Cypres - izz

[paulledden 0]

I can buy an electric drill for £15/$27, a DVD player for £45/$81 but a Cypress will cost me £850/$1530.

After twenty years of jumping without one, I find that my choice of DZ is shrinking as more and more operators and clubs are making AAD's compulsory.

I am about to surrender but the price of these things is ridiculous. I appreciate development costs have to be recouped etc but these prices appear to represent the worst aspects of holding a monopoly on a product. The competition doesn't appear to be able to match Airtec's reputation and so everyone buys the Cypres.

How about a little customer power here. Any suggestions? Airtec are extracting the urine here!

The probability of being observed is directly proportionate to the stupidity of your actions at the time!

[darkwing 4]

Competition from Vigil (and any others) will help keep pressure on the price, but honestly, an AAD is vastly more complex, with a vastly smaller market than drills and DVD players. Suppose R&D cost $10 million for each. Think about the number of units you can spread that R&D cost over. Also, failures on drills and DVDs aren't a big deal.

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[yarpos 4]

maybe a little reality check ?

what is the world market for electric drills and DVDs?

what is the quality and reliability required? or maybe better put; what are the consequences of the item failing?

apply same questions to AAD's

if the sport has decided that these things are needed then thats the price we pay. A little competition is healthy but dont expect a big drop in price if you want these guys to stay in business and provide ongoing support

I'm not a great fan either by the way, but I think overall they are a force for goodness and expect it to become the norm.

Steve

regards, Steve
the older I get...the better I was

[mr2mk1g 10]

Part of it is the standard of reliability required and thus everything about the product must be made to very high tolerances.

The other part is quite simply volume. Hundreds of thousands of that drill roll off an assembly line. Maybe millions of DVD players. Volume drives unit price down - I wonder if Cypres has even hit 100,000 units yet over it's total production so far?

And again, at the end of the day if a DVD player doesn't work, you simply return it to the shop for a refund.

I wonder how many of us kept the receipts to our asses.

[btucker 0]

It will increase the value of your rig. Infact try selling a rig without a moden AAD!

Blue Dreams Benno

[paulledden 0]

Some valid points. I'm not anti-Cypres, I am anti the price of them.

Remember the first rule of the entrepeneur.........don't sell it for what it's worth,sell it for what you can get for it. The latter seems very much in evidence here!!!

The probability of being observed is directly proportionate to the stupidity of your actions at the time!

[councilman24 36]

When they say made in China like your DVD player, they'll be $89.95. And they'll break every year.

Bill Booth (Hi Bill) used to bemoan the fact that he couldn't sell a H/C for as much as Fury or Coe could sell a canopy. Well, he pretty much can now. That was his goal.

They've obviously found their price point. We'll never know how many people aren't skydiving because of the Cypres price, let alone the price of the rest of the gear.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[riggerrob 561]

Competition from Astra, Vigil, Argus, MPAAD, etc. is starting to affect prices.
Your simplest dodge is to buy a 10-year-old Cpres for a couple of hundred dollars (US$200.).

[Dougiefresh 0]

Cost is no issue if I ever need it. I'm gonna pay whatever the man is asking for the most proven device out there.

Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. --Douglas Adams

[audacium 0]

Hm...interesting but wrong statement.

So how do you find out what something is worth? What is the difference between what something is worth and what people are paying for? If people pay the price, then obviously it is worth that price for them, isn't it?

"Worth" is always personal and subjective. There is _no_ objective or "outside" value that determines what something is worth.

For most people, a Cypres is worth the price. These people are not stupid, they just attach a higher value to a Cypres then you obviously do.

--
Eduard

[bch7773 0]

Cypres is probably getting a sizable profit off their product... we can only guess unless we saw their financial info.

but i guess thats capitalism for you

MB 3528, RB 1182

[piisfish 135]

jumping with a DVD player might be cool, but will certainly not save your life at the end.

Jumping with a Cypres might.

Inserting a DVD inside your Cypres will give lousy images and will necessitate a revision of the Cypres.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

After twenty years of jumping without one,

Quote

How about a little customer power here. Any suggestions? Airtec are extracting the urine here!

20 years and you still don't know where slack valley is?

Quote

The competition doesn't appear to be able to match Airtec's reputation and so everyone buys the Cypres.

Hmmmm, gocha don't they? Good work Airtec!

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[paulledden 0]

Okay, I surrender.

It said dropzone.com but what it really meant was the 'Airtec Appreciation Society'.

You've converted me - I'm going to give Airtec the deeds to my house as well as insisting on paying double the current asking price. $1500 for an AAD?
It's an absolute disgrace! With the wonderful service Airtec provides, it should be at least $3000.

My 4 year old daughter can forget her new party dress. I'm giving the money to that nice man from Airtec.

Please forgive me!

The probability of being observed is directly proportionate to the stupidity of your actions at the time!

[AndyMan 7]

I don't get it.

It's not like they have a monopoly.

Stop complaining, Buy a Vigil. Or pay more for the reputation. Your choice.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[paulledden 0]

Hey Andy

I bet you're a class act in a market place! The vendors must fight over you!

Regards

Paul

PS I don't use drugs

The probability of being observed is directly proportionate to the stupidity of your actions at the time!

[Praetorian 1]

You pays you money (or not) you takes your chances. I jump one, I got it used. The people who are fans have reason and are willing to pay the price, hell I'd love a nice new Porsche for the price of a KIA . . . don't think its worth it don't buy it. But when you start a conversation about what a simple BACK UP device is worth don't get pissie when that discussion has a lot of voices who think differently then you, thats why its a disscussion

Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad
judgment.

[mjosparky 3]

Quote

Okay, I surrender.

It said dropzone.com but what it really meant was the 'Airtec Appreciation Society'.

You've converted me - I'm going to give Airtec the deeds to my house as well as insisting on paying double the current asking price. $1500 for an AAD?
It's an absolute disgrace! With the wonderful service Airtec provides, it should be at least $3000.

My 4 year old daughter can forget her new party dress. I'm giving the money to that nice man from Airtec.

Please forgive me!

Paul,

Judging from you D lic. # you have been around awhile. What did you pay for you first complete rig? What is the price of a complete rig now. Now take the price of a cypres and work back to when you bought that first rig and the price will not seem so bad.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[paulledden 0]

Jeremy

Believe me, I'm not 'pissie' - I'm laughing here! This is the first time I've raised anything on the forum - it's just great that people bother to bung their threepenny worth in!

It's good fun!

Regards

Paul

The probability of being observed is directly proportionate to the stupidity of your actions at the time!

[yarpos 4]

nah take the anti capitalism course, dont by one , search for DZs that support you, buy your daugher that party dress.........but please be conscious at pull time so you get to see it and she gets to see your admiring smile ...I bet she will look a treat

whats that credit card add say "priceless" and a spit in the ocean compared to what we spend in our lives for jumping

sincerly, another parent, Steve

regards, Steve
the older I get...the better I was

[freekflyguy 0]

Quote

After twenty years of jumping without one, I find that my choice of DZ is shrinking as more and more operators and clubs are making AAD's compulsory.

I have to say that I applaude this. I witnessed 2 Cypres saves one at Hoxter and one in Empuria. That alone makes them worth the cost in my opinion.

Quote

I am about to surrender but the price of these things is ridiculous. I appreciate development costs have to be recouped etc but these prices appear to represent the worst aspects of holding a monopoly on a product. The competition doesn't appear to be able to match Airtec's reputation and so everyone buys the Cypres.

I too used to think that a Cypres was very expensive.

I now work at the Rhine Army Parachute Centre in Bad Lipspringe, Germany. Helmut is a regular jumper here, and many Cypres test jumps have been made at the DZ.

I was fortunate enough to have a tour round the Airtec factory, which is about 30 min from the DZ. Every unit is hand built, that is in every stage of production. They have a zero defect policy and very high quality control.

The testing process that a Cypres unit undergoes prior to being released onto the market, and during servicing is extensive to say the least.

This coupled with the ammount of staff he employs to provide this, and the relativly small ammount of units in circulation. I cannot imagine that the profit margin is any more than you would find on other electrical equipment.

Helmut is well known on the DZ and I can assure you that he is not financially motivated, and does not seek a monoploly on AAD's. If he was perhaps he would have called his company Airtec Activation Devices and charged a damn sight more cash.

Infact his motives are for the safety of the sport. If you are not aware of the history behind the Cypres I would be happy to tell you.

Quote

How about a little customer power here. Any suggestions? Airtec are extracting the urine here!

You are more than welcome to purchase an AAD from a different manufacturer, there are a few on the market.

By the way, has anyone out there got any electrical equipment that has worked flawlessly for more than 12 years?

Buzz

It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice.

[stuartledden 0]

Hey Paul, your little brother here. Don't forget, I've seen your landings after 20 years of practice. You don't need a cypres, you need a fuckin' pogo stick!!!!

Don't forget to pull your stopping ropes!

[dorbie 0]

Quote

By the way, has anyone out there got any electrical equipment that has worked flawlessly for more than 12 years?

Some but mostly not, but My DVD player (actually a *lot* more complex than a cypres and a lot less critical) will self diagnose and give me an error when it is on the blink. I also don't need to send it for service regularly and can buy a new one for about the cost of a Cypres service. I have no idea how reliable an AAD is, I take a lot for granted but I don't expect it to be perfect, all my training tells me not to rely on it and for good reason. Even if the AAD works and I switch it on there have been issues with cutter/loop/container/packing combos. There may be more.

Analogies fail here. AADs require a different type of highly specialized engineering for a different market and after years of leading the way the incumbent has an enviable position.

There are huge barriers to entry in the business. Look at the post that started this. The guy has an acceptable alternative to Cypres and yet he won't even consider a Vigil. This is from a guy who wants to jump *without* an AAD?! Vigil has already had a recall increasing their overheads and has been hurt by all sorts of resistance over various issues some seemingly trivial or irrelevant. Basically if they don't clone a Cypres and do it exactly as Airtec do it people tend to use any difference against them. Even innovations are perceived by some as design flaws. Basically it's a tough crowd they're selling to. If they clone a Cypress they'd still be seen as the second choice by the detractors.

If AADs got a lot cheaper would enough people buy them? I can still buy a DVD player for thousands of dollars and it does a better job than your no brand clone. I might consider the expensive item if my life depended on it and I perceived it was better.

It is interesting that we have no information in the relative reliability of Cypres vs Vigil, we go mainly on reputation. I bought mine based on availability and reputation not on any real data about reliability if I were to fuck up, I didn't really have better information and my student rig had a cypres, not an insignificant psychological factor.