Another reason to make sure that pilot chute pouch is in good condition

[peek 20]

So here is another good reason to make sure that your pilot chute pouch is in good condition. We normally think of a pilot chute coming out prematurely when the elastic is worn.

A novice jumper just purchased a rig, and was making his second jump on it I think. The mouth of the pilot chute pouch was "floppy".

Although he said he checked the handle before he exited, somehow the pilot chute handle got pushed up into the pouch where he could not feel it. A normal reserve ride resulted.

Perhaps this would not have happened if the pouch was tight. And perhaps his inexperience with the feel of a new pilot chute handle contributed to this.

By the way, I don't know of the rig was maintained by a local rigger or if it was purchased ready to jump, but with the worn pilot chute pouch.

[normiss 622]

You are referring to the BOC, yes?

[peek 20]

Yes. This could include other pouch locations too, although I think a jumper could see the handle in other positions.

[Rugby82 0]

A friend of mine had a premature because of this while sitflying. He had a Merit which is known to open hard.

I shot it on camera and it doesn't look nice. He was out for a whole year with back problems. The pilot chute pouch is very important especially when freeflying.

Blue skies!

[Ryye 0]

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A friend of mine had a premature because of this while sitflying. He had a Merit which is known to open hard.

I shot it on camera and it doesn't look nice. He was out for a whole year with back problems. The pilot chute pouch is very important especially when freeflying.

OUCH! I could not imagine the amount of strain on your back in that situation!

Some of the greatest accomplishments were done by people too stupid to know they were impossible.

[murps2000 86]

Was the pouch spandex, or cordura with an elastic mouth?

[skydiverek 55]

Or SPANDURA?

[peek 20]

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Was the pouch spandex, or cordura with an elastic mouth?

Spandex, but I don't recall if it had the added piece of elastic at the mouth. or how thick it was if it did.

[kimemerson 7]

A stretched out pilot chute pocket with a brand new shiny pilot chute making its way out early is exactly what killed Tommy Piras. He was training a four way team in Panama and he filled in one of the slots while that team member stayed down. (The process was to rotate so that Tommy took various slots while each team member stayed down one jump) One of the guys went low and had a premature pilot chute deployment which opened the main in Tommy's face, causing him to hit the canopy, flop over the front of it and hit the other guy's knee, knocking Tommy out. He was observed at about 1,000' on his back groping groggily for a handle. But...

An intersesting part of this tale is that Cypress had just come on the market. It was unknown and untested and suffered from the reputation of other, earlier AADs, which, essentially meant that no one wanted one. Tommy didn't want one either but as the Cypress folks wanted the big name to sponsor and rather pushed themselves on Tommy, and he could conceal it and he didn't have to turn it on, he accepted and didn't turn it on. So he died. The irony is that even though the Cypress was not on and did not do what it was designed to do, three days after Tommy died you couldn't buy a Cypress for ready money and it put them on the map. Cypress sort of owes its reputation and success to Tommy who didn't even use it, not once.

[murps2000 86]

I've always wondered why spandex was so popular as a boc pouch. My old reflex with well over 1000 jumps on it has a cordura pouch with an elastic mouth that still secures the pilot chute about as well as when it was new. I wonder if it will ever wear out. An added bonus I've noticed is that if the main pin is ever pulled out of sequence, the pouch goes slack as soon as the pack tray is empty and the pilot chute pulls out quite easily with the bridle. I don't think new spandex releases it's grip in that situation.

[masterrigger1 2]

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A stretched out pilot chute pocket with a brand new shiny pilot chute making its way out early is exactly what killed Tommy Piras. He was training a four way team in Panama and he filled in one of the slots while that team member stayed down. (The process was to rotate so that Tommy took various slots while each team member stayed down one jump) One of the guys went low and had a premature pilot chute deployment which opened the main in Tommy's face, causing him to hit the canopy, flop over the front of it and hit the other guy's knee, knocking Tommy out. He was observed at about 1,000' on his back groping groggily for a handle. But...

Yep, I remember that day well....December 12,1992

The Pouch was mounted on a belly Band.

Tommy did find the reserve handle before impact, He just ran out of altitude.

MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[petejones45 0]

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Or SPANDURA?

what is that?

Look out for the freefly team, Smelly Peppers. Once we get a couple years more experience we will be a force to be reckoned with in the near future! BLUES!

[format 0]

It's Polish for "spank" "durex"

It's gotta be

What goes around, comes later.

[riggerpaul 1]

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Spandura®
A high-tech fabric combining the toughness of Cordura® with the stretch of Lycra®. Made of Cordura fibers spun around a Lycra core, it provides a level of abrasion resistance never before approached in a stretch fabric.

C'mon. you knew that

[skydiverek 55]

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Or SPANDURA?

what is that?

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=search_results&search_forum=all&search_string=spandura&search_type=AND&search_fields=sb&search_time=&search_user_username=billbooth&sb=score&mh=50

[fcajump 153]

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I've always wondered why spandex was so popular as a boc pouch. My old reflex with well over 1000 jumps on it has a cordura pouch with an elastic mouth that still secures the pilot chute about as well as when it was new. I wonder if it will ever wear out. An added bonus I've noticed is that if the main pin is ever pulled out of sequence, the pouch goes slack as soon as the pack tray is empty and the pilot chute pulls out quite easily with the bridle. I don't think new spandex releases it's grip in that situation.

My first mal was a hard pull from a Cordura pouch (two of us, standing on the ground, played tug-of-war to remove it from the pouch afterward... that sucker was not going anywhere...) I can't speak to how it was packed as an instructor had packed it for me... (last time that happened...)

To the DZO's credit (IMHO), by the next Saturday, all student rigs were converted to Spandex.

Like many things, Spandex pouches must be inspected and maintained to remain safe. I've seen people keep jumping with worn-out pouches, and one who had the potential to have his PC come out of a hole in the pouch. This is not unlike continuing to jump with worn out velcro, elastic, lines, Slinks, closing loops or anything else that should be replaced (including the whole rig).

I am not saying that Cordura pouches are death waiting to happen, and Spandex/Spandura have their limits. But I've not seen a undeployable hard-pull from a properly maintained pouch made from these fabrics.

JW

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[murps2000 86]

I'm curious what kind of rig it was and how it was packed. I have a hard time seeing how that could happen with the cordura pouch on my rig unless someone made a serious error packing the pilot chute.

I guess as is often the case, our opinions are based on situational experience. Off-hand, in ten years of jumping pretty actively, I can recall one non-deployable hard pull with a spandex pilot chute pouch that I've witnessed, and one that I know of but didn't see. They were both on fairly new gear. But in both cases jumpers played tug of war in the landing area until the pilot chute came out instead of taking the gear to a rigger to try and actually see what was wrong. I'm not sure what, if any packing errors occurred. I don't know if I can conclusively blame the spandex pouch, but I know after my 1000+ jumps with my cordura pouch, I don't want one.

Still, spandex is popular. I could be wrong.

You're absolutely correct about inspecting and maintaining your pouch, regardless of material. That is key, and really the point of this thread.

[fcajump 153]

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I'm curious what kind of rig it was and how it was packed. I have a hard time seeing how that could happen with the cordura pouch on my rig unless someone made a serious error packing the pilot chute.

Unfortunately as much I would like to report back the fine details of a rigger's analysis... this one goes into the unknown bucket...
I was a newer jumper working with new rental gear. As there we were on a rush call, an instructor finished closing the rig for me and packed the PC. Then once on the ground, as you indicated you've seen before, the young jumper (me) and an instructor from the DZ failed to take the rig to the rigger for analysis of the cause... o-well.

My log book doesn't specify the rig brand, but I think the DZ was using Tallens with the PC pouch being ROL. (initially Cordura then converted to spandex)

The problem was a pack method that caused the material to bunch up... beyond that, I don't know. I fully expect that the pack method was the initial cause, but we speculated then and I believe to this day that had the material been spandex, I could have gotten it out... but maybe not.

Also, while I don't have them in front of me to compare, I would hassen to point out that manufacturers have refined/improved their designs considerably. This was on a 1990/91 rig.
Immediately after that I went to my own rigger who showed me a fold/stow method I have used ever since that wont bunch when extracted by the handle.

It is only now (almost 20 years later) that I've started looking at new methods, primarily based on Brian Germain's technique to enable clean extraction by either the handle (normal deployment) or by bridle (in the event of a horseshow mal.)
See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axCeYlY_6io

JW

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[sundevil777 93]

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I have a hard time seeing how that could happen with the cordura pouch on my rig

What is it about a spandex pouch that you think makes it immune compared to a cordura pouch? I've never seen an example of a PC that couldn't be easily extracted, it might be worthwhile if we discuss what it actually takes to make it happen.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[murps2000 86]

Do you mean a Talon container? With a cordura pouch ROL? Interesting. The one time I jumped an ROL rig it was a javelin with a spandex pouch, so I've got nothing to compare to your experience. Maybe on the leg spandex is better, and I didn't think of that since I haven't even seen an ROL in use in quite a while.

You mention the pack method causing the pilot chute to bunch up. I have heard of this and suspect that to be at least contributary in the two hard-pull situations I know of. I have heard of people even s-folding their pilot chutes to avoid this. But this is what I have a hard time envisioning happening on my rig. My pouch, unlike spandex, does not grip the pilot chute over its full length. It is kept snug by pressure from the main pack tray, but really only the elastic at the mouth holds it in place. It is secure, but always easy to deploy. I think, but can't prove, that because spandex grips the pilot chute so completely, it is more likely to cause it to ball up, or at least exacerbate packing errors that cause it to do so. To me, a spandex pouch seems like it can occasionally turn into a really mushy chinese pilot chute trap.

[murps2000 86]

I'm not sure you're reading my posts correctly. I don't think spandex is immune to anything except perhaps coming back in style.

As for what it takes to make it happen, well, I'll give it a shot. I think that if a pilot chute is packed in such a manner that when the handle is pulled, it pulls first on the center of the pilot chute pack job while the material in contact with the inside surface of the pouch (particuarly closer to the mouth) remains stationary, the potential exists for the pilot chute to ball up and cause a hard pull.

I doubt I could clearly explain in words the ways I think someone could pack the pilot chute so it would behave this way, but I believe it can be done. And as I have said, I believe spandex might make it worse.

[fcajump 153]

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I have a hard time seeing how that could happen with the cordura pouch on my rig

What is it about a spandex pouch that you think makes it immune compared to a cordura pouch? I've never seen an example of a PC that couldn't be easily extracted, it might be worthwhile if we discuss what it actually takes to make it happen.

The difference isn't in the ability to fold it wrong, its in the ability to pry a badly folded pc from the more giving spandex.

Since this discussion came up, I've been trying to remember how we packed them prior to my reserve ride... But there was (IS) a way in which it can bunch up to the point of not being easily dislodged from the pouch... I'll see if I can recreate it on the ground sometime... but believe me, at pull time when it won't come out, you quickly decide that a change is needed like fast.

JW

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[fcajump 153]

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Do you mean a Talon container? With a cordura pouch ROL? Interesting. The one time I jumped an ROL rig it was a javelin with a spandex pouch, so I've got nothing to compare to your experience. Maybe on the leg spandex is better, and I didn't think of that since I haven't even seen an ROL in use in quite a while.

(Oops.. thanks for the spelling... yes Talon.)
That's most of what we had when/where I started.
Converted to BOC myself ~15 years back.

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You mention the pack method causing the pilot chute to bunch up. I have heard of this and suspect that to be at least contributary in the two hard-pull situations I know of. I have heard of people even s-folding their pilot chutes to avoid this. But this is what I have a hard time envisioning happening on my rig. My pouch, unlike spandex, does not grip the pilot chute over its full length. It is kept snug by pressure from the main pack tray, but really only the elastic at the mouth holds it in place. It is secure, but always easy to deploy. I think, but can't prove, that because spandex grips the pilot chute so completely, it is more likely to cause it to ball up, or at least exacerbate packing errors that cause it to do so. To me, a spandex pouch seems like it can occasionally turn into a really mushy chinese pilot chute trap.

Actually my experience was the opposite of your description. It was because the pilot chute was not held snug along its length that it was able to bunch up. And once bunched up behind that neck of elastic, the harder you pulled to worse it got. Mind you, I do believe it all started with the method of folding. I have yet to be able to pack a mess in a spandex that I could not extract... but then I'm also not trying to very often

However, you may be onto another minor contributing factor... Your BOC cordura is held snug by the container. My ROL cordura was not... the rest of the pouch was not ultra loose... but not firm either... only tight at the neck to keep it from getting loose prematurely.

JW

PS - one thing I will agree on. Spandex does wear out and should be kept in good repair/replaced.

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[fcajump 153]

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I'm not sure you're reading my posts correctly. I don't think spandex is immune to anything except perhaps coming back in style.

As for what it takes to make it happen, well, I'll give it a shot. I think that if a pilot chute is packed in such a manner that when the handle is pulled, it pulls first on the center of the pilot chute pack job while the material in contact with the inside surface of the pouch (particuarly closer to the mouth) remains stationary, the potential exists for the pilot chute to ball up and cause a hard pull.

I doubt I could clearly explain in words the ways I think someone could pack the pilot chute so it would behave this way, but I believe it can be done. And as I have said, I believe spandex might make it worse.

You've got the idea correct as to cause, though in my (limited) experiences, the spandex pouch makes the mess extractable (though hard) while the cordura (in my case) made it impossible.

YMMV

JW

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[sundevil777 93]

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I'm not sure you're reading my posts correctly. I don't think spandex is immune to anything except perhaps coming back in style.

As for what it takes to make it happen, well, I'll give it a shot. I think that if a pilot chute is packed in such a manner that when the handle is pulled, it pulls first on the center of the pilot chute pack job while the material in contact with the inside surface of the pouch (particuarly closer to the mouth) remains stationary, the potential exists for the pilot chute to ball up and cause a hard pull.

I doubt I could clearly explain in words the ways I think someone could pack the pilot chute so it would behave this way, but I believe it can be done. And as I have said, I believe spandex might make it worse.

You're right, I did mean - why do you think that a cordura pouch is immune?

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am