piisfish 135 #26 January 13, 2011 Quote and opening wise, I felt Katana opened much more on heading than x-fire. same rig ? same pilot chute ? comparable fitting in the Dbag ? scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Floflo 0 #27 January 13, 2011 Quote Quote and opening wise, I felt Katana opened much more on heading than x-fire. same rig ? same pilot chute ? comparable fitting in the Dbag ? In my case, yes. Xfire 109 vs Katana 107 in the same rig. Well, to be honest, there is one big difference. Since the day I had to let go my KA in flight, I am more careful with my body position on opening than I was with the Xfire. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #28 January 13, 2011 my crossfire opened beautifully and on heading etc... except when I was jumping it with a PC so old that sometimes I had to pull on the bridle to dislodge the pin scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stayhigh 2 #29 January 13, 2011 I think HMA lines are what makes opening better and on heading.Bernie Sanders for President 2016 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #30 January 13, 2011 Quote i wanted to buy it for an upcoming boogie and its a canopy that seems pretty fun in accordance to the reviews i read. plus id like to try some swooping. so an a 1.1 wingloading would basically kill me? Well,turbulence + collapse can kill you if your piloting skills does not. Quote plus id like to try some swooping You can swoop almost anything reasonable, but you don't really need an elliptical canopy. It would not give any benefit over the extreme slow opening and being prone to collapse. You has been recommended several good and fun canopies. Pick one and be happy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Staso 0 #31 January 14, 2011 Quote Quote The flare on my safire2 is AWESOME I just found the xfire2 to be even more awesome! fair enough! i'm just a little tired of people saying bad stuff about safire2's, how they had a weak flare and how it wasnt a good platform to learn how to swoop on.. or that sabre2's were better for that purpose. seems billvon is the only one more or less to vouch for it. next year, hopefully, i'll get my grabby hands on an XF2, then i'll be able to make a more accurate statement regarding flare-power, and which was even MORE awesome! i went from sabre to safire2 to crossfire2. safire was an awesome canopy. much better opening and felt a lot more agile then sabre. good glide, very good flare. the only thing about it - very short recovery arc, so you need to be close to the ground if you want to swoop it and i used to scary people whipping 180 low to the ground. but as long as you aware of the arc, it could be done safely. on both of my safire2 and crossfire2 i had a slider one size down to speed up the openings - they were too slow to my taste. -- it's not about defying gravity; it's how hard you can abuse it. speed skydiving it is ... Speed Skydiving Forum Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #32 January 14, 2011 Quote Quote Quote The flare on my safire2 is AWESOME I just found the xfire2 to be even more awesome! fair enough! i'm just a little tired of people saying bad stuff about safire2's, how they had a weak flare and how it wasnt a good platform to learn how to swoop on.. or that sabre2's were better for that purpose. seems billvon is the only one more or less to vouch for it. next year, hopefully, i'll get my grabby hands on an XF2, then i'll be able to make a more accurate statement regarding flare-power, and which was even MORE awesome! i went from sabre to safire2 to crossfire2. safire was an awesome canopy. much better opening and felt a lot more agile then sabre. good glide, very good flare. the only thing about it - very short recovery arc, so you need to be close to the ground if you want to swoop it and i used to scary people whipping 180 low to the ground. but as long as you aware of the arc, it could be done safely. on both of my safire2 and crossfire2 i had a slider one size down to speed up the openings - they were too slow to my taste. i'm only up to 90'q, and i'm turning around 60-80 metres.. the lower is the better end; it IS scary! “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eetula 0 #33 January 14, 2011 QuoteI saw girl flying an underloaded crossfire (about 1.1). It collapsed at a very low level from wake tubulalance off a tandem canopy. She was about 4 metres to the side and about 6-8 metres behind (probably right in the wingtip vortex), this is a position that anyone could end up in on a busy landing area. Her (left side) canopy did not reinflate and she severely broke her leg. the right hand side kept flying and the left side just tuned to shit. she did not fall but was flung by the canopy into the ground. It was very distubing to watch and her compund fracture was infected as the bone stabbed into the ground. she was in hospital for some time with complications... Crossfires have a semi closed nose and require more airspeed/loading to recover from such a collapse. I would reccomend that you do not purchase a crossfire unltil you load it at 1.4 or more. From that wingloading to just over 2.0 they are terrific canopies and will reinflate just like any other canopy. My guess is that this issue is the reason for the minimum wingloading on them, but I may be wrong... was the canopy xf1 or xf2? didn't the first version have some kind of problems causing collapsing that was fixed with new trim in lines or something? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #34 January 14, 2011 Quotewas the canopy xf1 or xf2? didn't the first version have some kind of problems causing collapsing that was fixed with new trim in lines or something? I believe it was a xf2 but I am not entirely sure. There was a problem with a batch of xf1's that were made in the USA, the canopies made in the spain and NZ factories were not effected . It was not a desgn flaw but a manufacture flaw. The resulting incident/s created much bad PR for Icarus and as far as I am awre the XF2 was developed to ease those concerns. Your question highlights how ingrained the mis-information has become about this. I did 800 jumps on a crossfire 1, 109 and learned to swoop on that canopy, it was very stable and handled turbulance very well, It was also loaded adequately."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #35 January 14, 2011 Quote I did 800 jumps on a crossfire 1, 109 and learned to swoop on that canopy, it was very stable and handled turbulance very well, It was also loaded adequately. Agreed. I currently jump an "adequately loaded" original model XF, manf out of the NZ plant - and find it an excellent (and quite enjoyable) canopy to fly, in absolutely any (including turbulent) wind condition without issue or concern. To the very Original Poster in this thread: 1. Have the proper experience already under your belt to allow you to fly this HP wing "adequately loaded" in the 1st place. "Downloading" it below @ 1.4-1 is not the answer with a Crossfire (either original model or XF-2) to make it more docile at all. Doing that just does not linearly translate well to the wing's design/planform as you would otherwise with some other canopies think (or are thinking/presuming) at all that way, for you to do that. - FWIW.coitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlindBrick 0 #36 January 17, 2011 Quoteseems billvon is the only one more or less to vouch for it. I'll vouch for it. My Safire II loaded a 1.35 does an awesome job on the bottom end. I can come straight in on a no wind day when the density alttiude is over three grand and the canopy will give me a long surf followed by a two to three step landing. Not bad considering it's slowing down 350+ lbs. -Blind"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rover 9 #37 January 17, 2011 It was a Crossfire 2 129 flown by a sub 300 jump person with cameras on to vid tandems. It was her 2nd jump on the canopy. The person in question had - in my opinion - a rather inflated belief in her abilities and is to this day paying the price. Don't let your ambitions get in the way of your abilities.... 2 wrongs don't make a right - but 3 lefts do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stayhigh 2 #38 January 17, 2011 Do you think she would've done better flying slower safire thru the canopy wake???? I've seen even 2.0+ wing loaded velo fold in half due to canopy wake.Bernie Sanders for President 2016 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #39 January 17, 2011 QuoteDo you think she would've done better flying slower safire thru the canopy wake???? I've seen even 2.0+ wing loaded velo fold in half due to canopy wake. Yes. If there is enough internal pressure in a ram air airfoil that it keeps on flying... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stayhigh 2 #40 January 18, 2011 How does safire keep more internal pressure vs crossfire???Bernie Sanders for President 2016 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #41 January 18, 2011 QuoteHow does safire keep more internal pressure vs crossfire??? Crossfire2 has a semi-closed nose, it was designed for higher speeds/higher WL. That airfoil needs more speed for keep in flying stable. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rugby82 0 #42 January 18, 2011 I had a Safire2 - 139 and now a Crossfire2 - 139 loaded at 1.8 and you can really see the difference in airfoil. When I fly half brakes on the Safire2 the airfoil still seems very rigid. When I fly half brakes on the Crossfire2 you can see the semi-closed parts of the nose get soft and flap around a bit. This would probably be the same when loading the Crossfire2 around 1.0. I even noticed much more bumping in slow flight modes on the Crossfire2 than on the Safire2. I really love the Crossfire2, especially for swooping but due to the design I would want to load it at below 1.5.Blue skies! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #43 January 19, 2011 QuoteIt was a Crossfire 2 129 flown by a sub 300 jump person with cameras on to vid tandems. It was her 2nd jump on the canopy. The person in question had - in my opinion - a rather inflated belief in her abilities and is to this day paying the price. Don't let your ambitions get in the way of your abilities....Unsure Assuming you are talking about the same person and the same incident, I know it was not her second jump on the canopy. Though I agree with most of what you said. I witnessed the incident and had to retrieve the camera helmet off her. When it happened she was flying straight and there was very little wind. Some said it was dust devil but I did not see a dust devil, I beleive it was wake turbulance, and no matter if she was extremely experienced or ( in this case) not... it was the canopes inabilty to reinflate or its tendency to collapse at such a low wingloading that was the problem. she could have avoided being there, but in that particulr landing area it is very common to see people landing with this proximity, and usually without a problem."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stayhigh 2 #44 January 19, 2011 I still don't think that it was low wing loaded x-fire that causeed the problem. Even vengence with airlock or velo loaded 2+ will drop 20 30 feet when it is hit with right amount of canopy wake at right timimng. She just happened to be at wrong place at wrong time not because of x-fire's closed nose. My x-fire 169 folded in half when my friend flew right thru the dust devil around 20 30 feet over the ground and he was loading it at 1.1 and luckly canopy re inflated in time to have enough flair. It made a loud whiping noise. There was a video of this and we all concluded that it was pilot's fault for flying it staight into the middle of dust devil. Turbulant air will cause even the solid fixed wing to lose lift. And you have nylon over your head. Best thing to do in this situation is to advoid. Advoid flying behind big canopy and when you see large dust devil everywhere, it is time to take a break for few hours and wait for the air to cool offBernie Sanders for President 2016 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #45 January 19, 2011 >How does safire keep more internal pressure vs crossfire??? It doesn't. The ram-air pressure is determined by airspeed, which in turn is determined by loading and trim. But that's not too much of an issue; most of a canopy's stability comes from lift and drag forces on the lines and the wing, not from its internal pressure. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #46 January 19, 2011 QuoteI still don't think that it was low wing loaded x-fire that causeed the problem. no but it increased the problem. Why do you think xfires have a closed nose in the first place? why do you think there is a minumum wingloading of 2.4?"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #47 January 19, 2011 QuoteQuoteI still don't think that it was low wing loaded x-fire that causeed the problem. no but it increased the problem. Why do you think xfires have a closed nose in the first place? why do you think there is a minumum wingloading of 2.4? i think you meant to say 1.4..“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #48 January 20, 2011 Quotei think you meant to say 1.4.. Yes I did, that was a typo. I actually jump my wifes crossfire2 89 loaded @ 2.4 from time to time and I can say the performance definately drops off, the recommended w/l's of a crosssfire are defiantely good ones."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
danielcroft 2 #49 January 20, 2011 More closed nosed is meant to increase aerodynamic efficiency or some such isn't it? Laminar flow and all that? (See if you can pick the guys that's guessing... ) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #50 January 20, 2011 Quote More closed nosed is meant to increase aerodynamic efficiency or some such isn't it? Laminar flow and all that? Yes but also controls the openings. QuoteOur nose design not only improves the canopy's aerodynamics, it assists in controlling the openings. (See if you can pick the guys that's guessing... Crazy) What do you suggest controlling the openings means, and why would a minimum loading of 1.4 be suggested, do you think?"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
