Safire 2 vs Pilot from Aerodyne

[nicolesser 0]

I`m wondering wich canopy is better to change my spectre 135. Im looking for a better poerformance canopy but not so aggressive as crossfires,katanas or those.
Who has some jump experiences in this to canopies ? Please your comments

nicolas
Orbital Flyer

Orbital Flyer

[phoenixlpr 0]

I have a Pilot. It flies nice lands soft. What WL are you planning to fly on? Over 1.5 I`d go for Vision instead. Pilot has a quite strong front riser pressure, it builds up fast, short recovery arc, so thats not a swoop beast. Get some demos!

[GravityGirl 0]

Pilot:

As an instructor, you'll appreciate the glide it has coming back to the DZ if you are last out. Does well in the turns. Openings are sweet. The point that tips the scales with your comparison, IMHO is the flare.

Are you in a position to be able to demo either canopy?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[fffff 0]

I've orderd a Pilot 124. After jumping different sizes starting with a 140, to a 132 and a 124. I found it a very nice canopy, the openings are great and on heading. Because i make camerajumps this is a big pro for me. The flare is good and you can build up good speed for a nice swoop with a frontriser turn. The riser pressure is not building up like the stilleto i'm jumping now.

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IOver 1.5 I`d go for Vision instead.

I don't think so, its much more elliptic and therefore more agressive. If your not looking for a X-fire kind of canopy, i would not go for the Vision. And why not load a pilot more than 1.5, it still flies great with a 1.8 wingload.

Best thing is to demo one to find out yourself.

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NIL VOLENTIBUS ARDUUM.
(nothing is difficult for those who really want it)

[dgskydive 0]

Big difference between the Pilot and the Vision.

THe vision is a good canopy as well, but if you are looking for something fairly docile and reliable get the Pilot. You can fly it like a bat out of hell or come in nice and straight. I disagree about the riser pressure on the risers. I think it is very light and had no problem pulling them down. If you are underloading it you may be having a hard time pulling them down, but 90% off the people I have talked to and sold them to have commentited that they are really light on the risers and toggles.

Dom

[kelpdiver 2]

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I disagree about the riser pressure on the risers. I think it is very light and had no problem pulling them down. If you are underloading it you may be having a hard time pulling them down, but 90% off the people I have talked to and sold them to have commentited that they are really light on the risers and toggles.

What would underloading it be?

My container order is on the way out and I have 5 or 6 weeks to find a main now, new or used. But target WL is 1.1 (210).

[ianmdrennan 2]

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What would underloading it be

This is exactly why I hate the word underloading. It's gotten an implied negative meaning and starts making people second guess their decisions (maybe even increase their loading?), this is not the case.

You can safely jump a canopy at less than 1:1 no matter what you might read on these forums.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[sundevil777 94]

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This is exactly why I hate the word underloading. It's gotten an implied negative meaning

It should be called 'normal loading', or 'I want to be jumping 20 years from now without a limp loading'.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[nate_1979 9]

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This is exactly why I hate the word underloading. It's gotten an implied negative meaning

It should be called 'normal loading', or 'I want to be jumping 20 years from now without a limp loading'.

Now I like that one... I've been told I should get a smaller canopy more times than I can count.. I thank those who tell me "Stay where YOU want to stay and are comfortable", I cant afford to hurt myself, so I will limit that risk as much as possible

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

[lewmonst 0]

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This is exactly why I hate the word underloading. It's gotten an implied negative meaning

It should be called 'normal loading', or 'I want to be jumping 20 years from now without a limp loading'.

Now that has a negative meaning and implies that people comfortable with higher wingloadings are reckless. Also not a fair judgement or label to place on others.

peace
lew

http://www.exitshot.com

[mattjw916 2]

I like the writeup on the Icarus website... I have only jumped canopies in the Class 1-3 range but was most happy with w/l in the ~1.1:1 range because they had better penetration into the wind amongst other things.

The range of opinions on canopy sizing is staggering to say the least!

http://www.icaruscanopies.com/choosing.htm

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[kelpdiver 2]

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I like the writeup on the Icarus website... I have only jumped canopies in the Class 1-3 range but was most happy with w/l in the ~1.1:1 range because they had better penetration into the wind amongst other things.

The range of opinions on canopy sizing is staggering to say the least!

http://www.icaruscanopies.com/choosing.htm

Ah, that looks like the same division used in the Survival Book. Contrast that with the suggested WL chart for PD. Loading 1:1 is Intermediate. Loading at 1.1:1 max is Advanced.

The other descriptor that drives me batty is "higher performance canopy." For a low timer, that can mean it is a better chute, or a more dangerous one, or both.

[dgskydive 0]

At a 1.1 wingloading it will take a bit more force to pull down the risers then at a higer wingloading. Less mass under the canopy makes it harder to pull the risers down. It doesn't mean you are doing anything wrong. Just gonna be more pressure on any canopy to pull on the risers.

FOr those that hate the term....sorry.

Dom

[darkwing 4]

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At a 1.1 wingloading it will take a bit more force to pull down the risers then at a higer wingloading. Less mass under the canopy makes it harder to pull the risers down. It doesn't mean you are doing anything wrong. Just gonna be more pressure on any canopy to pull on the risers.

OK, I'm a physicist, and one thing is pretty certain here. From straight flight, the tension in all four risers adds up to the suspended weight. Lighter load results in less tension. If that isn't true I have to give all of my degrees back.

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[BlindBrick 0]

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OK, I'm a physicist, and one thing is pretty certain here. From straight flight, the tension in all four risers adds up to the suspended weight. Lighter load results in less tension. If that isn't true I have to give all of my degrees back.

But what after the canopy leaves straight flght. I'm not a swoop god, but I've done front riser stuff up high with big canopies and it was a lot easier to due front riser turns on a 250 as opposed to a 300.

-Blind

"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it."

[dragon2 0]

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OK, I'm a physicist, and one thing is pretty certain here. From straight flight, the tension in all four risers adds up to the suspended weight. Lighter load results in less tension. If that isn't true I have to give all of my degrees back.

But what after the canopy leaves straight flght. I'm not a swoop god, but I've done front riser stuff up high with big canopies and it was a lot easier to due front riser turns on a 250 as opposed to a 300.

-Blind

Maybe it's because the lines of a bigger canopy are longer, so you're pulling relatively lower so need more force?

Also, I think not all canopies have the same amount of load on the front and on the backrisers. Otherwise, there wouldn't be any difference in the force needed for frontrisering a samesize spectre/stiletto.
Or am I talking nonsense here? (I'm tired )

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[dgskydive 0]

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OK, I'm a physicist, and one thing is pretty certain here. From straight flight, the tension in all four risers adds up to the suspended weight. Lighter load results in less tension. If that isn't true I have to give all of my degrees back.

All I know is the more you load the canopy the easier it is to pull on the risers. I was always told it is because the suspended weight makes a difference.

Also the trim may have something to do with it. Are you assuming that the load on all four risers is the same? I don't think that is the case with most canopies. They all have different trim to them.

Example. I jumped a Tandem rig once solo. It was hard as hell to pull even the toggles down ( I was worked by the time I got to the ground). I jumped as a passenger on that same rig and it was much easier to pull the toggles with all the extra weight.

Dom

[diablopilot 2]

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OK, I'm a physicist, and one thing is pretty certain here. From straight flight, the tension in all four risers adds up to the suspended weight. Lighter load results in less tension. If that isn't true I have to give all of my degrees back.

You're absolutly right.

Another thing that must be considered here is the same jumper under a smaller canopy is going to feel that the riser pressuers are less even though the wing loading is higher simply because they are having to deform and hold less total square footage of canopy.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[billvon 2,467]

>I was always told it is because the suspended weight makes a difference.

It's all suspended weight. That's what you are pulling against when you pull down front risers.

I have a Crossfire 1 109 that has the highest front riser pressure I have ever felt. If I crank on one riser up high (both hands) I can actually get the rear riser to go slack. Now, compare that to the Pilot 210 I jumped this summer, and the Pilot has much lower front riser pressures. It's all in the trim.

Another factor is dynamic. If you pull down the front riser of a large canopy, you don't change speed much. If you pull down the front riser of a smaller canopy, you drop more rapidly, which is another way to say that you have reduced your lift more (at least until the canopy speeds up and all the forces are back in balance again.) For that short period of time, the pressure on _all_ the risers is less. Less lift=less pressure. It should be noted that, on the average, your lift has to exactly equal your weight from opening to landing, so this effect is temporary at best.