Tonto 1 #26 August 30, 2005 Exposed is visible. "fully covered....offers some.." Are you happy with that? I did a season in the British West Indies. My non Stainless hardware was perfect, but when I got home and got my reserve repacked - the rust from the spring in the reserve PC had damaged the fabric and the PC needed to be replaced. Stainless is bling bling. Nothing more. In 20+ years of non stainless use - I've never seen a spot of rust on any of my hardware, which I've maintained simply by wiping with a dry cloth after jumping near the coast in the past. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 136 #27 August 30, 2005 QuoteTrue, but i was thinking purely in terms of what is exposed to the salty sea air. My spring and pin are both fully covered which offers some form of anti corrosion protection, whereas rings are completely exposed. rings are exposed, but can dry also easier, whereas pins and spring can remain in a more humid environment...scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Newbie 0 #28 August 30, 2005 QuoteExposed is visible. "fully covered....offers some.." Are you happy with that? I did a season in the British West Indies. My non Stainless hardware was perfect, but when I got home and got my reserve repacked - the rust from the spring in the reserve PC had damaged the fabric and the PC needed to be replaced. Stainless is bling bling. Nothing more. In 20+ years of non stainless use - I've never seen a spot of rust on any of my hardware, which I've maintained simply by wiping with a dry cloth after jumping near the coast in the past. t thanks for the info. PS how comes your non stainless hardware was ok, but the PC spring had been corroded? (which i assume was also non stainless? Is it because moisture can build up and sit around the spring, in the fabric etc?) "Skydiving is a door" Happythoughts Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #29 August 30, 2005 There is no untreated hardware. It's either stainless (or stain resistant) or nickle plated, or cadmium (sp?) plated? Your reserve PC spring is "raw" in that it's not treated or plated at all. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Newbie 0 #30 August 30, 2005 Gotcha, thanks "Skydiving is a door" Happythoughts Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RMURRAY 1 #31 August 30, 2005 QuoteExposed is visible. "fully covered....offers some.." Are you happy with that? I did a season in the British West Indies. My non Stainless hardware was perfect, but when I got home and got my reserve repacked - the rust from the spring in the reserve PC had damaged the fabric and the PC needed to be replaced. Stainless is bling bling. Nothing more. In 20+ years of non stainless use - I've never seen a spot of rust on any of my hardware, which I've maintained simply by wiping with a dry cloth after jumping near the coast in the past. t I agree completely but I have found out this week that electroless nickel 3-rings are not "working out". it is not robust enough. Cad plated (used for years but which is being phased out due to environmental issues) is OK. When you are unable to get Cad plated 3-rings the only other choice will be stainless. for hip rings etc I'll bet electroless nickel is fine (no high pressure contact like 3-rings). just my opinion and I am not a rigger. rm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RMURRAY 1 #32 August 30, 2005 QuoteThere is no untreated hardware. It's either stainless (or stain resistant) or nickle plated, or cadmium (sp?) plated? Your reserve PC spring is "raw" in that it's not treated or plated at all. t I guess these reserve PC springs were designed years ago but I wonder why they don't used pre-coated spring wire. In automotive design, we use it all the time. It is fairly new to NA. http://www.interwiregroup.com/iwp_bezinal.html rm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #33 August 30, 2005 So I guess the question "Do you REALLY need stainless steel hardware?" can be answered in 2 ways then. 1. Do you REALLY need stainless steel hardware to avoid corrosion on your rig? A. No. There are Many parts of your rig more critical, and more prone to corrosion than the hardware. 2. Do you REALLY need stainless steel hardware? A. Yes. All other types of hardware are either inferior (nickle plating) or being phased out (Cad plating) Personally, I think stainless steel lacks several of the qualities that we require in the applications we use it for. Legstraps slip - yes, I know people will say this has been solved but as recently as last year a major manufacturer was having issues with slipping legstraps in stainless steel. I like a little more than 200 days incident free operation as a guide before I follow that path. Secondly it's low friction charecteristics do measurably increase the cutaway forces in a high load malfunction - and we know this is an issue, or else why are some manufacturers "redesigning" the three rings which performed flawlessly for decades in the pre stainless skydiving world? Yes, I'm old, and grumpy, and anti stainless steel. I'll have to live with that. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggermick 6 #34 August 30, 2005 QuoteThere is no untreated hardware. It's either stainless (or stain resistant) or nickle plated, or cadmium (sp?) plated? Your reserve PC spring is "raw" in that it's not treated or plated at all. t All of the reserve pilot chute springs in the Reflex and The talon/ Voodoo are powder coated to alleviate this problem. Mick. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #35 August 30, 2005 Quotestainless steel... it's low friction charecteristics do measurably increase the cutaway forces in a high load malfunction I don't understand that part. Could you explain to me how lower friction on stainless steel rings causes higher cutaway forces? It seems like it should be less force rather than more... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kris 0 #36 August 30, 2005 QuoteI don't understand that part. Could you explain to me how lower friction on stainless steel rings causes higher cutaway forces? It seems like it should be less force rather than more... It has to do with how the 3-ring system works. It relies on a bit of inherent friction to work efficiently. Bill Booth on 3-ring FrictionSky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #37 August 30, 2005 Bill Booth says it better than I ever could... tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 60 #38 August 30, 2005 QuoteI don't understand that part. Could you explain to me how lower friction on stainless steel rings causes higher cutaway forces? It seems like it should be less force rather than more... The more the rings "rub" agains each other, the less force is transmitted to the white loop. I asked this queston here: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=126113#126113 and Bill Booth answered here: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=126465#126465 Bart Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,471 #39 August 30, 2005 >Could you explain to me how lower friction on stainless steel >rings causes higher cutaway forces? The lower friction causes a more efficient transmission of cutaway forces from the harness ring to the white loop. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RossDagley 0 #40 August 31, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuoteBy the way, it is corrosion resistant steel, not stainless. Are you suggesting that all those manufacturers of container/harnesses are not using "truth in advertising" when all of their brochures say we have the choice of having Stainless Steel hardware? No, I just know that it can corrode. CRES is a std abbreviation for corrosion resistant. I notice RWS are 'advertising' their (optional) stainless steel as rust proof. I'd not really given it much thought - is stainless NOT rust proof then? (genuine question, I dont' know *anything* about the type of metal used on a rig - I just know its shiny. I couldn't even tell you what the metal on MY rig is (except its 'darker' than most polished lookin stuff I've seen!) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #41 August 31, 2005 QuoteQuoteI don't understand that part. Could you explain to me how lower friction on stainless steel rings causes higher cutaway forces? It seems like it should be less force rather than more... It has to do with how the 3-ring system works. It relies on a bit of inherent friction to work efficiently. Bill Booth on 3-ring Friction From Bill Booth: "the smoother stainless steel surface lowers their 'efficiency' by only about 5%." Thanks everyone for enlightening me about this aspect of stainless steel 3-rings. You made me think of them in a new way , and taught me something I didn't know before. It sounds like a 5% increase in pull force at the loop isn't too much to worry about. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverton 0 #42 September 5, 2005 Some years ago all hardware was made out of steel with a cadmium plating as corrosion protection. I try not to become too technical but cadmium gives a corrosion protection even if the layer is damaged upto the bare material (sacrificial protection). Unfortunately cadmium is very bad for living people. So the use of cadmium is very restricted (Cadmium plating is only allowed is some safety-critical aerospace applications) To solve this problem you can consider 3 options: - Zinc plating -> Not really an option because the layer itself decrades very quickly - Electroless nickel -> Good corrosion protection, only No corrosion protection when the layer is damaged (No sacrificial protection) - CRES -> Corrosion resistant steel. No protective layer, just make the whole part of a corrosion resistant material. 20 Years ago this steel was not strong/tough enough. Due to the material development last decades high strength corrosion resistant steels like 15-5-Ph or 17-4Ph are available at a reasonable price nowadays. With every new design there might pop-up little problems, but after these problems have been solved this might be the best solution. If you want some more specific info about cadmium replacement please send me an e-mail or PM. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit, Especially when you are jumping a sport rig Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
