risers flaps on a javelin

[ffp1974 0]

I need to get my flaps fixed and called javelin. My rig was maufactered in 91 and is in excellent condition. But Javelin said he was grounding rigs that old.

I love my container, just want to fix my flaps so they won't come out all of the time. Any suggestions?

Thanks Francis

[Jib 0]

Is it just the riser covers or is there another reason?

--------------------------------------------------
the depth of his depravity sickens me.
-- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt

[quade 3]

Do you know any local riggers?

I can't imagine an issue that they wouldn't be able to deal with.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[bch7773 0]

i have a 94 javelin, and my rigger did a couple quick modifications that took about an hour, and about 20-30 bucks i think. now those flaps NEVER come open, where before the changes those damn flaps would pop open all the time

MB 3528, RB 1182

[hookitt 0]

What was the explanation that "Javelin" gave as to why they were grounding rigs that old?

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[3ringheathen 0]

I had a rigger replace a worn tuck tab on my '95 Javelin. It wasn't too difficult.

If you're not freeflying, investing in risers with secure toggle stows *might* be adequate, or at least a good stop gap measure.

If you are freeflying, there are probably other concerns on a rig that old. Consult a local rigger, and start budgeting for newer gear.

You should seek clarification:
Is there something about the design of that rig they're concerned about or is it just that it's 13 years old?

-Josh

If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me*
*Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

[darkwing 4]

I'd like to hear the real deal from javelin. If a manufacturer says a rig is "grounded" it could easily be interpreted as meaning not airworthy, and no rigger could legally pack it. It would be very difficult for a rigger to defend packing something the manufacturer said not to.

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[Hooknswoop 19]

That is very odd, since about 2 years ago they did some work to Javelin S/N 016 and didn't bat an eye. I would like to see something in writing form Subn Path.

Derek

[funks 1]

Quote

What was the explanation that "Javelin" gave as to why they were grounding rigs that old?

I would like to know the same seeing that i jump an older javelin.

[ffp1974 0]

Well I called Sunpath and during the discussion I told him I thought my rig was made in 85. But after I pulled the reserve pack card, I found that it was made in 91.

Anyway, I was asking about the fix they were doing a couple of years ago and he just hesitated and said that with a rig that old he would probably ground it. Said he had already grounded some rigs from 90 and 91.

Mainly he was talking about they don't last forever and the webbing would wear out...

In my pursuit of trying to find a replacement container, most of the riggers I talked to laughed when I told them what I was told. They all commented on the rig being grounded just because of age.

Anyway my container is in good shape and I have only put 300 jumps on it. I don't know how many jumps before I bought it.

But if my rigger will pack my rig, I cant imagine it wouldn't be airworthy.

It is only the riser covers that are giving me fits. What ever material they are made out of has curled and bent. It won't stay folded down.

Thanks FF

[mjosparky 3]

Another:

Real Name: No name entered.
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Container: No container entered.
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Reserve Canopy: No reserve entered.
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Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[riggerrob 558]

In defence of sun Path ...

The first few Javelins had Velcro riser covers, which stay closed as long as you replace the Velcro on a regular basis.

Early tuck tabs were problematic. The only way to guarantee that they will stay closed is to replace them with a newer pattern, which involves replacing the main side flaps, yoke, etc. a very expensive process.

No one expects nylon to last forever.

For example, at the last CSPA Riggers' Course, we specifically avoided discussing rigs more than 20 years old. Manufacturers "life" their equipment at 4, 8, 12, 13, 15 or 20 years. Some of those "lives" are linked to factory inspections and some are "grounding" dates.
Equipment lifespans are determined by 2 factors, first, factories discretely say that they have subsequently learned how to build better gear and don't want to see their oldest/most awkward gear in the air.
Secondly, service lives are educated guesses at how long nylon will last in service. No one expects nylon to last forever. For example, if your ship a tandem main back to the factory for an 8-year inspection, you are in the wrong business. In other words, if you are not making 200 jumps per year on a tandem rig (total 1600 jumps over 8 years) and have not worn it out, then you need a new marketing plan.

Finally, closet queens are an anomaly, an awkward embarassment. Sometimes they are airworthy, sometimes they can be updated by spending lots of money and sometimes they are just "old technology."

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

Well I called Sunpath and during the discussion I told him I thought my rig was made in 85.

That is different from a rig made in 1991. A rig made in 85 is now 19 (soon to be 20) years old. It's tired. I haven't heard of U.S. manufacturers putting a life-limit (like a Cypres) on gear before. It would be nice, for me, if they did say 20-years is the max, but I do wonder about the legality of it. Yes, riggers must folllow the manufacturer's instructions for packing the reserve, but they don't have to wear a pink rig while packing if that is in the instructions too. There are limits to 'manufacturer's instructions'.

AAD's are different since they must be maintained in accordance with the manufacturer's requirments.

Sounds like a good discussion for PIA.

Derek

[ffp1974 0]

Sorry, didn't think about not having my profile filled out. How this helps.

[mjosparky 3]

Quote

In defence of sun Path ...

The first few Javelins had Velcro riser covers, which stay closed as long as you replace the Velcro on a regular basis.

Early tuck tabs were problematic. The only way to guarantee that they will stay closed is to replace them with a newer pattern, which involves replacing the main side flaps, yoke, etc. a very expensive process.

No one expects nylon to last forever.

For example, at the last CSPA Riggers' Course, we specifically avoided discussing rigs more than 20 years old. Manufacturers "life" their equipment at 4, 8, 12, 13, 15 or 20 years. Some of those "lives" are linked to factory inspections and some are "grounding" dates.
Equipment lifespans are determined by 2 factors, first, factories discretely say that they have subsequently learned how to build better gear and don't want to see their oldest/most awkward gear in the air.
Secondly, service lives are educated guesses at how long nylon will last in service. No one expects nylon to last forever. For example, if your ship a tandem main back to the factory for an 8-year inspection, you are in the wrong business. In other words, if you are not making 200 jumps per year on a tandem rig (total 1600 jumps over 8 years) and have not worn it out, then you need a new marketing plan.

Finally, closet queens are an anomaly, an awkward embarassment. Sometimes they are airworthy, sometimes they can be updated by spending lots of money and sometimes they are just "old technology."

Rob,

And thirdly, is that a word, they would like to limit their liability.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[councilman24 36]

Derek, Derek, Derek (head slowly shaking)

PIA tried supporting a life limit and, as I've said before, the burns are still healing. We talk about it at EVERY PIA meeting.

For everyone's information while the symposium is every two years, PIA meets twice a year. These meetings are where the real "work" of PIA gets done. The symposium is something we put on both as a fund raiser and a service. BTW, ALL are welcome to attend 98% of PIA's semiannual meetings. Only one small part while we're voting on new members is a closed session. The PIA business meeting starts at 9:00 am Tuesday Jan 11th and runs through Thursday noon, BEFORE THE SYMPOSIUM STARTS. The agenda should be on the website now or shortly.

It would make all our lives easier if there were life limits on everything, but there aren't. Many manufacturers DO quote a life limit when bidding/filling military contracts because they're required in the bid.

Many riggers impose their own age limits. But they differ and the practice is controversial.

Did they make Javelins in 1985? Hmmm, the oldest ones I've serviced are 91 I think. I'll have to check my history reference, my old ParaGear catalogs.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[ffp1974 0]

What would you recomend on how to solve my flap problem?

[skybytch 259]

Quote

Did they

IIRC, I've seen a 1989 DOM on a Javelin.

• Quote

[mark 102]

Javelin #515 a J5 manufactured in June 1989. Still in service. Complying with mandatory SPSB 03032000 Rev B required replacing (instead of just modifying) the main closing loop retainer, but the alternative was grounding.

Mark

[councilman24 36]

Not enough information to offer an opinion. The plastic stiffeners may be broke/wore out, the reserve may be incompatable with the rig, the reserve pack job may be contributing to the issue, or it may be one with flaps that just don't work.

So, without seeing it I can't offer an opinion. And neither can Sunpath, although there guess would be better than mine.

Lisa,

yeah now that I think of it I've seen 1989, but I don't think any earlier.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE