“Hard landing in strong/gusty winds” fatalities

[phoenixlpr 0]

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What would you teach to others regarding jumping in high winds? Let's say someone finds themselves under canopy and the winds have picked up. What now?

Something like:

stay in the upwind sector

Do not fly over anything you are not willing to land on

anticipate the effect of winds on your pattern

think about the 10 times rules of turbulence...

remember the jump end when your canopy is collected(or even when you back in the packing area), not when your feet touches the ground

know your limit of comfort an embrace it

keep your eyes open when you fly your canopy, the conditions can be different from take off

...

[Skyper 0]

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how to jump with higher winds

I respect that you do try to find clean air and that you have your own personal limts, but...

What would you teach to others regarding jumping in high winds? Let's say someone finds themselves under canopy and the winds have picked up. What now?

In the time I was a student and didn´t know much about the high winds, I was thrown from the plane with a too big (student) parachute and the wind was so strong that from the moment of opening I was flying backwards even though I´ve been stearing the chute into the wind... it took me three jumps to realize that there´s nothing wrong with my flying abilities but with the fact that the wind is just too strong and the chute is just too big.

By saying that, I´ve been looking for some "advice" on how to land that big parachute in such windy conditions... and... the only advice I got was:
"try to encrease your descent rate". In other words to get down as soon as possible and avoid the possiblitiy of being "blown away".

I tried two things... making a several subsequent 360 turns to get down as quick as possible and(or) pulling the front-risers down. In that way the front side of the wing is lowerd and you´re descedenting a bit quicker.

BUT, whatever you do - you cannot avoid the last 300ft of flight. Which means that high winds will determine your landing in one way or another. And with a big wing and hard winds that could mean the backward landing.

Edit: Since that time I do not jump when the winds are high.

[phoenixlpr 0]

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In Reply To
I usually willing to jump when there are people willing to jump
This tells me that you let others make your decisions for you. Is that correct?

I rarely jump alone, don't you? Our sport might be a group sport.

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However, I would question how you go about teaching someone to jump in higher winds and how you would handle a situation where the "student" gets hurt while under your high-winds tutelage.

Like anyone else who teaches canopy control.

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Maybe you DO keep an accident report handy at all times regardless of where it comes from.

Relax, we do have enough incident report ready for anyone.

[billvon 2,400]

>Something like:
># stay in the upwind sector . . .

All good suggestions. The jumpers who don't get hurt are the jumpers who know all the things you listed - AND have the good sense not to jump in strong/gusty winds.

[fasted3 0]

Your reply makes sense to me, even though I am among the first to sit out a load for bad weather. There are loads that some should sit out and others can jump safely. If you land without injury, you made the right call. Finding the line is something each of us must do on every jump, and sometimes we don't make the best call. One thing I know for sure is that I never got hurt on a jump I didn't make. I've also sat there thinking, heck, I could have made this jump. Just another reason I love skyding.

But what do I know?

[phoenixlpr 0]

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If you land without injury, you made the right call.

There are still jump you just don't want to repeat.

I prefer to have a plan than improvising all the way down...

[billvon 2,400]

>If you land without injury, you made the right call.

That is absolutely not true. I've made a lot of mistakes; a lot of them resulted in landing without injury. I recall doing a demo at dusk into a boatyard at about 200 jumps where I landed between two rows of stored boats and miraculously walked away without a scratch. If I concluded "I made the right call to do a demo in poor conditions without training into an incredibly tight area" I'd be an idiot.

[davelepka 4]

You say (in several different posts)

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know your limit

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know and embrace your limits

..and then you say-

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I have not ever flown backward

If that's the case, how do you know your limits, or what to do when you exceed them?

Just because things have gone well for you so far does not mean that they will continue to, nor does it mean that your methodology is correct.

Unlike many things in skydiving, we do have the hard numbers to support the connection between high and/or gusty winds, and accidents involving perfectly good canopies. Even if your personal experience goes against those statistics, putting it out there as the correct course of action is ignorant at best, and illustrates that whatever you've learned jumping thus far, good judgement in giving advice is certainly not included.

Be honest, and realistic about what you're doing. You're taking a significantly higher risk in jumping the conditions that you do. Just because you, jumping the equipment you do and with the experience you have choose to do so, the added risk is very real and something a jumper should consider long and hard before gearing up.

A good rule of thumb is that if ANY of the TIs are sitting out due to weather, it's probably not a good day for jumping. Note that I said 'any', not all, because they're are TIs with good judgement, and TIs with bad judgement, and if you wait for the ones with bad judgement to stand down, you'll be jumping in some squirrely shit.

Some jumpers might need to be even more conservative than that, but very few jumpers should be less conservative. If you take an experienced TI who is at the DZ to jump, and waving money in his face won't get him on the plane, it's not a good day to be on the plane. This is the same guy who will be met at the touchdown point and have his canopy collapsed for him by a catcher, when you can't pay him (literally) to skydive, it should mean something.

[popsjumper 2]

You'd be really good at dodgeball. You missed it on all fronts.

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I rarely jump alone, don't you? Our sport might be a group sport.

Really? I rarely jump alone myself, yes.
What I don't do is jump with the bozos who jump in high wind conditions. Apparently, you do.
I sit and watch the youngsters gain experience...and get awfully disgusted when they hurt themselves.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[pilot-one 0]

The wind does not have to be "strong" to be dangerous. Of course that word is very subjective however it's the gusts in particular that are dangerous. I have my limit to less than 10 mph steady wind to gust differential. In other words if the wind is steady at 2 mph and it's gusting to 12 it's no less dangerous than the difference between 15 and 25 as far as canopy collapse risk goes and I don't jump and I don't ever make an exception. Sometimes it's hard but I go home and wait for a better day. I already have enough jumps and don't really need any more so the ones I do get are going to be as risk free as possible.

[vanair 0]

I am one of the biggest wind wimps going. Unless there is a new TM, I am the first one to stand down. I defend that with my history. 36 yrs ago, jumping in winds too high for my T-10, did a backward PLF. Got knocked out, despite hard helmet. My brother ran and jumped on me like a roped steer, rode me while I was getting dragged till he was able to cutaway my main. 12 or 13 yrs ago at the Ranch NY. I was on a mission(one of my pet jokes, I don't say load. I say mission.) We had a dust devil hit us at I think 500-1,000'. I looked down and was trying to figure out what I was looking at. The cameraman had landed but was picked up and spun around. I think he cutaway just off the ground to stay on the ground. He was beat up that's all. one TI got spun around but got reinflated and landed at the other end of the DZ from where it hit him. The other TI got slammed into the parking lot, 3 broken ankles. He also said at one point in the turbulence they actually hit the canopy. I was high man getting rocked, this was I think my 5th real tandem. I looked down at the trees and said please God let me hit the trees so this will stop. I knew a tree landing would be better, canopy snagging branches etc. I said to my student, brace yourself for a hard landing. all of a sudden we got spit out, reinfated, turned 90 right, swooped the gate, thank God or we would have crashed into(thru) the fence. Easy landing, as I was going thru my post landing talk. Every one came running up with concern. Oren was first and was saying, Are you OK? I'm behind the student making motions to shut up, like everything is ok and normal. Student loved it. Had no clue. Later I got the complement of my life when Oren was retelling the story, and says, Here they almost get killed and Van is calmly talking to the student like nothing happened, and said "Man I'm never going to play poker with that guy"
Another one, about 10 yrs ago very windy, finishing gentle left turn to flare. Hit with a side gust, left side of canopy collapsed, Hit HARD, did PLF beside and around student to protect her. I felt like I got beat up with a baseball bat, but nothing broken, She got a broken back, but OK, healed no paralysis. But Murphy was there. The worst person to have that landing with was the one I did. She lied on the waiver, she had spinal bifida. A weak spine.
So yes I am a proud wind wimp.

[craigbey 0]

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I sit and watch the youngsters gain experience...and get awfully disgusted when they hurt themselves.

Do you take the time to explain to the youngsters WHY you're sitting and watching? If so, what do you tell them?

[popsjumper 2]

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I sit and watch the youngsters gain experience...and get awfully disgusted when they hurt themselves.

Do you take the time to explain to the youngsters WHY you're sitting and watching? If so, what do you tell them?

-The ones who will take the time to listen, yes. The others walk away when one gets started or before one finishes.
-Spotting, gusts, canopy collapses, backwards PLF, the nice feeling of having no broken bones.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[shah269 0]

AT my "home" DZ, the very experienced guys do something which I find very nice and very smart. They more or less know where the rough spots are depending on the wind direction and as such will cut indicators into the grass. A smiley face or a target or a spiral.
And will tell us, the new guys, "Today the wind is from the north/south/east/west the best place to land to avoid turbulence is X Y or Z organize your landing patters accordingly."
And it really helps. Not only do you avoid the turbulence but it significantly helps new people such as myself with learning how to set up a coherent landing pattern as well as working on our accuracy.
Thoughts?

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[billvon 2,400]

>They more or less know where the rough spots are depending on the wind
>direction and as such will cut indicators into the grass.

Not a bad idea in areas where the wind changes infrequently. But how do they "erase" the old marks once the wind does change?

[shah269 0]

There are 3 marks on the LZ of the DZ.
So when you get there the instructors will call out which one is the safest for that moment in time.
It's not 100% but it's close enough.

It's the usual stuff that a new guy like me isn't 100% sure on. Such as how the air bends around and twists around trees, buildings or other.

If i see myself going "long" I know I may have a bumpy ride. Not perfect but better than nothing.

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[riggerpaul 1]

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AT my "home" DZ, the very experienced guys do something which I find very nice and very smart. They more or less know where the rough spots are depending on the wind direction and as such will cut indicators into the grass. A smiley face or a target or a spiral.
And will tell us, the new guys, "Today the wind is from the north/south/east/west the best place to land to avoid turbulence is X Y or Z organize your landing patters accordingly."
And it really helps. Not only do you avoid the turbulence but it significantly helps new people such as myself with learning how to set up a coherent landing pattern as well as working on our accuracy.
Thoughts?

Maybe you haven't experienced the worst sorts of strong gusty winds yet.

As billvon mentioned, maybe you have winds that are fairly steady, and markings the ground help.

If your gusts are just peaks and lulls in the winds on the same wind line, the markings can work fine.

But the gusts in other places are not so well mannered as yours seem to be.

There are places where even if the winds stay predominantly from a particular direction for the whole day, the gusts seem to have rules of their own, and come from directions that are significantly off the predominant wind line.

The place I jump has winds like that.

These sorts of gusts, that have some wind shear component to them, make their own kinds of turbulence that are totally unpredictable.

While it is pretty easy to predict where the obstacle-generated turbulence will be, staying away from those areas is no guarantee that you won't be hit by something just awful just as you are getting ready to land.

[shah269 0]

True.
The wind does change about two to three times a day so though it is a turbulant airspace it is "normal" and predictable.
Its not a perfect answer but it's a start.
For a new guy still trying to figure things out and to improve handings and accuracy, it's a good idea.
NOT perfect. But good.

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[NWFlyer 2]

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There are places where even if the winds stay predominantly from a particular direction for the whole day, the gusts seem to have rules of their own, and come from directions that are significantly off the predominant wind line.

The place I jump has winds like that.

These sorts of gusts, that have some wind shear component to them, make their own kinds of turbulence that are totally unpredictable.

While it is pretty easy to predict where the obstacle-generated turbulence will be, staying away from those areas is no guarantee that you won't be hit by something just awful just as you are getting ready to land.

The place Paul jumps is where I sustained the injury described in my earlier post. I was in a wide open area of the landing field, well away from anything that could have caused object turbulence... and still got caught. As Paul says, it's good to know the likely culprits, but that's not the whole picture.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[phoenixlpr 0]

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If that's the case, how do you know your limits, or what to do when you exceed them?

Just because things have gone well for you so far does not mean that they will continue to, nor does it mean that your methodology is correct.

Unlike many things in skydiving, we do have the hard numbers to support the connection between high and/or gusty winds, and accidents involving perfectly good canopies. Even if your personal experience goes against those statistics, putting it out there as the correct course of action is ignorant at best, and illustrates that whatever you've learned jumping thus far, good judgement in giving advice is certainly not included.

Well, we can review this after some years an another 1000 jump....I might not be right, but alive and jumping is enough for me.

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A good rule of thumb is that if ANY of the TIs are sitting out due to weather, it's probably not a good day for jumping. Note that I said 'any', not all, because they're are TIs with good judgement, and TIs with bad judgement, and if you wait for the ones with bad judgement to stand down, you'll be jumping in some squirrely shit.

Some jumpers might need to be even more conservative than that, but very few jumpers should be less conservative. If you take an experienced TI who is at the DZ to jump, and waving money in his face won't get him on the plane, it's not a good day to be on the plane. This is the same guy who will be met at the touchdown point and have his canopy collapsed for him by a catcher, when you can't pay him (literally) to skydive, it should mean something.

Well, that reminds me a jump where only a tandem + camera and me was on board. There were 2 free slot, but none was interested.... True: TIs usually the last to give up jumping because of the weather.

[riggerpaul 1]

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True.
The wind does change about two to three times a day so though it is a turbulant airspace it is "normal" and predictable.
Its not a perfect answer but it's a start.
For a new guy still trying to figure things out and to improve handings and accuracy, it's a good idea.
NOT perfect. But good.

How much change in wind direction do you get? Are you talking about just a relatively few degrees? Or are you talking about significant changes or actual reversals?

If you haven't experienced gusts with a bunch of shear, we're not talking about the same things.

If you get wind changes two to three times a day, how then are the markings on the ground helpful? We all already know to stay as far away from obstacles, and to especially stay away from the areas downwind from the obstacles.

If those ground markings lead anybody to feel even a bit complacent regarding the winds and what they can do to you, well, they could hurt as much as they help.

Even if that never happens, getting used to a particular aid like this is a double-edged sword. There will come a time when you jump somewhere that has all the same dangers as your home dz, but does not mark the ground.

It is best to learn to rely on things that you can count on. Learn to read the swaying grass, flags, smoke, stuff like that.

Use the crutches if/when you must, but try to stop using them as soon as you can.

[shah269 0]

It moves from the north to the north east.
And it's just a good guide. It's not the answer or a 100% solution. A simple, at the moment the wind is comming off that roof and this is a good spot to land to avoide the chop.
There is no real 100% answer to strong / gusty winds other than listen to the older much more experienced guys as I'm told.

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[mjosparky 3]

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Well, we can review this after some years an another 1000 jump....I might not be right, but alive and jumping is enough for me.

And that’s fine for you, if you are willing to subject yourself to the additional risk. But should you put it out there as good advice for the younger jumpers to follow? I don’t think so.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[riggerpaul 1]

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It moves from the north to the north east.
And it's just a good guide. It's not the answer or a 100% solution. A simple, at the moment the wind is comming off that roof and this is a good spot to land to avoide the chop.
There is no real 100% answer to strong / gusty winds other than listen to the older much more experienced guys as I'm told.

It is like training wheels on your bicycle.

Stick with them as long as you like.

But don't expect to do any real riding until you actually learn to ride the bike without them.

Do you still have someone guide you on a radio?

I suspect not, and I'll bet you are indignant that I would even ask.

How is having man-made marks on the ground that much different?

By the way, winds changing from north to northeast is pretty much no change at all.

Ask NWFlyer - there's plenty of places where 3 successive loads, sometimes even groups in a load, can have winds that change 90 degrees or more.

[craigbey 0]

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-The ones who will take the time to listen, yes. The others walk away when one gets started or before one finishes.
-Spotting, gusts, canopy collapses, backwards PLF, the nice feeling of having no broken bones.

Thanks Pops. As the saying goes, "Teach a man to fish..."

The notion of simply staying on the ground when the more experienced jumpers sit down is like an old record. People keep spinning it and it's getting very worn out.

Explaining it as you do is far more important so new jumpers can learn to start making the call for themselves.