windcatcher 0 #1 February 7, 2005 Well this weekend at the dz I saw someone psycho pack a few times and though I am still learning pro pack ( almost got it), I was just wondering if there is anything significant about the 2 different types. Psycho packing looks easier for me to understand how to do ( at least I think) and maybe I'll want to learn to psycho pack...what do ya'll think? Is there anything I would need to pay more attention to going down the psycho route? I mean, flat packing makes the canopy open like what 90 degrees off heading? Psycho is just as clean as pro?? thanks, Sarah Mother to the cutest little thing in the world... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 36 #2 February 7, 2005 First, flat packing DOES NOT make a canopy open 90 degrees off heading. When finished a flat pack is a pro pack that has all the material going from side to side in s folds between line groups versus half of the fabric going to each side. Second, Psycho packing is really more Psycho bagging. The part up until you lay it on the floor is the SAME. Third, Psycho packing actually requires pulling the bridle attachment point out to the side. This might be the most disruption to the order of the pack job of any. BUT, it has not been shown to affect opening. It also requires turning the canopy 180 degrees and then turning it back the opposite way. I doubt that psycho packing is easier to understand in reality. So, if your having trouble bagging the canopy, you might want to try psycho packing, IF there is someone handy to help you learn. But, your best bet at this point is to stay with one teacher and one method. Everyone does all of these pack jobs just a little different. If you just grab whoever's handy at the DZ to show you you'll see as many different variations (minor) as people. This can be confusing when your learning. BTW, I have no opinion as to what is best. I do have a personal preference as to what I chose to do.I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beezyshaw 0 #3 February 7, 2005 As "somewhat" of an authority on psycho packing, I can tell you that they are the same pack job, only put into the bag differently. Openings are the same, but the psycho pack when done correctly is easier for most people to master and to maintain control while getting the canopy in the d bag. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 3 #4 February 7, 2005 The only things I find a Psycho pack beneficial on are brand-new, and I mean BRAND NEW, super-slippery canopies. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ladyskydiver 0 #5 February 7, 2005 My experience when learning to pack - I couldn't get the damn canopy in the bag when I was trying to pro pack. I could do everything up until the s-folds and getting it into the bag. I got so frustrated and was ready to quit packing all together, but a friend showed me how to psycho pack. And, after that I could FINALLY get it into the bag. Now, that the canopy has a few jumps on it, I'm going to try and relearn the s-folds and try pro packing again. Just to amuse myself and see what differences (if any) I experience with the two different pack jobs.Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nicknitro71 0 #6 February 7, 2005 QuoteThird, Psycho packing actually requires pulling the bridle attachment point out to the side It does not if you use a bridle extention (reccomended when psyco packing)Memento Audere Semper 903 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 36 #7 February 7, 2005 Beezy, You didn't use a bridle extension on the tandem at PIA, if I remember right. And none of the instructions I could find today talk about a bridle extension. What's the current feeling on adding one in order to psycho pack? (See above post)I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
windcatcher 0 #8 February 7, 2005 QuoteFirst, flat packing DOES NOT make a canopy open 90 degrees off heading. Really? hmm, I have heard differently from a few people. So you're saying flat packing you don't have a slight off heading opening? I have heard that psycho is better when you have slippery material; I will probably learn both pro and psycho, just had wondered if they both produced the same kind of clean openings on average, but sounds here like there really isn't too much of a difference. Mother to the cutest little thing in the world... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #9 February 7, 2005 QuoteReally? hmm, I have heard differently from a few people. So you're saying flat packing you don't have a slight off heading opening? If you closely examine the pack job and method you'll come to see that comments like those are probably being made by people who don't know how to flat pack.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 36 #10 February 7, 2005 "(You see, the early squares were packed by laying them on their sides before folding, a packjob which is still used quite successfully by many people. Some people erroneously think this "side-pack" method induces a 90 degree off heading opening. It's not true.) " Quote from PrecisionDot Aero (George Galloway) on how to Precision Pack a canopy under general information. (Precision Pack equals Psycho Pack) A flat pack starts on it's side 90 degrees off heading. BUT the rest of the canopy is S folded on top of the nose. The tail and nose are now in line front to back. So the canopy unfolds front to back and side to side, just like a PRO pack. You've been misinformed.I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beezyshaw 0 #11 February 7, 2005 We originally recommended using a bridle extension, but now it just doesn't seem to be necessary. The theory was that an extension would keep you from having to pull the bridle attachment out of the "roll", which in theory at the time seemed like an important idea. That was about 8 years ago, and after countless thousands of pack jobs without an extension, it now seems the "theory" was without validity. I have seen no opening problems, canopy stress, or an other issues by not using the extension. And I would rather my pilot chute and bag not hang any farther back than possible, so I no longer recommend the extension. Edit: If you use a main pilot chute that either 1)has the kill line inside the lower part of the bridle(the section of bridle between the canopy and d bag), or 2) use a pilot chute that has a loop at the end used to form a lark's head attachment to the canopy, then you already have an "extension" of sorts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 3 #12 February 7, 2005 I have never used a bridle extension with any psycho pack I ever did. Those only seem neccessary on the largest canopies. For what it's worth, I think PRO or psycho packing anything larger than a 120 is dumb. If you can't hold the entire canopy off the ground with your hand at your waist, then you are simply fighting the material. It's very-simply much faster to stack or roll pack larger canopies. And to the 30-jump girl who was misinformed that side packing equals off-heading openings: you might be fascinated at just how many people stack pack and roll pack their Stillettos and Velocities. People like Scott Rhodes, Craig Girard, Chris Wagner, Neal Beverly, and Paul Rafferty (RIP). Ultimately, any packjob you can get into the bag is going to open cleanly so long as you have set both brakes, un-collapsed your slider, cocked your pilot chute, and run the slider cleanly up your lines without any twists. One general method or little packing nuance might change the time it takes to open, but any and all will get the job done so long as you can get it in the bag. Seriously. I regularly switch up packing my wingsuit rig just to see if any one type makes any difference; it doesn't. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChrisL 2 #13 February 7, 2005 Do you find that this is the case regardless of the make/model of canopy? I have a Sabre2 and I've often considered trying a psycho pack but stayed away from it because PD recommends the PRO pack.__ My mighty steed Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumper03 0 #14 February 7, 2005 QuoteThe only things I find a Psycho pack beneficial on are brand-new, and I mean BRAND NEW, super-slippery canopies. that's the only time I use theh psycho pack as well. You can control that eel much better.Scars remind us that the past is real Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 3 #15 February 7, 2005 QuoteDo you find that this is the case regardless of the make/model of canopy? I have a Sabre2 and I've often considered trying a psycho pack but stayed away from it because PD recommends the PRO pack. Is your Sabre2 so slippery that you cannot contol it when PRO packing it? Sabre2's have packing tabs for a reason. Once again, I regularly switch between two types of side packing (stack and roll) and PRO packing with my Sabre2 97 wingsuit canopy. If a canopy has packing tabs then it is obviously OK to side pack it. I know more than a couple of people who sewed packing tabs on their Stillettos to make side packing even faster. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChrisL 2 #16 February 7, 2005 Yes. Slippery as hell. Its brand new with only 16 jumps on it and its very hard to bag. Flaking it is fine. No problems, its putting it in the bag that sucks. I CAN and do sucessfully bag it but its a pain. Flat packing isnt really an option at my dz because its a busy place and I expect I'd get a lot of frowns taking up that much space packing. Its a 190. There literally inst enough space to spread it out most days even if I didnt care what people would think. I used to flat pack at my old DZ but here it isnt practical, especially on busy days. I'm not familiar with stack and roll packing.__ My mighty steed Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveNFlorida 0 #17 February 7, 2005 QuoteFor what it's worth, I think PRO or psycho packing anything larger than a 120 is dumb. If you can't hold the entire canopy off the ground with your hand at your waist, then you are simply fighting the material. ? I can't even think how i'd pack my 105 w/o putting it down on the ground. I can barely get it in the back as it is. Is this for people with super long arms? Can you elaborate on what you feel is appropriate method of packing smallish canopies? thx. -a Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Travman 6 #18 February 7, 2005 I am also learning to pack at the moment. I was showed pro-pack first, and did have difficulty getting into the bag - only did it a few times. Then I was showed psycho pack and I did find it much easier to manage and I have been doing it since. The rigger who taught me said after doing a few psycho packs I would probably have an easier time doing a pro pack because I would be more use to managing the canopy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dan_iv 0 #19 February 8, 2005 QuoteFor what it's worth, I think PRO or psycho packing anything larger than a 120 is dumb. If you can't hold the entire canopy off the ground with your hand at your waist, then you are simply fighting the material. Well I'm definately a novice at this but i'm on ly 5'8" and just learned to PRO pack a week ago with a sabre 210 (my first pack job) and I didn't think it was that difficult or that I had to "fight" the material. I just place the lines over my shoulder when flaking, etc... Quote Ultimately, any packjob you can get into the bag is going to open cleanly so long as you have set both brakes, un-collapsed your slider, cocked your pilot chute, and run the slider cleanly up your lines without any twists. One general method or little packing nuance might change the time it takes to open, but any and all will get the job done so long as you can get it in the bag. Chuckthis is basically what the rigger that showed me how to pack said too... don't fret over it being "perfect", it's going to open one way or another... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #20 February 8, 2005 I think the 90 heading issue is froma form of flat packing called a "roll pack". But a "normal" flat pack is just a PRO pack using the floor as an aide for control. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bdbrown 0 #21 February 8, 2005 Have a psycho pro pack for ya -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gdmusumeci 0 #22 February 8, 2005 Out of curiosity, are you doing both S-folds prior to putting the canopy in the bag? I have had horrible luck with that method, especially on my Spectre. A packer taught me a trick once (thanks again, Gigi) that has helped me immensely. It goes something like this -- after the canopy is cocooned up nicely, carefully fold the corners of the top of the cocoon underneath (note that this is all loose fabric and not lines). Then, S-fold the top (farthest from the slider) portion of the canopy; it helps if you put your shin across the canopy lower down. Bag that, using light pressure with the knee to keep the corner you're not working with under control -- too much pressure and fabric goes everywhere, too little pressure and fabric goes everywhere! -- and then you can S-fold the rest of the canopy right into the bag. Voila! Also, it really helps to relax. Parachutes can smell fear and they will misbehave if they think you are either afraid of them or going to manhandle them. Just my two cents. (Please note that I am a total novice and you should absolutely not do this unless you're independently convinced, perhaps with the assistance of an instructor, that this is going to work.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chrisgr 0 #23 February 8, 2005 http://www.packingparachutes.com/techniques_tips/greed.htm Reverse 'S' fold. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 3 #24 February 8, 2005 QuoteI think the 90 heading issue is froma form of flat packing called a "roll pack". But a "normal" flat pack is just a PRO pack using the floor as an aide for control. Matt Matt: what you are calling a "normal" flat pack is generally called a "stack pack" around here. Angela: I was just talking about how I hold the canopy when I am flaking it prior to laying it on the ground. Once on the ground, the best way I have found to manage small (and extremely small) canopies is to coccoon the canopy to the width of the bag, kneel on the bottom eight inches of the canopy (at the lines), fold the rest of the canopy straight up towards your chest, roll it back down to the ground like a sleeping bag while making sure the coccoon stays tight, clear the bridle while maintaining the tight roll, jam the bag under the roll and stuff the rolled part into the bag, spin around towards your container while holding onto the bagged canopy (to prevent it from slipping back out). Lastly, pull that last eight inches that you were kneeling on up into the bag and do your locking stows. That's the easiest way to manage a PRO pack I have ever seen and it's what I do every single time now. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nicknitro71 0 #25 February 8, 2005 QuoteFirst, flat packing DOES NOT make a canopy open 90 degrees off heading. When finished a flat pack is a pro pack that has all the material going from side to side in s folds between line groups versus half of the fabric going to each side. I am not disagreeing here but flat packing does have less on-heading consistency than pro. I will never flat pack a BASE canopy or even a reserve for that matter.Memento Audere Semper 903 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
