Radios and student training

[neue 0]

Actually, that's a great scenario. I never thought about that. I'd imagine i'd be in a similar predicament.

That's a good way of handling it too, by letting the student look for himself and seeing the shit. I would do the same and cut. Guarantee he never forgets to look up after a collapse again.

Now that i've read that, neither will I.

[burtonjm 0]

I know when I was under canopy I was NOT expecting anything from my instructors via radio. I was told they would ask me to kick my legs if I could hear them, and other than that I would hear nothing unless I was screwing up.

That was great. If I wasn't hearing anything I knew my pattern was good. If I screwed up I would hear something and know I needed to follow it.

This shit, right here, is OK

[SkyPixie 0]

You rock!

I'm new and this website has been a good resource for me. Just from reading all the responses, MOST instructors with over 5,000 jumps and more than 10 yrs of experience always deliver their opinions and advice in the briefest and most logical way. They are the ones I keep track of and listen to.

It's scary that a lot of relatively NEW instructors out there can't look at safety from your perspective. SOME instructors get so way in over their heads at 1,700 jumps, think they have been around forever that they know everything, and don't realize they still have a lot to learn from good mentors like you.

Blue Skies!

Don't worry about fear, worry about the addiction.

[DeNReN 0]

Quote

You rock!

I'm new and this website has been a good resource for me. Just from reading all the responses, MOST instructors with over 5,000 jumps and more than 10 yrs of experience always deliver their opinions and advice in the briefest and most logical way. They are the ones I keep track of and listen to.

It's scary that a lot of relatively NEW instructors out there can't look at safety from your perspective. SOME instructors get so way in over their heads at 1,700 jumps, think they have been around forever that they know everything, and don't realize they still have a lot to learn from good mentors like you.

Blue Skies!

I am quoting this incase it gets deleted like the posters 1st thread.

This person makes me nervous...lutz...

[skygnat 0]

I felt the radio was helpful on my first few jumps, and for many of the same reasons others noted here. However, it is far from perfect, and there are occasional problems with its use.

On AFF Jump 2 my instructor was radioing me to “turn left, turn left” after I had entered a good landing pattern. He was persistent and sounded aggravated. After doing a 360 and with the ground getting close, I decided to ignore the radio and bee-line downwind to a clear area.

Turns out the instructor was looking at the wrong canopy.

This appears to be a mistake that may be just a tad more common than most would care to admit. And there are many ways such a mistake could end badly.

That said, one should understand that the radio is only an instructional aid. If anything you are told to do on the radio goes against your training and instincts, then assess the situation as quickly as possible and use your best judgment to make the call on what to do.

Ultimately, while under canopy you are the pilot in command of your aircraft and responsible for your own safety, and possibly the safety of those around you.

[ILikePizza 0]

I feel a student should recognize a need for a cutaway before your Instructor is even on the ground... If that doesn't happen, bigger issues are there than whether or not the Instructor should have a radio.

I jumped with one my first 4 jumps, and it was silent for 2. I did hear a lot of chatter to other students, but my guys did a good job letting us know who they were speaking to.

All in all, I think they're a good idea. However, I'm super green, and I find this conversation interesting...

...And I'm not gonna not get Randy Jackson's autograph...
Did we just become best friends?

D.S. #1000000

[egloskerry 0]

So far I've had a radio on every jump, but get very little instruction, just because I land fine. They might give me small corrections, and I am glad it's there as I'm not 100% comfortable with landings yet, but I would have no problem were the radio to fail.

[erdnarob 1]

You can train students to take charge of their landing pattern but a radio control can be a valuable back up device. What actually happens is that on 100 first jump students, you will get few of them (1 to 5) completely lost and disorientated. If there is no radio, they can go and land at unsafe places and hurt themselves. Since you don't know who will be in that kind of situation, having no radio is not a solution and if something bad happens, a law suit can be the result and this time YOU will be a very weak situation.
Stay on the safe side for beginners. When a student has been very good at landing pattern, you can put him on "radio minimum" where the ground instructor intervenes only if necessary.
Now I have seen the army argument where no radio is used. Army paratroopers don't need ground control radio since their parachute is round and generally not modified then not steerable). They are also mass dropped therefore it is better if they cannot steer their parachute in order to avoid collision (they all go in the same direction). The spot is calculated for all of them and they are dropped generally in a very large area. Sport parachutists have features the paratroopers don't have like : control toggles, forward speed due to square parachute (which means more traveling distance), a generally more restricted landing area and last but not the least...more possibility of a law suite.
Some people are not very good to orient themselves in two dimensions, imagine in 3 dimensions. It is up to the ground instructor to clear any beginner from radio control when landing proficiency has been shown and that can be done after 2-3 jumps with some of them. Some thoughtful students even ask to stay on radio control for few more jumps when you want to let them go by themselves.
As I have mentioned it, for me it's important to land at a chosen place ie. the landing area. Landing outside the airport can be very dangerous since anything can be waiting for you :houses, hydro lines, highways, trees, lakes, quarries, parking, scrap yards...name it.
Use a radio for beginners, you will not regret it.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[Baksteen 84]

I agree with what you say, but wouldn't you be in the same legal position if a student was to land in a tree *despite* radio instruction? They could always blame you for "giving incompetent instruction", even if they were simply not reacting to the radio. Their word against that of the DZ.

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[tetra316 0]

A lawsuit can also result simply by using a radio. Haven't we all heard of instructors getting confused on which student they are guiding? What if they tell someone to cutaway and the wrong student cuts away and dies or is severly injured? Major lawsuit right there. What if the instructors misjudges the student's altitude during the descent and that results in injury or badly timed flare. Again they could blame the radio operator.

I do agree with you that radios are a good tool that is available now so why not utilitze it. I'm just pointing out that there are good and bad aspects of using and not using a radio. Just interested in others take on the whole thing.

I don't have an opinion since I've never used radios. That's why I posted the question.

[riggerrob 558]

Quote

I agree with what you say, but wouldn't you be in the same legal position if a student was to land in a tree *despite* radio instruction? They could always blame you for "giving incompetent instruction", even if they were simply not reacting to the radio. Their word against that of the DZ.

....................................................................

In any business interaction - between an amateur and a professional - the onus is always on the professional to be perfect.
The closer the radio instructor is to perfect, the less the chance of a lawsuit.
Lawyers will try to use any excuse to make a skydiving school look bad.
However, there are several ways to reduce the possibility of a lawsuit, that start with simple, consistent words of command over the radio.
It also helps if several other students are listening at the same time, often one of them will report: "The instructor gave decent instructions, but the other student froze."
As soon as it becomes clear that someone else is willing to testify in court about the victim's willful disobedience, the sooner the case will be dropped, because no student wants to be publicly called an idiot in court.
It also helps to keep radio instructors honest if manifest is listening too.

[erdnarob 1]

Baksteen and you are right in the way that a law suit can occur in the cases you both mention. But what seems your weak point is that both of you put in balance the inexperience of the beginner versus the experience of the ground instructor. The ground instructor should be well trained and have to show proficiency in ground controlling the students.

In case of a law suit, you have to demonstrate that you have offered the best and safest services possible to the beginner.
However a law suit can occur anyway but the difference is that you can have a strong position or a weak one as a defendant.
There is a difference between being negligent and doing a mistake. The first one is being careless about safety while the second is "human".
DZO's and DZ staff know the risk involved with skydiving business and that is why they have to be as professional as possible.
There is also more chance to have a beginner making a goof under canopy than a qualified ground radio instructor to do so. The USPA and the CSPA are clear, you need to have a suitable way of communication between the ground and the student under canopy and that has to be done by qualified people. I guess they figure that out after years and years of skydiving experience.

If as a qualified ground instructor you do your best, nobody will blame you. If we start being scared by the possibility of a law suit, there will be soon no more: instructors, coaches, riggers, DZO's and...skydiving.

Note: that kind of issue is very interesting to discuss. There is no perfect system. But in my opinion, leaving a beginner under canopy without any support from the ground is not defensible.
Thanks for your interest in this thread.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[tetra316 0]

Quote

But in my opinion, leaving a beginner under canopy without any support from the ground is not defensible.
Thanks for your interest in this thread.

I fully agree. However, there are other ways to communicate with a student under canopy than using radios. You can use paddles and whatever else may have been used in the past. I just find it interesting that this sport seems to slowly be moving into the babysitting aspect in all areas from student to experienced. Examples, radios are mandatory, AADs are mandatory, no turns over 90, holding a fun jumper load because you don't trust them to spot through clouds, relying on GPS instead of your own spotting, etc.

Yes I know there may be some places where the above do not exist but they are getting fewer and fewer.

[riggerrob 558]

The problem with paddles and arrows is that students first have to look at the target, then figure out which way the arrow is pointing, etc.

Some students are so blissed-out after opening that they will cheerfully drift into town without ever touching their steering toggles.

One advantage of radios is that you can say: "Student number one, if you can hear me, make a left turn and face the target" to jolt them out of their post-opening bliss.

[julio_gyn 0]

on my 3rd or 4th jump, the student after me had a very bad exit and his foot induced a line over (SL) and the instructor had to deal with him (the pilot contacted groud by another radio) and I had do land without help. I did a good landing, a few meters of the arrow and standing. the only jump I really needed a radio was the first one, and I think the radio is only to help on the first jump or emergencies. the instructor on the "first jump course" need to have some extra focus on landing, and a good talk before the take off. just my 2c....

Julio Cesar
blue skies

[skycamefalling 0]

I am fairly new to the sport, so I am still learning a lot and find this discussion intetesting. Did my AFF back in February and when I was gearing up to make my first jump, I asked my instructor if I was going to be on Radio......his reply was "no". Which didnt bother me due to the fact that we stood out in the landing area going over the landing pattern that I needed to fly and why. There were specific check points (3 of them) that I needed to use as a reference and at which altitudes I needed to be at over each one. If the wind changed, we were out there going over the new pattern. I feel that by him going over this numerous times and quizzing me like crazy, I felt comfortable enough that when he told me NO to the radio, it didnt bother me at all. Now if I would have had an instructor that did not really spend all that much time and being so detailed, I might have been a little bit more apprehensive about the landing pattern and landing safely when I was told no to using a radio.

Speedracer~I predict that Michael Jackson will rise from the dead.
And that a giant radioactive duck will emerge from the ocean and eat Baltimore.

[davelepka 4]

Quote

I am fairly new to the sport, so I am still learning a lot and find this discussion intetesting. Did my AFF back in February and when I was gearing up to make my first jump, I asked my instructor if I was going to be on Radio......his reply was "no". Which didnt bother me due to the fact that we stood out in the landing area going over the landing pattern that I needed to fly and why. There were specific check points (3 of them) that I needed to use as a reference and at which altitudes I needed to be at over each one. If the wind changed, we were out there going over the new pattern. I feel that by him going over this numerous times and quizzing me like crazy, I felt comfortable enough that when he told me NO to the radio, it didnt bother me at all. Now if I would have had an instructor that did not really spend all that much time and being so detailed, I might have been a little bit more apprehensive about the landing pattern and landing safely when I was told no to using a radio.

Good for your instructor. Now tell me what you would have done if your climb out took too long, and you exited the aircraft 1/2 mile from where you thought you would?

How about if you had paniced (like some students do) and opened your canopy at 8000'?

What if your main or reserve accidentally deployed at 8000'?

Any of the above scenarios would have made it more difficult to locate the airport from under canopy. In the case of the high altitude deployments, you would have also run the risk of landing miles away from the airport, making it more difficult for the staff to locate you. If you had suffered an injury on landing, this would have delayed care from a first responder.

All of the unusual circumstances aside, students typically open at 5000', and if there's any kind of upper winds, you won't be exiting or opening too close to the DZ. The bottom line is that with a radio the instructor could give you a heads up like, 'Hey Skipy, the airport is behind you. Turn around and head home'. If you happened to find the airport, your instructor always has the option to say nothing, as if you had no radio, but if you really have no radio, then saying nothing is the only option.

[spootch 0]

Quote

Quote

But in my opinion, leaving a beginner under canopy without any support from the ground is not defensible.
Thanks for your interest in this thread.

Quote

I just find it interesting that this sport seems to slowly be moving into the babysitting aspect in all areas from student to experienced.

Thats how we learn to skydive in this day an age. And if a jumper is smart, they will take baby steps while being babysat......it makes for an older, less broken skydiver in the end

[skycamefalling 0]

Quote

Quote

I am fairly new to the sport, so I am still learning a lot and find this discussion intetesting. Did my AFF back in February and when I was gearing up to make my first jump, I asked my instructor if I was going to be on Radio......his reply was "no". Which didnt bother me due to the fact that we stood out in the landing area going over the landing pattern that I needed to fly and why. There were specific check points (3 of them) that I needed to use as a reference and at which altitudes I needed to be at over each one. If the wind changed, we were out there going over the new pattern. I feel that by him going over this numerous times and quizzing me like crazy, I felt comfortable enough that when he told me NO to the radio, it didnt bother me at all. Now if I would have had an instructor that did not really spend all that much time and being so detailed, I might have been a little bit more apprehensive about the landing pattern and landing safely when I was told no to using a radio.

Good for your instructor. Now tell me what you would have done if your climb out took too long, and you exited the aircraft 1/2 mile from where you thought you would?

How about if you had paniced (like some students do) and opened your canopy at 8000'?

What if your main or reserve accidentally deployed at 8000'?

Any of the above scenarios would have made it more difficult to locate the airport from under canopy. In the case of the high altitude deployments, you would have also run the risk of landing miles away from the airport, making it more difficult for the staff to locate you. If you had suffered an injury on landing, this would have delayed care from a first responder.

All of the unusual circumstances aside, students typically open at 5000', and if there's any kind of upper winds, you won't be exiting or opening too close to the DZ. The bottom line is that with a radio the instructor could give you a heads up like, 'Hey Skipy, the airport is behind you. Turn around and head home'. If you happened to find the airport, your instructor always has the option to say nothing, as if you had no radio, but if you really have no radio, then saying nothing is the only option.

I think you made some pretty valid points. These are definately some "what if questions" that I would have not thought of. Now if I were to have read a thread like this before doing my AFF, I probably would have asked these questions to my instructor when I was told no to using a radio.

Speedracer~I predict that Michael Jackson will rise from the dead.
And that a giant radioactive duck will emerge from the ocean and eat Baltimore.

[skypuppy 1]

I just find it interesting that this sport seems to slowly be moving into the babysitting aspect in all areas from student to experienced. Examples, radios are mandatory, AADs are mandatory, no turns over 90, holding a fun jumper load because you don't trust them to spot through clouds, relying on GPS instead of your own spotting, etc
_______________________________________________

What are you talking about? Aads have been mandatory for students since I started jumping in 1979. Radios were common then and are still today, but from some of the posts on this thread, maybe less common than then. spotting throught clouds --- this has always been an issue -- it's up to the dzo whether he wants to risk a FAA violation, or even just use up extra fuel looking for holes. GPS -- that's more a factor of the planes and technology we use today then not trusting spotting....

7 years in sport and you're talking about the sport moving into babysitting?

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

I just find it interesting that this sport seems to slowly be moving into the babysitting aspect in all areas from student to experienced. Examples, radios are mandatory, AADs are mandatory...

Yes...interesting that we consistently move towards safer and safer training methods.


Radios for students are not mandatory in the U.S.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[ufk22 32]

Quote

I am fairly new to the sport, so I am still learning a lot and find this discussion intetesting. Did my AFF back in February and when I was gearing up to make my first jump, I asked my instructor if I was going to be on Radio......his reply was "no". Which didnt bother me due to the fact that we stood out in the landing area going over the landing pattern that I needed to fly and why. There were specific check points (3 of them) that I needed to use as a reference and at which altitudes I needed to be at over each one. If the wind changed, we were out there going over the new pattern. I feel that by him going over this numerous times and quizzing me like crazy, I felt comfortable enough that when he told me NO to the radio, it didnt bother me at all. Now if I would have had an instructor that did not really spend all that much time and being so detailed, I might have been a little bit more apprehensive about the landing pattern and landing safely when I was told no to using a radio.

So what type of communication device was used? Arrow on ground, paddles, or nothing?

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[skycamefalling 0]

Quote

Quote

I am fairly new to the sport, so I am still learning a lot and find this discussion intetesting. Did my AFF back in February and when I was gearing up to make my first jump, I asked my instructor if I was going to be on Radio......his reply was "no". Which didnt bother me due to the fact that we stood out in the landing area going over the landing pattern that I needed to fly and why. There were specific check points (3 of them) that I needed to use as a reference and at which altitudes I needed to be at over each one. If the wind changed, we were out there going over the new pattern. I feel that by him going over this numerous times and quizzing me like crazy, I felt comfortable enough that when he told me NO to the radio, it didnt bother me at all. Now if I would have had an instructor that did not really spend all that much time and being so detailed, I might have been a little bit more apprehensive about the landing pattern and landing safely when I was told no to using a radio.

So what type of communication device was used? Arrow on ground, paddles, or nothing?

Arrows would have been cool to see.......but no, there was no communication device used.

Speedracer~I predict that Michael Jackson will rise from the dead.
And that a giant radioactive duck will emerge from the ocean and eat Baltimore.

[tetra316 0]

Quote

I just find it interesting that this sport seems to slowly be moving into the babysitting aspect in all areas from student to experienced. Examples, radios are mandatory, AADs are mandatory, no turns over 90, holding a fun jumper load because you don't trust them to spot through clouds, relying on GPS instead of your own spotting, etc
_______________________________________________

What are you talking about? Aads have been mandatory for students since I started jumping in 1979. Radios were common then and are still today, but from some of the posts on this thread, maybe less common than then. spotting throught clouds --- this has always been an issue -- it's up to the dzo whether he wants to risk a FAA violation, or even just use up extra fuel looking for holes. GPS -- that's more a factor of the planes and technology we use today then not trusting spotting....

7 years in sport and you're talking about the sport moving into babysitting?

You are misinterpreting and/or twisting my words.

I'm talking about AADs for experienced jumpers. I think that should be a jumper decision. Not a dz decision. Radios were not common even a short while ago at 182 dzs. Out of four different dzs within several hours none of them used radios when I went through AFF. Spotting through clouds, you are telling me that you think it's common to bar experienced jumpers from going up because you don't trust them to spot but you will still send tandems all day? That's is messed up. Who's fault is it they can't spot? The dz. They are there to educate jumpers, so educate them to spot.

Yes I do think the sport has moved into a more 'babysitting' role. Even with 7 years in the sport I have still been to upwards of 20 dzs, from 182s to multi turbine. Simply look at all the rules that are in place today that weren't there even 5 years ago. Yes I do some are safety improvements, but I don't think all are.

[erdnarob 1]

If I had a DZ, students will have a radio but since sometimes radios fail or may not be turned on, I would also have a big red arrow on the ground indicating the direction to face at landing. Such a big arrow will be used anyway by all jumpers.
The care for students varies from one DZ to another. While you say that you have the impression that DZ's are babysitting the students, this is true at some DZs but soon or later they will have to let the grown students go. In the reality, after a while you know who is able to be cleared from ground control. There is a lot of difference in everybody's learning curve. As an instructor you have to be a good observer and...talk with the students.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.