Javelin Vs. Racer

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

1. If you're worried about somone adjusting the closing loops you can tack them down after the hat has been tightened down.

And if the hat loosens, they will break that thread to tighten it and I don't think that is any protection against accidently over-tightening the closing loop.

Quote

2. Customers have the option of a freebag with rubber bands or a bungy. But if high speed reserve deployments are a concern then the rubber banded speedbag is the way to go. It is also why ALL the manufacturers use this method when drop testing their canopies.

If manufacturer's TSO'd their gear w/ rubber bands, then riggers would have to pack them with rubber bands. If they were TSO'd with safety stows/bungee, then riggers have to pack them with safety stows/bungee.

What other manufacturer has TSO'd their rigs with rubber bands?

Quote

3. A properly seated hat poses no snag hazard whatso ever. A rigger can do the simple line/hat check before giving the rig back to the customer. Many a CREW dog would also agree.

Reserve PC's loosen for several reasons, including; closing loop stretches (a properly pre-stretched loop shouldn't stretch more than 3 mm), the knot moving on the closing loop, the reserve settling, a change in temperature and/or humidity. Even a properly closed Racer can have it's PC loosen, just like any rig, but with a racer, the PC presents much more of a snag hazard than say a Mirage that loosens a little.

Derek

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

Riggers can and have over tightened ANY rig.

Correct, but I can control that and once a rig leaves, if the PC loosens and needs to be re-tightened, The rig must be opened and the loop replaced, breaking the seal. With the Racer and Reflex, someone may tighten the loop without disturbing the seal. Those are the only 2 (U.S.) rigs like that.

Quote

And you were told by me how to prevent tampering and it is also listed in the manual.

Again, tacking the end of the loop doesn't prevent the rig from being tightened without breaking the seal.

Quote

In addition, in over 30 years that Racers have been made there has never been a malfunction as a result of the senario that you posted. So now let me make sure I understand you concern: You are worried about something that could happen that in thirty years has never happend?

Just because someone hasn't bounced because of it doesn't mean it won't happen. I'm not going to bet my ticket that it won't happen. I have heard of Racers that were over tightened, creating an impossible pull.

I've had another rigger open and re-close my reserve pack job and they made no notation on the card or did they re-seal the rig.

Quote

Why?

They degrade too quickly and there are too many people that pencil pack their reserves. If the rubber bands were to allow the free-bag to open pre-maturely and bag strip occured, the reserve could fail from the forces involved.

Last I heard from PD, they had no idea how rubber band locking stows would work, especially after the hot, cold, and time tests.

This is my opinion. I have heard the arguments against my opinion and my opinion has not changed on Racers (and Reflex's.) If Jumpshack made it so that the reserve closing loop could not be tightened from the outside of the rig without breaking the seal, I would pack Racers.

Derek

[LouDiamond 1]

1.So what is the difference in any othr rig out there? As Mike already said, you can overtighten ANY rig.

2. Clarification: ALL Manufacturers use rubber band speed bags when drop testing CANOPIES, so they don't explode

3. If any rig loosens up enough it can become a snag hazard,especialy when material starts sneaking around flaps, as is the case in this instance.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

But the most common rigs out there are internal pilot chute reserves. They are what most riggers are used to.
Really? I bet Javelin, Wings and a few other manufactures would disagree with you on that.

I think Bill was saying by 'internal pilot chute', the rigs with at least 2 flaps that cover the PC. Nost rigs have flaps that cover the PC.

Quote

Then the issue is not the Rig it is the lazy rigger that needs to give up rigging. And unfortunately the same thing has happened on every other type rig. Ask any rigger with any experience if they have seen a rig with a frayed closing loop?

I agree that if you are going to pack a reserve, you better do it right (and I replace the resesrve (and main) closing loop on EVERY reserve pack job), but the point is Racers are more work. Replacing the reserve closing loop on a Racer or Reflex is a lot more work than replacing the closing loop on a Javelin, for example.

I don't think Racers are that hard to pack, especially when you know the tricks, but they are harder than most rigs.

Derek

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

1.So what is the difference in any othr rig out there? As Mike already said, you can overtighten ANY rig.

You cannot overtighten a Mirage, Vector, Javelin, etc in the field where the PC has loosened without breaking the seal. Yes, you can over-tighten any rig when you pack the reserve and that is not my worry. Again my worry is that once I pack the reserve, the owner, a well-meaning rigger, or anyone else may tighten the reserve closing loop(s), creating a hard or impossible pull. What other rigs besides the RAcer or Reflex can you do that with?

Quote

Clarification: ALL Manufacturers use rubber band speed bags when drop testing CANOPIES, so they don't explode

We are talking reserve systems, not main systems.

Quote

3. If any rig loosens up enough it can become a snag hazard,especialy when material starts sneaking around flaps, as is the case in this instance.

On the racer then entire cir cumference of the PC resets against the reserve container. If the PC loosens, then the edgs of the PC becomes immediately exposed. On other rigs where the PC is protected by flaps, if the PC loosens a little, the edges of the PC are still protected by the flaps.

Derek

[Rdutch 0]

*** It is also why ALL the manufacturers use this method when drop testing their canopies.

Quote

Not true at all, PD uses factory standard freebags for all their drop tests. Cheating to get a canopy to pass only allows you to sell an product that is dangerous. I don't know what other manufacturers do but I can say 100% for sure that PD isn't in that business.

Ray
Small and fast what every girl dreams of!

• Quote

[LouDiamond 1]

Quote

We are talking reserve systems, not main systems.

So am I and it's in ref to the speed bag being used on a reserve system.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[LouDiamond 1]

I'd check that as I have heard different from an undisputable source. It's not done to enable a canopy to pass that wouldn't pass otherwise. Pull Mike F.aside or our buddy in the old Bird house and ask them about it

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[Rdutch 0]

First I have to say this, I cant speak for PD this is my own opinion and observation.
Ive been to every heavy drop test PD has done over the past year and a half. I can say they use industry standard freebags, I know this because I packed a bunch of them, no rubberbands. PD does drop tests to see how their designs work and also how to improve on them. Pass or fail if they arent 100% happy with the results the canopy isnt sold. Using rubberbands on the freebag will slow the snatch on the deployment at high speed but will slow the deployment on low speed. Using rubberbands on the freebag for heavy drops is cheating unless you sell your canopies to be used with a rubberband only freebag. All in all it doesn't show how a reserve will function in the real world because only one manufacturer uses rubberbands, it isn't industry standard. As far as your undisputable source, I trust my own eyes a lot more.

Ray
Small and fast what every girl dreams of!

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

1.So what is the difference in any othr rig out there? As Mike already said, you can overtighten ANY rig.

You didn't answer my question;

What other rigs besides the Racer or Reflex can the reserve closing loop(s) be tightened without breaking the seal?

All the other stuff is fluff, for me, this is the issue.

Derek

[NightJumper 0]

Quote

What other rigs besides the Racer or Reflex can the reserve closing loop(s) be tightened without breaking the seal?

Teardrop for one and about every other rig if you know how. And don't even ask how on this public read post. If you want to know see me at the PIA. And it is still a non-issue as it has never in over thirty years resulted in a malfunction! That is the FACT, the rest is nothing more than unproven speculation at best.

[NightJumper 0]

Quote

Using rubber bands on the freebag will slow the snatch on the deployment at high speed but will slow the deployment on low speed.

Really, and how did you determine that since you are not only the only person that I have heard that from but it is also NOT true? Do you know what the function of a speed bag is? It is not to slow it down but rather to prevent line dump and bag strip. If that were the case then why does the reserve deploy so quickly?

Quote

Using rubber bands on the freebag for heavy drops is cheating unless you sell your canopies to be used with a rubber band only freebag.

Again, not true as the canopies are used for both. What do you think shock cord is? A covered rubber band maybe?

Quote

All in all it doesn't show how a reserve will function in the real world because only one manufacturer uses rubber bands, it isn't industry standard.

And what do you base this on, since besides Jump Shack just about every emergency pilot rig made uses rubber bands?

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

Teardrop for one

I'll add the Teardrop to the list of rigs I won't pack. It hasn't come up since no one has ever asked me to pack a Teardrop.

Quote

about every other rig if you know how

You can accidently over-tighten a Mirage without breaking the seal?

I think you are missing my point. I am not talking about intentional tampering. I am talking about the owner of a Racer that the pop top has lossened on. He observed his rigger tighten the loops and isn't around his rigger, so he figures he'll tighten it a little. He unknowingly over-tightens the pop top, creating an impossible pull. He goes in after cuting away w/o a Cypres because he can't pull the handle. The FAA investigates, finds an unbroken seal on the reserve and a 60-pound pull force. The rigger says"It wasn't that high of a pull force when I packed it." "Well, you packed it and the seal is still in place............" That is the scenario I am talking about, not intentional tampering. I don't think that tacking the line to the cap or recording the pull force in your logbook is a good defense against this scenario.

Yes, any rig can be over-tightened. That is not what I am talking about.

Yes, any rig can be tampered with. That is not what I am talking about.

Quote

And it is still a non-issue as it has never in over thirty years resulted in a malfunction! That is the FACT, the rest is nothing more than unproven speculation at best.

Racers have been accidently over-tightened and out of the riggers' hands and that is a FACT. I know a rigger that posts occasionally here that found a 50+ pound pull force because the owner had over-tightened the reserve because it has loosened up. That is not unproven speculation.

Here is my original post on the subject.:

"I can, but will not pack either Racers or Reflex's because the closing loop may be tightened from outside the container without disturbing the seal and may be accidentally over-tightened by a well-meaning rigger, the owner, or anyone else. This can:

* create a pull above the maximum of 22 pounds
* create an impossible pull
* bend the ripcord pin.

That leaves the rigger with the seal on the rig responsible for the over-tightened closing loop."

You responded how riggers can do all 3 of those things to any rig. Again that is not what I am talking about. Read my post carefully. I'm talking about someone other than the packing rigger (the owner, a well-meaning rigger, or anyone else) tightening the loops because the pop top loosened and not to intentionally cause a hard pull, but by accident.

Derek

[NightJumper 0]

Quote

I don't think that tacking the line to the cap or recording the pull force in your logbook is a good defense against this scenario.

I don't care what you think, since you are not an attorney, have no case law or letter rulings from the FAA to support your theory. Your log book is a legal document. Do you think that you are 100% responsible for everything that happens to that rig once it leaves your control?

You can what if till the cows come home, the FACT stands that NO malfunction has occurred.

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

I don't care what you think

That's fine, but you haven't refuted my point.

Someone that jumps a Racer can watch their rigger tighten the loop or read the manual and learn how to tighten the loop. It isn't hard and they have been accidently overtightened.

I have never heard or seen or even know how to accidnetly over-tighten a non-pop top reserve. If I don't know how to (for example) overtighten a Mirage without breaking the seal, I'm confident that the owner won't either. Any time a reserve has loosened up that I have packed (it happends, but not very often) they have brought it back to me to open, replace the loop and re-close it.

What I think does matter when I decide whether or not to risk my rigging ticket. I am not an attorney, but I see a problem that I don't see how to avoid.

Do you tack the loop tothe cap of the Racers you pack? How do you tighten the pop top if needed later on? You simply brak the seal thread and tighten the loop. Tacking does not prevent the owner from doing the same thing.

What if'ing till the cows come home has brought me out alive from some very tight spots and kept me out of others. I think I'll continue to do it.

Quote

Do you think that you are 100% responsible for everything that happens to that rig once it leaves your control?

I think that if there is a problem and an investigation and all the evidence points to me being the cause of the problem, then I will be held responsible, even if I'm not. If they pull test the reserve to more than 22 pounds (w/o the seal) I don't think they'll care one bit if my logbook says "18-pounds".

Derek

[NightJumper 0]

Quote

I'm confident that the owner won't either.

Well, since it was a non-rigger (owner) that showed me, I guess that blows the confidense defense.

The FACT still stands no matter what you say that NO malfunction has occurred.

Another FACT: No rigger has EVER been questioned by the FAA or any other legal entity for your scenario.

[Unstable 8]

Okay, This thread topic has gotten red-hot in these forums on a number of occasions - so hopefully I can just shed some positive light on the subject with my experiences with the Racer & Javelins. I have owned a Racer 2K3 for over a year.

Personally, I would go with the Racer 2K3. Both the Racer and Javelins are Excellent top-notch rigs, but like many people have pointed out, this is an issue of preference. Let me tell you why I jump a Racer....

On the New 2K3, JumpShack has incorperaed a seemingly unique design to both the yoke and tuck tabs. As you know, you can order a Racer NOS, or Narrow Over the Shoulder. When fit correctly, this gives the rig a Unique feel on the Jumpers Back and IMHO, unparalled comfort. I have heard, again and again, that Racers are the most comfortable rig - what suprised me is when I heard it from several jumpers who Hate them! I'm a Baby - I want a comfortable rig and I want it fit right.
The Tuck-tabs on covering the risers are interesting, and when contoured across the wearers back, are more Secure than any other design I have seen. Very sharp looking, if I might Add.
I like the idea of a Pop-top. I like the Idea of having the reserve pins on the back. It makes sense - I've heard many manufacturers claim to offer superior reserve pin protection, but it seems that there can be no safer alternative to having them on the wearers back. It makes sense...
My Rigger who is A Jumpshack Dealer, prefers Racers, and Jumps one himself. He always told me that a Racer was EASIER to pack than most other reserves... Or maybe he just knows how to do it efficiently?
What sold me on a Racer over a Javelin (my second choice when I was buying new..) was customer service. I was at WFFC03, I had a chance to meet Peter, Mike, Howard, and the gang. Their customer service and what they offered to do to get me in a Rig I was happy with, was by far the best customer service I have seen in this industry. That is what I am looking for in a company...

Look, This is why I choose to jump a Racer. Look at my numbers - I'm not experienced at all, and take what I say with a grain of salt. A rig is a big investment, and you trust your life with it every time you jump. Talk to some other instructors, talk to as many riggers as you can - Call up JumpShack and talk to them, and find out why they do what they do. Try this, call each manufacturer, and ask directly, "Why should I buy your rig." You'll learn a lot!

If I hear a person say that they do not like Racers, I ask them directly, why. Sometimes I get a good answer, sometimes I get a mumbled answer, sometimes I get a rant, and often times, their answer leads me to believe that it's all about looking cool. Hell, Racers ARE cool, I wonder what they are thinking!!

=========Shaun ==========

[Unstable 8]

Just on a seperate note - I'm not a Rigger Either. This thread is getting kinda gloomy, so I thought I would share my positive experience with my Racer, just as a Customer of Jumpshacks and as A Skydiver.

Carry on!

=========Shaun ==========

[rhys 0]

dodgy racer and spinletto

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[mjosparky 3]

Quote

2. Clarification: ALL Manufacturers use rubber band speed bags when drop testing CANOPIES, so they don't explode

Quote

4.3 Qualification Tests:
The following minimum performance standards shall be met. There shall be no failure to meet any of the
requirements during the qualification tests of this section. In case of a failure, the cause must be found,
corrected, and all affected tests repeated. The packing method must be specified and the same packing
method must be used for all tests.

4.3.4 Strength Test: No material(s) or device(s) that attenuates shock loads and is not an integral part of the
parachute assembly or component being certificated may be used. Tests may be conducted for either a
complete parachute assembly or separate components. There shall be no evidence of material, stitch,
or functional failure that will affect airworthiness. The same canopy, harness, component, and/or riser(s)
shall be used for all 4.3.4 tests. Opening forces shall be measured on all 4.3.4 tests. The parachute
must be functionally open within the number of seconds calculated for 4.3.6 tests. Parachute
assemblies shall be tested in accordance with the following schedule:

The purpose of the high speed, high weight test are to demonstrate that the test item will not "explode" in the exact configuration for which it is seeking certification.

The TSO is granted on the test item meeting all the requirements of this document. (AS8015-B

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[RMURRAY 1]

Quote

selling my javelin odessey and want to purchase a Racer 2k3.

I knew I'd see a post like this one day - good to see. I will replace my NOS racer with a 2k3 if they are as comfortable....and from what I hear they are almost as good in that way. Too bad Mike F is not with JumpShack anymore but hopefully the good customer service will continue.

rm

rm

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

Well, since it was a non-rigger (owner) that showed me, I guess that blows the confidense defense.

No, it doesn't, since I haven't packed anyone's reserve that has expressed that they could tighten the reserve themselves without breaking the seal.

If it becomes common practice (tightening rigger's reserve pack jobs), I'll stop rigging.

Quote

The FACT still stands no matter what you say that NO malfunction has occurred.

Another FACT: No rigger has EVER been questioned by the FAA or any other legal entity for your scenario.

And I won't be the first. There have been owner's/owner's friends, etc that have over tightened Racers that created a total mal, they just haven't had a malfunction while in that condition, yet.

You cannot deny that Racers have been over tightened and it is easy for the owner to do, without any tricks. That is absoulutely true. You say that no malufunction has occured and as far as I know that it true, in the air. They have occured when trrying to pull the reserve on the ground.

It doesn't happen a lot, but it does happen. I choose not to expose myself to that risk. People tightening other thatn pop-top rigs apparently does happen, but 1) I don't know how to do it, and 2) I have never heard until now of that happening, and 3) it requires the knowledge of a special trick not listed in the manual or learn-able by watching your rigger pack your reserve.

So I think we can agree that it does happen and there is no defense against it. What we disagree on is whether there will be a fatality because of it and what will happen to the rigger.

Derek

[mx757 4]

I too bought my new Racer because of Jumpshacks great customer service. I've owed talon and Vector both of which I bought new, but I missed the comfert of my old used racer. Like Shawn says, Racer is great rig, and you can't beat the customer service. also after I got my new Racer.. at WFFC I demo'd Firebolts and new Pilots guess which I went with, Firebolt because of its performace and again great customer service. Thanks Jumpshack.

[Hooknswoop 19]

I just thought of a way to over-tighten almost any rig without breaking the seal, but it would leave evidence of tampering.

I don't know if that is the trick that NightJumper heard, but if it is, 1) It isn't common knowledge and 2) It leaves evidence of tampering whereas overtighting a pop top rig does not.

I PM'd NightJumper my idea and we'll see if that is the trick he heard.

Derek

[cbain 0]

Getting back to the orginal questions.

I sold my Javelin and bought a 2K3. I love my new Racer. I have to say that Jumpshack has some of the best cusomer service out there. I'm very hard to fit and Nancy spent hours making sure they got it right.

I like the pin protection on a Racer better. I like the comfort of a Racer. I can dump at altitude and be comfortable for the whole ride. I also have to agree that the 2K3 is extremely freefly friendly. On my Javelin the riser covers and main closing flap would come open on a regular basis. The first couple jumps on the 2K3 the riser covers didn't even come open on opening until they were broken in a little.

On the rigger part of it. My husband is my rigger and he used to work at Jumpshack. He prefers packing Racers to other rigs, less tools required, and he can make them look great. He also has mentioned to me that Jumpshack offers free riggers training so there's no excuse for a rigger to not know how to pack a Racer.

And the last point is cost. Racers are probably one of the most affordable rigs on the market to get custom made, especially the Shadow Racer 2K3, which is what I got with a couple of personalized options (like the design on the poptop just cost extra for the embroidery).

Now for the canopy. Before settling on the Stilleto I would recommend demoing the Firebolt from Jumpshack as well. I jump a 164. It's also an ellipitcal canopy like the stilleto but has better opening charecteristics in my opinion. I also like the flare on the Firebolt due to the double brake lines there's a lot of bottom end flare. I wouldn't say there's anything wrong with the Stilletto it's just like other people have mentioned, it's an older design and there are better (as in newer technology) canopies available now.

Just my 2 cents, take it with a grain of salt I suppose.

Christina