Is having a "green" home important to you?

[councilman24 36]

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>I love toxic waste.

It's really cheap if you want some. Heck, I bet they'd give it to you for free!

Yeah, but you'd have to build appropriate storage and containment facilities.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[turtlespeed 212]

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>I love toxic waste.

It's really cheap if you want some. Heck, I bet they'd give it to you for free!

Yeah, but you'd have to build appropriate storage and containment facilities.

Nah - just send it to someone to hold it for you in China.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[Dumpster 0]

In al honesty, "green" is OK in my book as long as it's cost-effective. I think "Green should save money and be eco-friendly.

Easy Does It

[freefal 0]

One of the reasons to use USGBC's LEED system for comparison/accreditation is that a lot of the items that "monkycndo" mentioned are included in the point system used to certify a building (be it a home or a commercial building).

Sustainable design and construction does not just mean using "earth friendly" materials or piece of Energy Start rated equiment. Bigger picture things like building orientation, site development, sourcing local/regional materials, etc. can have a much larger impact on the sustainability or "greeness" of a building so they are very important to consider and that's why they're included in the LEED system.

The point mentioned above about being more marketable is definately a plus for any type of construction, but another thing to consider is that it may not be an option in the future. I can't legally design the same commercial building that I did 10 years ago due to the energy code requirements that are now in place. This trend toward more code required energy efficiency is bound to continue, so why not plan for it now.

"Ignorance is bliss" and "Patience is a virtue"... So if you're stupid and don't mind waiting around for a while, I guess you can have a pretty good life!

[TomAiello 25]

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If it was energy independent, had a graywater system, composting toilets, space for a garden, fruit trees etc I'd probably go 20% over standard price.

If it was energy and water independent, I'd probably go more than 20%.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[JohnDeere 0]

There are so many definitions for "green building". I work in residential constuction and have for the last 16 years. It can be anything from energystar rated to disturbing as little natural vegitation and not using any building products that are shipped more than 500 miles. It all depends on the typical people you are selling to. What price range houses are we talking about? 200,000 or 2,000,000? On the lower end you will not be able to show value to the average home buyer if you do more than energy star rated. Such as foam insulation, tankles hot water heater, plywood boards instead of foam or hardy board, also radiant barrier, the propper windows for the ara you live in, and proper attic insulation. All of those are not required for a energy star rating but are a good 1st step for energy effency. It can go from there to the star's with ideas. I personally dont give a shit about a green home other than the saveings in energy cost, but i will leave it at that so it doesnt end up a SC topic

Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

[billvon 2,406]

> I think "Green should save money and be eco-friendly.

One challenge there is trying to install a system that will last for 30 years and trying to predict what prices will do in 30 years. It's a safe bet here, for example, that water prices will go up, but energy prices are a little less certain (although they will _probably_ go up.)

So that 18 year payback time might turn out to be 10 years, but probably not 25 years.

[skymama 35]

My Dad has been a Broker/CBC in Fl for 40 years, so he does know a thing or two about the products involved. We build custom homes from about $850,000-$2.5 million. So, he pretty much knows what is involved with it, he was just wondering if the average consumer today sees green building as something that is important to them, and thus worth the increase in price.

She is Da Man, and you better not mess with Da Man,
because she will lay some keepdown on you faster than, well, really fast. ~Billvon

[JohnDeere 0]

I know the Texas market is completely different than there so what size houses and lots are we talking about? In those price ranges i would think you could def. build a house and advertise it tords energy eff. but i personally would not advertise it as "green". People that want lower bills will like it and people that think green will also. But that is just me, i dont like people advertising things as green because i personally dont beleive in that. We are in a completely diff. market and around here what sells is lower energy bills.

Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

[happythoughts 0]

I don't know if this would classify as "green", but on
my last house, I did a lot of stuff to save energy.

- Peak vent running 50 ft down the middle of the roof.
- Insulation - over 12 inches of blown-in insulation.
- Soffit. The 4' front deck was perforated to allow cool air to go up into the attic.
- Insulated and tinted glass.
- Ceiling fans in ever room (2 in the living room
and game room).

- Upper floor covered decks, 4' in front, 10' in back.

5000 sq ft, but it used less electricity than the
previous 2000 sq ft house.

[MikeForsythe 0]

Yes, to me it was and is important. For me it was a personal choice of helping the environment, reducing monthly cost and of course having the latest and greatest.

My house is 6,300' under roof, 5BR/4B and my electric bill last month was $68.

I designed and built the house my self and this is some of what I did to make it energy efficient.

1. Solar water heat
2. 10kw PV solar grid tie system
3. 22 SEER A/C units with zone control
4. Lite Touch home automation system
5. Double pane nitrogen filled windows
6. 3' overhangs
7. Brick over block with 1" air gap
8. R-60 in the attic with radiant barrier and ridge vent
9. Florescent and LED lighting where possible

Where I think you can offer the most bang for the $$$ to your customers as far as energy efficiency, is solar water heat, high SEER zone A/C and florescent/LED lighting where possible.

Time and pressure will always show you who a person really is!

[Dumpster 0]

I've worked a little with contractors that are involved in the whole "green" /energy-effciency movement. Seems some consumers get the two mixed up, and another one of the challenges they are finding is when people over-insulate, etc. and wind up with mold and/or effciency problems. Retrofitting has proven to be a real headache, especially when Joe Homeowner adds 18" of insulation to his attic and winds up with mold all over the place inside the house, condensation issues, etc.

Easy Does It

[DJL 232]

My girlfriend's design build firm in Vermont and upstate NY http://talkbydesign.com/ designs green homes. I'm their mechanical consultant. Their focus is to make the house efficient and high quality. There's no point in making the house green if it's not going to last. The emphasis is getting away from the classic "buy the biggest house you can afford" and instead buying the best house you can afford.

It's important to me to preserve the environment but it has to be either beause of my concience, because it's cost effective, or because it's the law.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[BillyVance 34]

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I've worked a little with contractors that are involved in the whole "green" /energy-effciency movement. Seems some consumers get the two mixed up, and another one of the challenges they are finding is when people over-insulate, etc. and wind up with mold and/or effciency problems. Retrofitting has proven to be a real headache, especially when Joe Homeowner adds 18" of insulation to his attic and winds up with mold all over the place inside the house, condensation issues, etc.

How does over-insulating do that?

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[rehmwa 2]

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If I were a builder, I would focus on technologies that reduce operating costs, since those are features that can be justified to potential buyers regardless of their ideology w/r/t the environment.

that's a much more effective approach for a home buyer than just trying to appeal to the self righteous "enviro-smug"

and it's real, compared to the other

the nutjobs (5%) are doing it anyway, you need to appeal to the practical home buyer (80%) who want a REAL reason to do this

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Dumpster 0]

Over insulating an attic can bring the temp in the space above the attic down to the dew point and allow moisture to build up and cause damage. So, special attention has to paid to keep the amount of ventilation in line with the amount of insulation.

I.E. - Joe Home owner adds a bunch of insulation, nice and thick, and looks forward to smaller heating and cooling bills. He inadvertantly covers up the vents in the eaves - Now moist air builds up in a cooler attic space, and condenses in the colder spots - the eaves. Mold appears inside the house, up near the ceiling, around the perimiter. The jacket has to "breathe" - Just like your winter coat.

Attention has to be paid to the performance of the HVAC system to keep it in line with the performance of the "envelope" - or building. It doesn't make good sense to have a hi-performace HVAC system with a poorly performing structure, and vice-versa.

Easy Does It

[BillyVance 34]

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Over insulating an attic can bring the temp in the space above the attic down to the dew point and allow moisture to build up and cause damage. So, special attention has to paid to keep the amount of ventilation in line with the amount of insulation.

I.E. - Joe Home owner adds a bunch of insulation, nice and thick, and looks forward to smaller heating and cooling bills. He inadvertantly covers up the vents in the eaves - Now moist air builds up in a cooler attic space, and condenses in the colder spots - the eaves. Mold appears inside the house, up near the ceiling, around the perimiter. The jacket has to "breathe" - Just like your winter coat.

Attention has to be paid to the performance of the HVAC system to keep it in line with the performance of the "envelope" - or building. It doesn't make good sense to have a hi-performace HVAC system with a poorly performing structure, and vice-versa.

Oh, I see... so could you do it right adding the extra insulation, as long as it didn't cover the ventilation outlets?

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[Dumpster 0]

Right. Although with additional insualtion, you may need additional ventilation. There some guidelines published somewhere, some research would be prudent.

Easy Does It

[billvon 2,406]

>How does over-insulating do that?

1) Over-insulating (with vapor barriers in the wrong place) can result in warm moist air from inside the house condensing in the insulation, which is always going to be cold on the outside. That's a recipe for mold.

2) Over-sealing a house can cause problems as well. The attic has to be well ventilated to ensure that moisture doesn't build up there (hot air rises) and there has to be enough air exchange to keep humidity inside at a reasonable level. Air exchangers are a good way to get air in and out of a house without having to open a window or anything.

[Dumpster 0]

An even better answer than mine! There ya go

Easy Does It

[DJL 232]

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Over insulating an attic can bring the temp in the space above the attic down to the dew point and allow moisture to build up and cause damage. So, special attention has to paid to keep the amount of ventilation in line with the amount of insulation.

I.E. - Joe Home owner adds a bunch of insulation, nice and thick, and looks forward to smaller heating and cooling bills. He inadvertantly covers up the vents in the eaves - Now moist air builds up in a cooler attic space, and condenses in the colder spots - the eaves. Mold appears inside the house, up near the ceiling, around the perimiter. The jacket has to "breathe" - Just like your winter coat.

Attention has to be paid to the performance of the HVAC system to keep it in line with the performance of the "envelope" - or building. It doesn't make good sense to have a hi-performace HVAC system with a poorly performing structure, and vice-versa.

Oh, I see... so could you do it right adding the extra insulation, as long as it didn't cover the ventilation outlets?

No. There's more to it than that.

First you need to understand how your individual attic and house works as far as ventilation and vapor/moisture control go. I emphasize YOUR. In this example attic which is some derivation of a gabled roof there is a location for air to enter and to exit. The reason for this (concerning summer season) is that heat can build up in the attic and add heat to the occupied space through the ceiling. That's why you have some combination of air inlets and outlets between the attic and outdoors or even a mechanically exhausted attic. This is independent of the occupied envelope (space within the floors, walls, ceiling) and it needs to be allowed to function properly. The ceiling in this example is what defines the barrier between the attic/outdoors and the occupied space. This is where your insulation must be. There also MUST be vapor control within the ceiling/insulation construction. This is very often ignored.

Dumpster could you clarify what you said about insulating an attic? If you're talking about insulating the ceiling against the attic then you're not affecting the temperature in the attic. I assume you're talking about adding insulation on the underside of the roof deck inside of the attic?

I'm purposefully leaving out items that relate to the location of the vapor/air barriers because it's different by latitude. For example, read this: Dumb things to do in the South. It talks about moisture control in humid climates.

Next up, the mechanical system; it has to be designed for the load and the most important thing is it's ability to dehumidify the air. If the equipment is oversized then it will cool the air without removing the proper amount of moisture. This is difficult to do in a residential setting because most equipment that you're willing to buy has no humidity control. Think of it this way, you size your equipment based on the peak load. You're only hitting that peak load in certain parts of the year. The rest of the time you're in a part-load condition. The solution is to either undersize the equipment so that it dehumidifies in more conditions or buy equipment with dehumidification capabilities. These capabilities are either in the form of fan speed control which reduces the fan speed so that more vapor condenses on the coil, or in refrigeration flow or temperature control.

I always have people asking me to design an efficient system and that their willing to pay for it. Well, 25% of your energy loss is through an improperly designed building envelope. This by far exceeds any improvement I can make.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[DJL 232]

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Right. Although with additional insualtion, you may need additional ventilation. There some guidelines published somewhere, some research would be prudent.

Could you clarify this? I'm not sure why additional ventilation is needed or where it's needed.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[Dumpster 0]

Any attic (or other dead space, including the crawlspace if any - ) needs ventilation, a passage for fresh air to get in and out. In most homes, this will be in the eaves and out at or near the peak of the roof. (heat rises) This creates a natural circulation. What often happens, is folks add insulation and choke off the vents in the eaves.

I've lived in the north most all my life, so we primarily focus on heating.

Easy Does It

[DJL 232]

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Any attic (or other dead space, including the crawlspace if any - ) needs ventilation, a passage for fresh air to get in and out. In most homes, this will be in the eaves and out at or near the peak of the roof. (heat rises) This creates a natural circulation. What often happens, is folks add insulation and choke off the vents in the eaves.

I've lived in the north most all my life, so we primarily focus on heating.

Ok, so you were saying that if they start to cover the inlets then they need to add others to maintain the 300:1 ratio of attic area to vent area and the 60:40 ratio between inlets and outlets. Thanks for clarifying that.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[BillyVance 34]

I live in the south where it can get humid at times. This weekend will have highs in the 80's and lows in the 50's. My house has the vents along the eaves and the roof crest vent, as well as the screened vents at the ends on the wall under the roof crests. It gets hot in the attic during the day from late spring to early fall. Should there be a dehumidifier or exhaust fan installed up there? Note that I have not seen any mold or mildew damage up there, and we had a new roof installed last fall.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban