frenchyflyer 0 #1 August 30, 2005 The French Parachutist Association (FFP) issued the following security notice: http://www.ffp.asso.fr/CatTechnique/FS%20JAVELIN%20ODYSSEY.pdf That means that all Javelin Odyssey are grounded in France until the following test is performed by a rigger: pop the reserve and close it back. It also means that the packing cycle for J.O. is reduced back to 6 months (in France the reserve packing cycle had recently been increased to 1 year). I cannot find any info about this problem anywhere else than in France, does someone know whether Sunpath is investigating or even aware of this? Here's a rough summary (excuse my english): While about to repack a Javelin Odyssey rig, the rigger experienced the following malfunction (on the ground): The spring-loaded pilot chute failed to clear the rig, the top of the pilot chute was stuck with the lower reserve flap while the base of the spring remained pushed against the reserve pack job. After manually pulling out the pilot chute, it separated from the lower reserve flap in 2-3 seconds. The rigger then noticed that the inside of the flap was a bit sticky. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
outlawphx 1 #2 August 30, 2005 QuoteThe rigger then noticed that the inside of the flap was a bit sticky. Umm.... Who poured beer on their reserve? It seems like the sticky reserve flap would be the culprit, so I don't see how they are grounding all Odysseys. They might as well ground all rigs to check for stick reserve flaps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GTAVercetti 0 #3 August 30, 2005 France. Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydog 2 #4 August 30, 2005 QuoteFrance. What's that supposed to mean? Getting informed of safety issues for US made (British owned) kit isn't the time for xenophobia. No wonder people hesitate to post, with replies like yours....... BrynJourney not destination..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggermick 6 #5 August 30, 2005 QuoteQuoteThe rigger then noticed that the inside of the flap was a bit sticky. Umm.... Who poured beer on their reserve? It seems like the sticky reserve flap would be the culprit, so I don't see how they are grounding all Odysseys. They might as well ground all rigs to check for stick reserve flaps. Could be a bad batch of fabric. Sometimes the coating(s) that is/ are applied to the front and rear of the fabric are the wrong type or an odd mix from the factory. Sometimes the factory or the distributor incorrectly catorgorizes a commercial grade (cheap back packs etc) fabric as a certified grade. Under the sometimes harsh conditions of parachuting, lesser grade fabrics (and more importantly their backings) can become compromised and fail or become sticky etc. Sunpath, through it's critical item tracability process will be able to trace the fabric used on the offending flap(s) via the rigs S/N back to the roll it came from. From there, back to the distributor, back to the manufacturer and and hopefully what if anything went wrong. Knowing which roll the fabric came from will enable them to trace each and every rig that is affected and if necessary take corrective action. Or it could just be beer on the flap! It should however be investigated throughly. Mick. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
adamUK 3 #6 August 30, 2005 Yeah but Bryn, you have a wings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #7 August 30, 2005 Mick, I believe that the rig was probably packed the old original way (circa 1989-1994)with half of the P/C fabric at the top and the other half at the bottom. I have seen riggers stuffing the top half of the fabric under the Last flap and the the top of the side flaps. The fabric can migrate futher under the top on the two side flaps, thus locking down the top half of the P/C. I can remember at least three times seeing a pilot chute "hang" like that from other riggers that did not know any better. Following the latest packing instructions will/should prevent that from occuring. MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GTAVercetti 0 #8 August 30, 2005 QuoteQuoteFrance. What's that supposed to mean? Getting informed of safety issues for US made (British owned) kit isn't the time for xenophobia. No wonder people hesitate to post, with replies like yours....... Bryn Do you understand what means? Everyone definitely hesitates to post on this board. No. Really. I'm serious. Or am I? If they want to ground every rig, fine, but a sticky residue seems to indicate a spill of some kind to me. And it was just one rig (I don't read french so I am relying on what was posted above), that does not seem to warrrant an entire country grounding.Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #9 August 30, 2005 QuoteIf they want to ground every rig, fine, but a sticky residue seems to indicate a spill of some kind to me. Oh well. Thats why there are riggers. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #10 August 30, 2005 QuoteSunpath, through it's critical item tracability process will be able to trace the fabric used on the offending flap(s) via the rigs S/N back to the roll it came from. From there, back to the distributor, back to the manufacturer and and hopefully what if anything went wrong. Knowing which roll the fabric came from will enable them to trace each and every rig that is affected and if necessary take corrective action. Mick, And that is what TSO is really all about. Traceability SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
frenchyflyer 0 #11 August 31, 2005 QuoteIf they want to ground every rig, fine, but a sticky residue seems to indicate a spill of some kind to me. And it was just one rig (I don't read french so I am relying on what was posted above), that does not seem to warrrant an entire country grounding. That was also my first reaction: "The flap was sticky? Then the owner must have stored its rig (manufactured in 2002) in less than perfect (humid, cold?) conditions" Especially because I have 2 Odysseys, one manufactured in 2001 and one in 2005 and have had no problems with either (I'm French and not British by the way). Then with the number of Odysseys being used around the world I found it hard to believe that such a problem could happen without being detected earlier. Then after discussing with some riggers, I have been told exactly what riggermick explained, i.e. that it has already happened in the past that some coating would not meet the specs and become sticky under specific conditions. I guess this is why the French Association has been kind of overzealous and has decided to force the inspection of ALL the Odysseys until Sunpath determines which (if any) serial numbers are impacted. By posting this, I just wanted to check whether anything similar had been detected in the US; and I also wanted people/rigger handling Odyssey manufactured around the time of this one (SN 02028 DOM July 2002) to have a closer look to any possible signs of deterioration of the flap coating... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #12 August 31, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuoteFrance. If they want to ground every rig, fine, but a sticky residue seems to indicate a spill of some kind to me. And it was just one rig (I don't read french so I am relying on what was posted above), that does not seem to warrrant an entire country grounding. and that would be based on your years of experience as a rigger would it, or purhaps you are a textiles expert oh forgot the You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 563 #13 September 1, 2005 I suspect that the problem is caused by sub standard urethane coating on the inside of the reserve bottom flap. Urethane coatings help a bit with parachute container durability, but their main function is to make Cordura backpacks water-resistant. Given the wrong combination of storage conditions (heat, pressure, temperature, certain kinds of dust, etc.) it is possible for urethane to stick to the top of the reserve pilot chute. Quality control is difficult on the urethane used to waterproof Cordura fabric. That is one reason the best (ultra-light) tents are made of the same silicone-coated nylon fabric as the best ZP main canopies. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites frenchyflyer 0 #14 September 2, 2005 Thanks Rob! Now that sounds quite impossible for Sunpath to track this problem down... Too bad cause I'll have to repack my containers every 6 months instead of 1 year (ok , ok that's still better than your 120 days over there )... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggermick 6 #15 September 2, 2005 QuoteThanks Rob! Now that sounds quite impossible for Sunpath to track this problem down... Read the thread a dozen or so post's up from here, it explains how Sunpath can quite easily track the problem, if indeed there is one. Then again it may be a one off. Mick. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites frenchyflyer 0 #16 September 2, 2005 Quote Read the thread a dozen or so post's up from here, it explains how Sunpath can quite easily track the problem, if indeed there is one. Then again it may be a one off. Mick. Yup I had read about the traceability stuff, my remark was more about the conditions that led to the "melting" of the coating, i.e. Sunpath would first have to get hold of a sample from the same roll that was used for the faulty one, and try to reproduce the behaviour; if they do that while another sample does not "melt" then ok, they have identified a faulty roll. I was just skeptical about their ability to reproduce it. That leads me to the following question: does (or should) every manufacturer keep a sample of each roll that they used to build their rigs? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggermick 6 #17 September 2, 2005 That leads me to the following question: does (or should) every manufacturer keep a sample of each roll that they used to build their rigs? No, they don't keep samples of every roll they get in. In a couple of years you'd end up with a warehouse full of samples. TSO holders are required to batch test materials periodically. The time interval is established by the manufacturer when the TSO authorization is sought. Critical item traceability will track down any sub-standard materials, it may take a little while. With the exception of a catastrophic failure a loose rule of thumb that can be used is as follows: One incident is an anomaly two incidents is a coincidence and three incidents is a trend. Using this as a base line is generally a good place to start. Mick. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 3 #18 September 2, 2005 Someone is going to ask. QuoteMain Entry: anom·a·ly Pronunciation: &-'nä-m&-lE Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural -lies 1 : the angular distance of a planet from its perihelion as seen from the sun 2 : deviation from the common rule : IRREGULARITY 3 : something different, abnormal, peculiar, or not easily classified SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggermick 6 #19 September 3, 2005 3 : something different, abnormal, peculiar, or not easily classified. Boy doesn't just about describe everyone here, self included. Mick. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 3 #20 September 3, 2005 SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ripcord4 0 #21 September 4, 2005 Would not the French grounding of the Odyssey fall into the category of better safe than sorry? As in "let's keep an eye on this until we find out what, if anything is wrong"? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites frenchyflyer 0 #22 September 5, 2005 Exactly, the idea was probably to have all the Odysseys used in France scrutinized to check whether any other anomaly could be detected, and that's also probably the reason why the repack cycle is back to 6 months: to have riggers examine the coating more frequently. The only thing that I would have done differently is that I would have replaced a whole packing by just the opening of the reserve, checking of the coating and reclosing - leaving the actual full packing cycle of one year. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites frenchyflyer 0 #23 November 16, 2005 Hey there, popping up this thread because I heard some rumour about the fact that the reserve pilot chute was glued intentionally by someone else? Anyone has any info about this? The good thing coming from that is that we would be back to a 1 year packing cycle in France... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites frenchyflyer 0 #24 December 16, 2005 Hi all, The end of the story is now here: Sunpath Service Bulletin SPSB004 The FFP (French equivalent of USPA) wasn't being overzealous after all... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ernokaikkonen 0 #25 December 16, 2005 QuoteThe FFP (French equivalent of USPA) wasn't being overzealous after all... No, but their handling of the situation could've been better. Basically all that was known outside of France was that "Some rigger found a stuck pilot chute and now all Odysseys are grounded". I even heard that Sun Path only found out about this when somebody called them asking "Hey, what's up with the grounding in France?" when Sun Path hadn't heard anything about the incident yet... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
riggerrob 563 #13 September 1, 2005 I suspect that the problem is caused by sub standard urethane coating on the inside of the reserve bottom flap. Urethane coatings help a bit with parachute container durability, but their main function is to make Cordura backpacks water-resistant. Given the wrong combination of storage conditions (heat, pressure, temperature, certain kinds of dust, etc.) it is possible for urethane to stick to the top of the reserve pilot chute. Quality control is difficult on the urethane used to waterproof Cordura fabric. That is one reason the best (ultra-light) tents are made of the same silicone-coated nylon fabric as the best ZP main canopies. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
frenchyflyer 0 #14 September 2, 2005 Thanks Rob! Now that sounds quite impossible for Sunpath to track this problem down... Too bad cause I'll have to repack my containers every 6 months instead of 1 year (ok , ok that's still better than your 120 days over there )... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggermick 6 #15 September 2, 2005 QuoteThanks Rob! Now that sounds quite impossible for Sunpath to track this problem down... Read the thread a dozen or so post's up from here, it explains how Sunpath can quite easily track the problem, if indeed there is one. Then again it may be a one off. Mick. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites frenchyflyer 0 #16 September 2, 2005 Quote Read the thread a dozen or so post's up from here, it explains how Sunpath can quite easily track the problem, if indeed there is one. Then again it may be a one off. Mick. Yup I had read about the traceability stuff, my remark was more about the conditions that led to the "melting" of the coating, i.e. Sunpath would first have to get hold of a sample from the same roll that was used for the faulty one, and try to reproduce the behaviour; if they do that while another sample does not "melt" then ok, they have identified a faulty roll. I was just skeptical about their ability to reproduce it. That leads me to the following question: does (or should) every manufacturer keep a sample of each roll that they used to build their rigs? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggermick 6 #17 September 2, 2005 That leads me to the following question: does (or should) every manufacturer keep a sample of each roll that they used to build their rigs? No, they don't keep samples of every roll they get in. In a couple of years you'd end up with a warehouse full of samples. TSO holders are required to batch test materials periodically. The time interval is established by the manufacturer when the TSO authorization is sought. Critical item traceability will track down any sub-standard materials, it may take a little while. With the exception of a catastrophic failure a loose rule of thumb that can be used is as follows: One incident is an anomaly two incidents is a coincidence and three incidents is a trend. Using this as a base line is generally a good place to start. Mick. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
frenchyflyer 0 #16 September 2, 2005 Quote Read the thread a dozen or so post's up from here, it explains how Sunpath can quite easily track the problem, if indeed there is one. Then again it may be a one off. Mick. Yup I had read about the traceability stuff, my remark was more about the conditions that led to the "melting" of the coating, i.e. Sunpath would first have to get hold of a sample from the same roll that was used for the faulty one, and try to reproduce the behaviour; if they do that while another sample does not "melt" then ok, they have identified a faulty roll. I was just skeptical about their ability to reproduce it. That leads me to the following question: does (or should) every manufacturer keep a sample of each roll that they used to build their rigs? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggermick 6 #17 September 2, 2005 That leads me to the following question: does (or should) every manufacturer keep a sample of each roll that they used to build their rigs? No, they don't keep samples of every roll they get in. In a couple of years you'd end up with a warehouse full of samples. TSO holders are required to batch test materials periodically. The time interval is established by the manufacturer when the TSO authorization is sought. Critical item traceability will track down any sub-standard materials, it may take a little while. With the exception of a catastrophic failure a loose rule of thumb that can be used is as follows: One incident is an anomaly two incidents is a coincidence and three incidents is a trend. Using this as a base line is generally a good place to start. Mick. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #18 September 2, 2005 Someone is going to ask. QuoteMain Entry: anom·a·ly Pronunciation: &-'nä-m&-lE Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural -lies 1 : the angular distance of a planet from its perihelion as seen from the sun 2 : deviation from the common rule : IRREGULARITY 3 : something different, abnormal, peculiar, or not easily classified SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggermick 6 #19 September 3, 2005 3 : something different, abnormal, peculiar, or not easily classified. Boy doesn't just about describe everyone here, self included. Mick. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #20 September 3, 2005 SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ripcord4 0 #21 September 4, 2005 Would not the French grounding of the Odyssey fall into the category of better safe than sorry? As in "let's keep an eye on this until we find out what, if anything is wrong"? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
frenchyflyer 0 #22 September 5, 2005 Exactly, the idea was probably to have all the Odysseys used in France scrutinized to check whether any other anomaly could be detected, and that's also probably the reason why the repack cycle is back to 6 months: to have riggers examine the coating more frequently. The only thing that I would have done differently is that I would have replaced a whole packing by just the opening of the reserve, checking of the coating and reclosing - leaving the actual full packing cycle of one year. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
frenchyflyer 0 #23 November 16, 2005 Hey there, popping up this thread because I heard some rumour about the fact that the reserve pilot chute was glued intentionally by someone else? Anyone has any info about this? The good thing coming from that is that we would be back to a 1 year packing cycle in France... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
frenchyflyer 0 #24 December 16, 2005 Hi all, The end of the story is now here: Sunpath Service Bulletin SPSB004 The FFP (French equivalent of USPA) wasn't being overzealous after all... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ernokaikkonen 0 #25 December 16, 2005 QuoteThe FFP (French equivalent of USPA) wasn't being overzealous after all... No, but their handling of the situation could've been better. Basically all that was known outside of France was that "Some rigger found a stuck pilot chute and now all Odysseys are grounded". I even heard that Sun Path only found out about this when somebody called them asking "Hey, what's up with the grounding in France?" when Sun Path hadn't heard anything about the incident yet... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
