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CISSCO101

Javelin Vs. Racer

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The first couple jumps on the 2K3 the riser covers didn't even come open on opening until they were broken in a little.



How can your riser covers stay closed on opening? I am not sure I understand what you mean by that. Surely I must be missing something.

I think anyone who blindly buys a Javelin because they are the most popular rig is really missing out. If you have looked at other rigs and really considered everything and then buy a Javelin, that is great. But, I think that many people just buy them because they are so well-known/ widely used so there fore MUST be the best.

-A



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Actually riggers in the field are not supposed to be manufacturing Reserve Quick Loops, as they are a TSO'd component of the Racer container. You may purchase factory made Quick Loops directly from Jump Shack.

The Racer is not difficult to pack. If a rigger tells you that a rig is too difficult for him to pack - it is simply an indication that he hasn't learned how, in which case I would want to seek out a more thoroughly educated rigger. We have trained many riggers (and manufacturers), here at Jump Shack over the years, and I am proud to say we have turned out many of the best. Honestly, I have had apprentice riggers with 4 or 5 packs logged turn out safe, beautiful Racer reserve pack jobs that are better looking than some more "experienced" riggers who simply have not sought out the education.


			
		

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The first couple jumps on the rig the riser covers were very stiff still. The opening force of the canopy was not enough to force the risers through the riser covers. I jump a Firebolt that opens very very softly which may have contributed to this. This casued no problems with the canopy opening or anything I simply reached up and yanked on the risers to pull them through the covers. After the second jump I sat on the ground and bent the covers back and forth a lot to break them in some and haven't had it happen since. The riser protection on the new 2K3 is awesome. I don't worry about the riser covers opening anytime in freefall or on the ground or in the plane.

Christina

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Wow, i'm glad you got it straightened (or bent;) out. Riser protection is really important, glad you have good gear!

I don't know anything about Racers, except that a lot of people hate them, and others love them. I had a used Javelin before I bought my Voodoo. It isn't apples to apples because the Jav was used, but I absolutely love the way the Voodoo feels, it is very comfy. :)

-A



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I own 5 Racers and absolutely adore them. They're so much more comfortable (especially for those of us with skinny shoulders) than most rigs. And I've never known anyone to tighten their own pop-top. I've certainly gotten mine tightened on occasion - but always by a rigger...

I adore them.

W

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I own 5 Racers and absolutely adore them. They're so much more comfortable (especially for those of us with skinny shoulders) than most rigs. And I've never known anyone to tighten their own pop-top. I've certainly gotten mine tightened on occasion - but always by a rigger...

I adore them.

W



Yeah, i'd heard that about the Racer and was considering it as my first rig until I met my boyfriend who said he wouldn't pack it:P In the end, after owning the Javelin, I preferred to go without a pop top.

-A



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Actually riggers in the field are not supposed to be manufacturing Reserve Quick Loops, as they are a TSO'd component of the Racer container.


Argghh, you beat me to it!

I like to keep a closing loop in my rigging kit for just suchg an occasion.

I own 2 Racers, and 10 Javs (ok, 1 racer is a tandem and the javs are student gear) and I'll pack the tandem before I'll pack the jav!

I also prefer the reserve pin protection the racer provides when I'm doing IADs.
My previous set opened in the plane twice and I once checked it after a load and it was half past the grommet! Scary *&%$# !


I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

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Yeah, i'd heard that about the Racer and was considering it as my first rig until I met my boyfriend who said he wouldn't pack it:P In the end, after owning the Javelin, I preferred to go without a pop top.

-A



I'm the opposite - rigs which have their reserve pins outside scare the heck out of me. If the pop top is packed right, its great and there is no danger of nailing a reserve pin. I get the heeber-jeebers jumping rigs where the reserve pins aren't on my back.

W

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>Really? I bet Javelin, Wings and a few other manufactures
>would disagree with you on that.

The javelin and wings containers close "conventionally" and the PC is covered by flaps. The reflex and the racer close the opposite way.

>Then the issue is not the Rig it is the lazy rigger that needs to
>give up rigging.

Of course. Which was my original point - just make sure your rigger has experience closing racers (and isn't lazy.)

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The javelin and wings containers close "conventionally" and the PC is covered by flaps. The reflex and the racer close the opposite way.

When did they start covering the PC completly? I just looked at both and they are still semi-exposed pop tops. They are not a completly covered PC like a RWS rig.

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It's also an ellipitcal canopy like the stilleto but has better opening charecteristics in my opinion.



Unlike the Stiletto it's not a 100% ZP canopy, but a hybrid instead. I wouldn't own one for that reason.
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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

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Actually riggers in the field are not supposed to be manufacturing Reserve Quick Loops, as they are a TSO'd component of the Racer container. You may purchase factory made Quick Loops directly from Jump Shack.



Wow, another eason to not buy one. I thought there were suposed to be "rigger friendly"
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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

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individually



I learned to pro-pack on a Stilltto 150, the jumper was over 12 stone (not sure how much), jumped camera and often pulled around 2k2. It was the easest canopy I've been asked to pack. He had no problems of hard openings that I can remember even when I trashed packed it once (an off day, he was in a hurry to jump video again, I just said "don't ask just dump high" he did [2k5] and had one of the best openings he'd ever had). Can't ever remember him having twists, prahaps the odd of heading by 90 degrees but that's all.


Get out, Land on a green bit. If you get the pull somewhere in between it would help.

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Actually riggers in the field are not supposed to be manufacturing Reserve Quick Loops, as they are a TSO'd component of the Racer container. You may purchase factory made Quick Loops directly from Jump Shack.



Interesting, what about when you are using a running loop? According to Airtec, when a cypres is installed, you are to "Make sure that a Running loop has been installed."

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Actually riggers in the field are not supposed to be manufacturing Reserve Quick Loops, as they are a TSO'd component of the Racer container. You may purchase factory made Quick Loops directly from Jump Shack.



I don't understand how a Racer's closing loop is part of the TSO'd system and therefore a rigger can't make one but on every other rig it isn't part of the TSO'd system and the rigger is expected to make a new one. I’m a bit confused here.

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What does that have to do with being rigger friendly? In fact it would make it more rigger friendly as it is one less thing a rigger would have to make.



Well, we can each open a Racer and decide they both need new closing loops. I'll make one and you order one and see who has a loop ready to go first.

If I packed Racers, I would have to order Mil-Spec rubber bands and quick loops from Jump shack and keep them on hand. If I didn't have the bands or loops on hand, I might not be abke to pack a Racer until I ordered more and they arrived. Having to keep special parts on hand for just Racers makes the rig less rigger friendly.

I have spare closing loops ready to go for any rig that I pack. I don't have a bunch of containers with Javelin, Mirage, Vector, Infinity, Wings, etc closing loops for each type of rig. They all take the same loop. Just pre-stretch, size and go.

And finally, after confirming that I figured out the method you heard of how to tighten almost any rig without breaking the seal does create evidence of tampering so that if the jumper goes in because they over tightened their reserve loop, I can point to the evidence to protect myself. A Racer that has been over tightened leaves no evidence of tampering. Racers and Reflex's are the only 2 (U.S.) rigs that can be tightened by the user easily and could be over tightened creating a hard or impossible pul without any evidence if the jumper goes in.

No, as far as anyone knows, it has never happened, but 1) that doesn't mean it won't, 2) Racers have been accidentally over tightened after being packed by yhe ownr or someone else to create impossible pull forces and if they would have had a cutaway they would not have been able to manually activate the reserve, and 3) until Jump Shack makes a change to prevent that scenario, I will not pack Racers.

Derek

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I might not be abke to pack a Racer until I ordered more and they arrived. Having to keep special parts on hand for just Racers makes the rig less rigger friendly.


There is an old saying "We spend they first half of our life finding truth. We spend the second half defending our version of it.

Ever tried to order a replacement safety stoe? It can take months.

Oh yeah, they're made of "invincible rubber" that never degrades! The sheathing is likewise invincible!

*sniff* what's that smell, is that sarcasm. Must be, I've seen safety stoes that have been left so long it would make Para flight change to elastics. Must be too much hassle to change them.
Takes longer to get a safety stoe than a quickloop. I actually had to call someone at jumpshack to go over to RWS and get me a stoe!

And don't say you can just make them because there is a whole bunch of senior oput there who can't. I've also seen stoe made 2"+ out of spec.

As for lossing your ticket or being sued for a Racer packed to tight, it's called reasonable doubt. We're not talking about leaving a molar strap in a rig! If anyone can tighten a racer, than the rigger cannot be responsible beyond the pullforce recorded the day the rig was pack. If anything, the Racer absolve the rigger of being responsible for the pullforce on the rig.

As for JP up there who won't buy a canopy if it's hybrid, I see yor point. I mean F11 is stronger than ZP, It's on the bottom skin wher lift is not an issue, there fore it won't affect the flight and is not subject to wear. It is easier to pack and has a small pack volume, all reasons to hate them.

*sniff* there's that smell again.

I knew this guy who didn't believe in real things. He told me he didn't belive in seat belts,he didn't believe in big cars and he didn't believe in Docters. One Day his Datsun was slammed by an old Mercury Meteor. He blasted out the front windsheild into the other car.
He wound up in the emergency room and started believing in all three real quick.
He died cause I don't believe the Doctors could help him.:P

Soo, don't believe in F11 eh?


I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

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I don't understand how a Racer's closing loop is part of the TSO'd system and therefore a rigger can't make one but on every other rig it isn't part of the TSO'd system and the rigger is expected to make a new one. I’m a bit confused here.

I’m not confused as I think this is total bull too! The closing loop is nothing more than cypress cord just like any other rig. You are not making an alteration and I know plenty of riggers that make them. It is also the first time that I have ever heard this.
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Well, we can each open a Racer and decide they both need new closing loops. I'll make one and you order one and see who has a loop ready to go first.

I agree, I will make mine too.
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If I packed Racers, I would have to order Mil-Spec rubber bands and quick loops from Jump shack and keep them on hand.

A lot of DZ's use Kenner rubber bands, I use Kenner rubber bands on all mains, pilot emergency and reserves that use bands
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Having to keep special parts on hand for just Racers makes the rig less rigger friendly.

That is silly as every rig made has its own list of proprietary parts.
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I have spare closing loops ready to go for any rig that I pack. I don't have a bunch of containers with Javelin, Mirage, Vector, Infinity, Wings, etc closing loops for each type of rig. They all take the same loop. Just pre-stretch, size and go.

You also have to change them every time!
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And finally, after confirming that I figured out the method you heard of how to tighten almost any rig without breaking the seal does create evidence of tampering so that if the jumper goes in because they over tightened their reserve loop, I can point to the evidence to protect myself.

Really, that would be a neat trick if the cypres cut the loop and it wasn’t there.
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A Racer that has been over tightened leaves no evidence of tampering.

That is absolutely untrue as I pointed out in my PM, so quit trying to mislead people into thinking otherwise!
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Racers and Reflex's are the only 2 (U.S.) rigs that can be tightened by the user easily and could be over tightened creating a hard or impossible pul without any evidence if the jumper goes in.

Again not true.
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No, as far as anyone knows, it has never happened, but 1) that doesn't mean it won't, 2) Racers have been accidentally over tightened after being packed by yhe ownr or someone else to create impossible pull forces and if they would have had a cutaway they would not have been able to manually activate the reserve, and 3) until Jump Shack makes a change to prevent that scenario, I will not pack Racers.

You have been told and shown several times how to prevent this since it is a concern to you. Your concern is obviously self preservation since it can be prevented. If you were truly concerned about the skydiver’s safety wouldn’t you want the rig that has the longest and best safety record in regards to this issue? No rigger has ever been questioned about it in thirty years. And I know it “could happen” well so could the next ice age. I and other riggers are confident enough in both our competency and documentation that it would stand any challenge should it ever arise as in any other rigging scenario. So say what you want as long as you want because you can not change the fact no matter how you try and twit is that an over tightened Racer has never killed anyone in over thirty years, a claim that certain other manufactures can not make!

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teason wrote: “And don't say you can just make them”

I can just make them. Sorry, but I can and do. So when I run across a worn safety stow I just replace it.

“As for lossing your ticket or being sued for a Racer packed to tight, it's called reasonable doubt. We're not talking about leaving a molar strap in a rig! If anyone can tighten a racer, than the rigger cannot be responsible beyond the pullforce recorded the day the rig was pack. If anything, the Racer absolve the rigger of being responsible for the pullforce on the rig.”

I don’t trust the FAA that much to realize or understand that much about rigging.


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That is silly as every rig made has its own list of proprietary parts.



I don’t need any special parts for a Javelin, Mirage, Infinity, Vector, etc…….

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You also have to change them every time!



I don’t mind.

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Really, that would be a neat trick if the cypres cut the loop and it wasn’t there.



If the Cypres cut the loop, then the jumper would live and I wouldn’t be worried about manslaughter charges.

Once again, the scenario I am worried about is no AAD or the AAD doesn’t fire with an over-tightened pop-top rig.

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That is absolutely untrue as I pointed out in my PM, so quit trying to mislead people into thinking otherwise!



Really? What evidence would there be to show that someone besides the packing rigger tightened the pop-top if a jumper went in after over-tightening it?

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You have been told and shown several times how to prevent this since it is a concern to you.



I don’t feel that recording the pull force or tacking the end of the loop is good enough defense. I am not comfortable that a jumper may take it upon themselves to tighten a pop-top I have packed. Tacking the end of the loop does not prevent someone from tightening it and I don’t think telling the FAA, “I tacked the end of the loop and it’s not tacked anymore, so he must have over-tightened it himself.” will fly.

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I and other riggers are confident enough in both our competency



I don’t pack pop-tops not because I am lazy or uneducated or incompetent or lack confidence. I can (and have) packed pop-top rigs, but will not anymore (except for ones w/ non-adjustable closing loops). I’m only one rigger, so in the grand scheme of things I’m not affecting anything by not packing them, there are plenty of riggers that will pack them.

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an over tightened Racer has never killed anyone in over thirty years



Last question and you may have the last word on the subject.

Have you ever seen or heard of someone over tightening a Racer after a rigger packed it?

Derek

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I don’t need any special parts for a Javelin, Mirage, Infinity, Vector, etc…….

Since when did they start letting you use non-factory free-bags, PC’s, ripcords etc.?
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Have you ever seen or heard of someone over tightening a Racer after a rigger packed it?

Heard, yes, seen, no. I have also heard and was shown a non-racer having the same done by a non-rigger.

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hehe.. you're funny teason. You guys love to insult each other.

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Ever tried to order a replacement safety stoe? It can take months.

I wouldn't have even thought to order a safety stow. I just make them, and have done so since day one as a rigger. I have also seen mismade safety stows and various other problems throughout the years. Heck I've seen pictures of mis-assembled rigs that came from the factory. I'd bet if I tried to find the pictures again it wouldn't be too difficult.

As far as making quickloops, up until I read Nancy's post, I made them. It's been a while since I've read the entire manual so I suppose finding out if making a loop is "legal" would be in order.

Just like nightjumper, an ex-JumpShack employee, said, he makes his own loops. He didn't even know that it was not acceptible.

Oh and that hybrid comment. What in the world does F-111 have to do with your buddy who wouldn't wear a seat belt:D:D. JP has jumped both f111 and zp. It's certainly not a matter of believing in F-111.

Carry on :)
My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

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Why? What is your issues with hybrid?



Wear. Additional reasons are the fact it's not what was advertised to me at PIA last. I REALLY doubt the "high performance" claims on a canopy that is "scale-able" from 80 sq ft to 400 sq ft., and that is exactly what Mr. Sherman claimed.

There is no "swiss-army-do-it-all-fit-every-person-canopy". Dan Preston tried to peddle that a couple years ago and it didn't work then.

It flies well enough, but I'd pick a few designs over it first.
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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

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