fame are shadow people. They are just like the name describes, just shadows of a human form, but dense enough to break light. We were once standing on the fourth floor, about midnight, and just watching them move around the halls. If you just stood there with all the lights off, you could watch them walk from room to room and look around the walls at us. At one point, someone pointed out a figure that seemed to be coming down the hall towards our group (normally they stayed away). A member of the group had a laser pointer which showed a temperature reading where the beam fell and he shined it on the figure. It was about twenty degrees colder than the surrounding area and the beam stopped directly on the shadow (light didn't penetrate it). We stood there in the hall and watching this spot of light where it was hitting the figure get closer and closer to us. At about ten feet away, the shadow suddenly disappeared and the light shot back down to the end of the hall, bouncing off the wall.

I certainly haven't worked out all of my own beliefs about ghosts/spirits/demon/etc. I've seen and felt enough things to make me believe there is *something* there, but I don't really know what. The children's hospital I worked in previously was thought to be haunted in the wing I was assigned to work. While there, I witnessed charts flying off of a flat shelf, a kick sink suddenly coming on when no one else was in the room, shadows moving under a closed door of an empty room, repeatedly turned off the call light in one vacant room, had a child laugh in my ear, and several other things.

I tend to put some stock in psychic imprinting theories, but I don't think it explains everything. It definitely doesn't explain those situations where there seems to be real interaction between the observer and the entity, for lack of a better word.

"Analyze this!"
http://www.myspace.com/poppyfunk

[Royd 0]

It could be that only those with truly open minds are able to sense that which is beyond the realm of the five senses. Sort of like Galileo thinking that there was more to the heavens that what could be seen with the naked eye.

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Except that what you're talking about is a bullshit comparison.

Everything needed to understand the nature of the Sun-centric solar system has been observable since before man crawled out of the oooze by anyone inclined to look upwards, do some measurements and come up with a proper theory.

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What you're suggesting is that there is a "special" set of people with "open minds" that can somehow "perceive" things the rest of us can't. That is, well, bullshit.

There you go again with that closed mind.

Are you saying that there is no such thing as a sixth sense? Some of us can smell a con artist a mile away, while others fall into his trap.

It sounds like you are saying that no one has any special talents or gifts that other people do not possess.

[RALFFERS 0]

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I'd like to go to Waverly Hills Sanitarium again. I went once a couple of years ago and there is definately something there - just what I don't know - but I was pretty jumpy the whole time. Of course, darkness and winds blowing through the place may have played a part in the experience but I loved it and would go again. I'd also be game for a trip to Eastern State but Waverly Hills is where I'd rather go. I especially liked the place they called the "Death Tunnel". That place was spooky.

TripleF

I've been to Waverly with the Louisville Ghost Hunters (which I was a member of for a little while). Waverly is reputed to be one of the most haunted places in the country. One of its biggest claims to fame are shadow people. They are just like the name describes, just shadows of a human form, but dense enough to break light. We were once standing on the fourth floor, about midnight, and just watching them move around the halls. If you just stood there with all the lights off, you could watch them walk from room to room and look around the walls at us. At one point, someone pointed out a figure that seemed to be coming down the hall towards our group (normally they stayed away). A member of the group had a laser pointer which showed a temperature reading where the beam fell and he shined it on the figure. It was about twenty degrees colder than the surrounding area and the beam stopped directly on the shadow (light didn't penetrate it). We stood there in the hall and watching this spot of light where it was hitting the figure get closer and closer to us. At about ten feet away, the shadow suddenly disappeared and the light shot back down to the end of the hall, bouncing off the wall.

I certainly haven't worked out all of my own beliefs about ghosts/spirits/demon/etc. I've seen and felt enough things to make me believe there is *something* there, but I don't really know what. The children's hospital I worked in previously was thought to be haunted in the wing I was assigned to work. While there, I witnessed charts flying off of a flat shelf, a kick sink suddenly coming on when no one else was in the room, shadows moving under a closed door of an empty room, repeatedly turned off the call light in one vacant room, had a child laugh in my ear, and several other things.

I tend to put some stock in psychic imprinting theories, but I don't think it explains everything. It definitely doesn't explain those situations where there seems to be real interaction between the observer and the entity, for lack of a better word.

Very interesting! I'm finding it damn hard to think of explanations for what you've described.

Reading your post made me remember something my mother experienced... Years ago, when her boyfriend died of cancer (he was an atheist or agnostic at best by the way) something happened to her that none of us can explain to this day. She received a strange phone call 1 night, on her cell phone - she said she only heard static, but through that it was as if someone was trying to say something, but it couldn't be made out. The next morning the boyfriends daughter called my mother to inform her Joe had died during the night, & when my mother asked when the time was shortly before that phone call (about 2:30 in the morning). However, it doesn't end there, the kicker is - on a hunch my mother checked the phone records; sure enough, there was a call placed from his phone to my mothers at the time in question...the thing is, his phone was turned off & locked in a public storage from the time he was admitted into the hospital.

The phone thing is also sort of significant because that was there main way to communicate (also the first cell phones for the both of them.) My mother had a very hectic schedule, and he was away at times as well; they were CONSTANTLY on those phones with each other.

Dialogue/commentary between Divot, Twardo & myself -

"from your first Oshkosh when the three of us were riding to or from one of

[Zenister 0]

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what I DO BELIEVE is that there are many types of energy and many ways of manipulating that energy we have yet to understand...

That depends on what you mean by the word energy (probably the most misused word in the English language). I doubt you simply mean the capacity of a physical system to do work.

No I mean exactly that. The only stipulation being I believe there are forms we've learned to observe, measure and control (to an extent) and those we have not.

but ofc the word 'work' itself is relative to the scenario under discussion in addition, I would strike the word physical (an equally misused term in this regard) from your definition.

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[jakee 1,280]

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It could be that only those with truly open minds are able to sense that which is beyond the realm of the five senses.

No.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?