Ethics and organ donation...

[Nataly 38]

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You cannot opt out. The only options are opt in now, already opted in, will opt in later. And the code is hidden amongst a bunch of other codes relating to what sort of vehicles you are permitted to drive and under what circumstances. That is an entirely unethical setup.

Whether one wants to donate or not, the decision should remain explicitly with the person concerned. There is something tyrannical about unaccountable bureaucrats introducing a process which in effect gives them ownership of the human body. A change of this magnitude should have gone through the scrutiny of full parliamentary debate.

I have just called the DVLA and they have told me if I send the old licence back, they can re-issue one without the "115" code (for free), but there is no other way of doing it. Pretty sneaky if you ask me... Nowhere does it say this on their site, or on the NHS Organ Donor site, et cetera. Guess they don't want you to know you can opt out, and they don't want to make it too easy either.

Forced consent is not consent, in my opinion.

"There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse."
- Chris Hadfield
« Sors le martinet et flagelle toi indigne contrôleuse de gestion. »
- my boss

[adagen 0]

Totally agree it is underhand. Apparently the current government has a behaviouralist group dedicated to thinking up this sort of thing. If you can get BBC radio iplayer there is a BBC Analysis programme on Nudge Theory available for the next few days. At about the 18 minute mark an Australian asks a question about the ethics of including organ donation on the licence application. The response is just a little bit evasive.

Anne

[rehmwa 2]

IMO - the default position on ANY topic should be 'government leaves me alone'.

for this topic specifically - The choice to "opt in" for organ donation should be available, and very clear for an individual.
The choice to actively "opt out" can be on the same form so it's super clear.

So those options should be offered and very, VERY, clear to the individual.

The decision for "nothing entered"? Someone dies and they neither opted out or in, specifically? It's up to the person's heirs. No heirs? then I don't much care at that point.

No where in the process should the government make a default decision on this. Absolutely criminal if the gov does it in a sneaky and underhanded way.

I don't care one bit about the "why" or "why not" arguments. Each person should decide for themselves (or their heirs) and their reasons are their own.

I choose to donate - I CANNOT choose for anyone else - directly or via legislation - that's just wrong. (Frankly, I think the heirs should be able to sell the organs for profit as they see fit - but that's another story altogether. )

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Abedy 0]

And the students who suffer a myocardial infarction (and die subsequently) hopefully also donate their bodies...
Aren't I sarcastic today, heh?

The sky is not the limit. The ground is.

The Society of Skydiving Ducks

[Divalent 91]

I think it should be an option to either opt-in (you are a donor) or opt out, with the default being "no".

But I also think that, should you ever need an organ, you don't get one unless you had *previously* opted in when you were healthy.

Many people who need an organ don't get it because one is not available. It's only fair: if you don't want other to get your organs when you die, you have no right to get a scarce organ from someone else who did donate.

[Nataly 38]

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I think it should be an option to either opt-in (you are a donor) or opt out, with the default being "no".

But I also think that, should you ever need an organ, you don't get one unless you had *previously* opted in when you were healthy.

Many people who need an organ don't get it because one is not available. It's only fair: if you don't want other to get your organs when you die, you have no right to get a scarce organ from someone else who did donate.

I donate blood all the time... Should it only go to other people who have previously given blood??? No way. Imagine the waste if it worked that way...

"There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse."
- Chris Hadfield
« Sors le martinet et flagelle toi indigne contrôleuse de gestion. »
- my boss

[Divalent 91]

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...But I also think that, should you ever need an organ, you don't get one unless you had *previously* opted in when you were healthy.

Many people who need an organ don't get it because one is not available. It's only fair: if you don't want other to get your organs when you die, you have no right to get a scarce organ from someone else who did donate.

I donate blood all the time... Should it only go to other people who have previously given blood??? No way. Imagine the waste if it worked that way...

If it got to the point where people who needed blood were dying because the supply was so tight (as *IS* the case for organ transplants) because so few people donated blood, then yes, I'd say they should do it for blood too. Thankfully, that is not the case.

But that is the point of the requirement: more people would donate their organs (increasing the supply) if they knew that would be the only way to get an organ for themselves if they ever needed one.

[labrys 0]

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But I also think that, should you ever need an organ, you don't get one unless you had *previously* opted in when you were healthy.

I'm an organ donor and an Atheist. I acknowledge that there are people out there who are not organ donors because of religious beliefs. I would not begrudge such a person one of my organs.

Owned by Remi #?

[Divalent 91]

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But I also think that, should you ever need an organ, you don't get one unless you had *previously* opted in when you were healthy.

I'm an organ donor and an Atheist. I acknowledge that there are people out there who are not organ donors because of religious beliefs. I would not begrudge such a person one of my organs.

Nor would I, if my donated organ would otherwise go to waste. Unfortunately, it is the case that donor status has no impact right now on ones ability to get an organ, and yet people are dying waiting for an available organ. The "I refuse to donate mine; but I'll take yours if I need it" person might get the organ and live, which often means a "I'm willing to donate mine" person doesn't get it, and dies.

If I had a choice, I'd prefer my liver went to someone who also had agreed to be a donor in advance, because in a different world it might have been me needing theirs.

Vanishingly few people refuse to donate for bonafide religious reasons. Most people consciously refuse for fear they will be "terminated" to get their organs when there is still a chance of saving their life. Most others don't do it because they just don't what to consider the issue. Signing up as a donor when healthy vastly increases the chances that your organs will actaully be able to be used.

[labrys 0]

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nfortunately, it is the case that donor status has no impact right now on ones ability to get an organ, and yet people are dying waiting for an available organ. The "I refuse to donate mine; but I'll take yours if I need it" person might get the organ and live, which often means a "I'm willing to donate mine" person doesn't get it, and dies.

That's an approach that assumes that people who donate deserve to live more than people who don't. The decision to donate or not isn't always an educated one. How many donors organs go to waste?

I'm just saying that I don't want to pass judgement on potential recipients or decide what intent they might have. To me, it's too complicated.

Owned by Remi #?

[Squeak 17]

Well at the end of the day, if Im donating my organs I'M DEAD, so unless my take on life is wrong.
I'M DEAD so wont be in any position to care either way what happens to my decomposing bits.
Use then to save a live, enhance another, Hell Play football with them if ya want, I'M DEAD.

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[labrys 0]

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Well at the end of the day, if Im donating my organs I'M DEAD, so unless my take on life is wrong.
I'M DEAD so wont be in any position to care either way what happens to my decomposing bits.
Use then to save a live, enhance another, Hell Play football with them if ya want, I'M DEAD.

Noooo.... you must continue to pass judgement

Owned by Remi #?

[ryoder 1,412]

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Well at the end of the day, if Im donating my organs I'M DEAD, so unless my take on life is wrong.
I'M DEAD so wont be in any position to care either way what happens to my decomposing bits.
Use then to save a live, enhance another, Hell Play football with them if ya want, I'M DEAD.

I say we take Dead Squeak to Bernies for the weekend;
Who's with me?

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[Squeak 17]

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Well at the end of the day, if Im donating my organs I'M DEAD, so unless my take on life is wrong.
I'M DEAD so wont be in any position to care either way what happens to my decomposing bits.
Use then to save a live, enhance another, Hell Play football with them if ya want, I'M DEAD.

I say we take Dead Squeak to Bernies for the weekend;
Who's with me?

I'M IN

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[Divalent 91]

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... That's an approach that assumes that people who donate deserve to live more than people who don't. The decision to donate or not isn't always an educated one. ...

I'm just saying that I don't want to pass judgement on potential recipients or decide what intent they might have. To me, it's too complicated.

The point of making organs only available to those that agreed to donate (or, if you want: give a huge priority to those that donate) is to give people an incentive to donate in advance, so that the supply of organs can increase to a level needed for demand. Right now people die because there is no organ available, and many people get less optimum tissue-matched transplants because of the poor supply.

To me, it's a matter of fairness; kind of a social contract thing: no one knows if they will need a transplant, yet everyone would like to be able to get one if needed. If you are a donor, you are contributing to the common good, the pool of donated organs. If you are a non-donor, you are not.

I have no problem with anyone deciding not to be a donor (for whatever reason). But I also have no problem saying that they should not have the right (or should have a much lower priority) to take from a limited pool that they weren't willing to contribute to. I don't say that a non-donor deserves to die, but I do say that someone who was willing to contribute to the pool of resources that saves people deserves to take some of those resources over someone who was not willing to contribute to that resource.

[FYI, There are 16,000 people on the US liver transplant waiting list because there are not enough donated livers, and many many of them will die before they get to the top.]

[Andy9o8 0]

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But I also think that, should you ever need an organ, you don't get one unless you had *previously* opted in when you were healthy.

I'm an organ donor and an Atheist. I acknowledge that there are people out there who are not organ donors because of religious beliefs. I would not begrudge such a person one of my organs.

This is a serious question: Would you begrudge your organ going to a despicable fucking asshole?

[labrys 0]

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This is a serious question: Would you begrudge your organ going to a despicable fucking asshole?

No. I think that part of the decision about being a donor is accepting that you don't have a choice about where the organ goes. If I donate, there's a chance that a total asshat might get one of my organs. I hope it's my liver... but there's always also a chance it would go to a wonderful person.

If I don't donate, no one gets anything. I can live (pun intended) with the odds.

Owned by Remi #?

[turtlespeed 212]

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This is a serious question: Would you begrudge your organ going to a despicable fucking asshole?

No. I think that part of the decision about being a donor is accepting that you don't have a choice about where the organ goes. If I donate, there's a chance that a total asshat might get one of my organs. I hope it's my liver... but there's always also a chance it would go to a wonderful person.

If I don't donate, no one gets anything. I can live (pun intended) with the odds.

Not that you care - but my opinion is that I would absolutely like the power to decide.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[Squeak 17]

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This is a serious question: Would you begrudge your organ going to a despicable fucking asshole?

Hey lawyer dude.
YOU'RE FUCKING DEAD, you cant begrudge anything

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[Andy9o8 0]

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This is a serious question: Would you begrudge your organ going to a despicable fucking asshole?

Hey lawyer dude.
YOU'RE FUCKING DEAD, you cant begrudge anything

Legally, dead people extol and begrudge all the time. That's what wills and trusts are all about.

[labrys 0]

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Legally, dead people extol and begrudge all the time. That's what wills and trusts are all about.

Touche!

Owned by Remi #?

[BillyVance 34]

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Well at the end of the day, if Im donating my organs I'M DEAD, so unless my take on life is wrong.
I'M DEAD so wont be in any position to care either way what happens to my decomposing bits.
Use then to save a live, enhance another, Hell Play football with them if ya want, I'M DEAD.

I say we take Dead Squeak to Bernies for the weekend;
Who's with me?

I'M IN

Don't forget the voodoo black magic.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[rehmwa 2]

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But I also think that, should you ever need an organ, you don't get one unless you had *previously* opted in when you were healthy.

I like that. But prefer the turn "return on investment" over "social contract".

If you are not a donor, you are on the bottom half of the list behind those that are. But ahead of total assholes, public smokers, people that run red lights and stop signs, soccer fans, and style and accuracy fanatics (both of them)..

(i've been picking on packers and CrW dogs too much lately so thought I'd switch it up)

and, seriously, direct family goes to the top of the list no matter what

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[adagen 0]

It's never that simple, especially the way it's being handled in the UK. It's not just a question of people benefiting from a national health service donating their organs to it.

The NHS is in fact selling some donated organs abroad, to people who have not contributed to the NHS through lifelong taxation or organ donation commitment.

The UK government is making rather crude use of a technique known as nudge theory in order to manipulate people into signing up for donation without being aware that they have done so. Many people find the ethics of this questionable, and the trial which caught Nat out appears to have been suspended.

To make anything dependent on being signed up for donation is to disadvantage people whose organs are not suitable for donation, as well as people whose religious beliefs oppose donation.

There is currently a high degree of distrust of the UK health set up following a scandal showing major ethical breaches in one particular health trust. The report into that indicated that the evidence and the investigation suggested a significant risk of the problems being much more widespread. (The Francis Report).

And there is the fundamental civil liberties question of whether it is right for the state to attempt to direct citizens in this way, or whether the lead should be from a voluntary organisation which cannot be tempted to use compulsion since it does not have the means.

The way it's being handled hear has made the ethical decision much more complex, and it's resulting in people who might otherwise have signed up for donation choosing not to do so.

Anne