Radios and student training

[timmyfitz 0]

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Radios were not common even a short while ago at 182 dzs

Incorrect. I did my first jump in 1993. Didn't jump again until 1999. On my first jump in 93 all students had radios. In 99 all students had radios. They were both 182 dropzones. Since 99, I have been to a handful of 182 dropzones, all with radios.

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radios are mandatory,

Radios are not mandatory.

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Spotting through clouds, you are telling me that you think it's common to bar experienced jumpers from going up because you don't trust them to spot

Spotting through clouds is different than spotting around clouds. One may get you in trouble with the FAA.

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Simply look at all the rules that are in place today that weren't there even 5 years ago.

Which rules might those be? The ones that increased safety? If you are comparing a few dropzones that have set up mandatory rules as opposed to the entire dropzone world, I don't see any babysitting.

You don't know what you don't know.

[ufk22 32]

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I am fairly new to the sport, so I am still learning a lot and find this discussion intetesting. Did my AFF back in February and when I was gearing up to make my first jump, I asked my instructor if I was going to be on Radio......his reply was "no". Which didnt bother me due to the fact that we stood out in the landing area going over the landing pattern that I needed to fly and why. There were specific check points (3 of them) that I needed to use as a reference and at which altitudes I needed to be at over each one. If the wind changed, we were out there going over the new pattern. I feel that by him going over this numerous times and quizzing me like crazy, I felt comfortable enough that when he told me NO to the radio, it didnt bother me at all. Now if I would have had an instructor that did not really spend all that much time and being so detailed, I might have been a little bit more apprehensive about the landing pattern and landing safely when I was told no to using a radio.

So what type of communication device was used? Arrow on ground, paddles, or nothing?

Arrows would have been cool to see.......but no, there was no communication device used.

So, NO form of communication with a first jump student? Read your SIM and tell me if you think there's anything wrong with this...

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[ufk22 32]

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Radios were not common even a short while ago at 182 dzs

Incorrect. I did my first jump in 1993. Didn't jump again until 1999. On my first jump in 93 all students had radios. In 99 all students had radios. They were both 182 dropzones. Since 99, I have been to a handful of 182 dropzones, all with radios.

You don't know what you don't know.

Agreed.
I took the first jump course in 1989 and all students had radios, as they have had for every first jump course I've taught sinse. Radio was also used at 2 other cessna DZ's in our area for at least that long. Just because you were trained at a very "old school" DZ doesn't mean the rest of the world is that far behind the times. The DZ's in our area stoped using round mains in the mid-80's too.

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[tetra316 0]

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Radios were not common even a short while ago at 182 dzs

Incorrect. I did my first jump in 1993. Didn't jump again until 1999. On my first jump in 93 all students had radios. In 99 all students had radios. They were both 182 dropzones. Since 99, I have been to a handful of 182 dropzones, all with radios.

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radios are mandatory,

Radios are not mandatory.

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Spotting through clouds, you are telling me that you think it's common to bar experienced jumpers from going up because you don't trust them to spot

Spotting through clouds is different than spotting around clouds. One may get you in trouble with the FAA.

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Simply look at all the rules that are in place today that weren't there even 5 years ago.

Which rules might those be? The ones that increased safety? If you are comparing a few dropzones that have set up mandatory rules as opposed to the entire dropzone world, I don't see any babysitting.

You don't know what you don't know.

If radios were so common then why did four different dzs out of 5 in one state not use them? I find it very hard to believe that this is such an anomoly that you paint it to be, especially among club type/small dzs.

I never said radios are mandatory. Don't know where you got that from.

And I'm saying that holding an experienced jumper load while sending tandems because you don't trust fun jumpers to spot is babysitting. Teach them to spot. By the way I've only seen this happen at one place but still.

I've already stated what the 'rules' are that keep getting added - go back and reread my post. You might better understand what I'm trying to say. Especially that yes I do agree some are safety oriented improvements but some are not.

You don't know what I don't know but I do know what I don't know. I've may have only been around for a few years but I have been to many different dzs large and small in many states. My opinion is still my opinion, even if some don't agree with it, and I do have some experience on which to base that opinion. After all opinions are like assholes anyway, including yours and mine

[wolfriverjoe 1,342]

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If radios were so common then why did four different dzs out of 5 in one state not use them? I find it very hard to believe that this is such an anomoly that you paint it to be, especially among club type/small dzs...

...You don't know what I don't know but I do know what I don't know. I've may have only been around for a few years but I have been to many different dzs large and small in many states. My opinion is still my opinion, even if some don't agree with it, and I do have some experience on which to base that opinion. After all opinions are like assholes anyway, including yours and mine

You're entitled to your opinion, but my opinion and experiences differ.

In 02 when I started, all three DZs (Wolf River, Green Bay and Skydive Adventures) in northeast Wi used radios for students. All three are small 182 DZs.
There are junk radios at Wolf River in the back room with "in service" dates of 1993, which is when that DZ opened.

I don't know if your experience of no radio use or my experience of widespread radio use is the anomaly.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[tetra316 0]

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I don't know if your experience of no radio use or my experience of widespread radio use is the anomaly.

It would be interesting to really find out. Not from just a couple people but out of 100 or so 182 dzs I wonder how many used radios 5-10 years ago. I've always thought radio useage amount them was the rarity. Maybe not.

[timmyfitz 0]

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If radios were so common then why did four different dzs out of 5 in one state not use them? I find it very hard to believe that this is such an anomoly that you paint it to be, especially among club type/small dzs.

They may be just that. An anomaly in the state in which you refer. But as you stated "Radios were not common even a short while ago at 182 dzs" is not true for DZ's nation wide.

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I never said radios are mandatory. Don't know where you got that from.

Post #88

"I just find it interesting that this sport seems to slowly be moving into the babysitting aspect in all areas from student to experienced. Examples, radios are mandatory, AADs are mandatory, no turns over 90, "

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You don't know what I don't know

You don't know what you don't know (or what you wrote)

[tetra316 0]

Yes radios are mandatory at some dzs, along with other things I listed. You said radios are not mandatory which is wrong. You don't know what you dion't know either it seems.

[hchunter614 0]

I would say that if a lawsuit can result from using a radio the same lawsuit can happen because of using paddles. "The school choose to use an outdated, inferior method of communicating with the student." You can paint any picture you want using any method there is.

[timmyfitz 0]

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Yes radios are mandatory at some dzs, along with other things I listed. You said radios are not mandatory which is wrong. You don't know what you dion't know either it seems.

If you want to claim radios are required at SOME dropzones, that fine (individual DZ rules). You made a blanket statement that "radios are mandatory".

But radios for students are not mandatory. Please specify where it says so in the SIM. The USPA can make mandatory rules for USPA DZ's. Individual DZ rules do not make something mandatory at all USPA DZ's.

[tetra316 0]

Geez, a little reading comprehension please. I never claimed to make blanket statements. I listed examples of some things dzs are making mandatory:

Examples, radios are mandatory, AADs are mandatory, no turns over 90, holding a fun jumper load because you don't trust them to spot through clouds, relying on GPS instead of your own spotting, etc.

If you are going to nit pick please do so accurately. Turns over 90 and AADs are also mandaotry in the same respect that radios are mandatory, AT SOME DZS.

[faulknerwn 36]

I learned at 2 different dzs in Florida back in 1993, both used radios. Moved to TX in 1994, and every dz I've ever been to in this state (Cessna ones included) used them as well.

[AndyMan 7]

I learned at 3 DZ's in the eastern Great Lakes in the 90's - always had a radio. As an instructor, I now work at, and regularly visit countless DZ's in the midwest, they all use radios.

It's true that radios are not mandatory, but I certainly would question the logic of someone who runs a program without them. They are good tools, and ignoring a good tool out of principle seems... misguided.

_Am

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You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[riggerrob 558]

" ...
And I'm saying that holding an experienced jumper load while sending tandems because you don't trust fun jumpers to spot is babysitting. ..."

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Holy thread drift Batman!

That is because you cannot trust some experienced jumpers to spot clear of cloud.
For example, we used to have a jerk - at Pitt Meadows - who deliberately steered the airplane over clouds, down-wind swooped the bowl during boogies, etc.
He got fired before the end of the season.
DZOs are wise to ground jerks like that, because if the FAA sees their shenandegans, the feds will ground the entire DZ.

[timmyfitz 0]

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Geez, a little reading comprehension please. I never claimed to make blanket statements.

No you didn't claim to make a blanket statement, you just made one.

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I just find it interesting that this sport seems to slowly be moving into the babysitting aspect in all areas from student to experienced. Examples, radios are mandatory, AADs are mandatory, no turns over 90, holding a fun jumper load because you don't trust them to spot through clouds, relying on GPS instead of your own spotting, etc.

[tetra316 0]

So sorry you are having such a hard time understanding those are examples I've given as to what some dzs are implementing.

[SkyPixie 0]

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If radios were so common then why did four different dzs out of 5 in one state not use them? I find it very hard to believe that this is such an anomoly that you paint it to be, especially among club type/small dzs.

They may be just that. An anomaly in the state in which you refer. But as you stated "Radios were not common even a short while ago at 182 dzs" is not true for DZ's nation wide.

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I never said radios are mandatory. Don't know where you got that from.

Post #88

"I just find it interesting that this sport seems to slowly be moving into the babysitting aspect in all areas from student to experienced. Examples, radios are mandatory, AADs are mandatory, no turns over 90, "

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You don't know what I don't know

You don't know what you don't know (or what you wrote)

+1
You have the right tune. Sometimes we just have to stop whistling against the wind. If you read all the threads, this one's direction changes constantly and is all over the place

Don't worry about fear, worry about the addiction.

[timmyfitz 0]

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So sorry you are having such a hard time understanding those are examples I've given as to what some dzs are implementing.

OK. You win.

[tetra316 0]

No actually you win for getting a thread drift going and me responding

[bluetwo 0]

I don't mind the radio at all. The student parachute I usually jump with has such a crisp slider and no way to stow it that I can barely hear the radio sometimes though.

I can feel that I'm starting to get a really good feeling for when it's ok to fly around and when I need to stay over the landing area and I'm getting a good idea of when to flare on landings and that's totally due to repitition.

When I got my ground instruction the landing section was so inclusive that I was expecting very little help from the radio man but I didn't mind getting a good bit of it all.

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