RyanofOZ 0 #1 July 15, 2004 I did a search but didn't find a lot so I figured I would ask another somewhat dumb question... Why are reserves 7 cell F-111 and not made of ZP or the option of a 9 cell? Opening issues? reliability? Just curious.Oz Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 56 #2 July 15, 2004 QuoteWhy are reserves 7 cell F-111 and not made of ZP or the option of a 9 cell? Opening issues? reliability? Just curious. Read last question here: http://performancedesigns.com/faq.htm#11 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RyanofOZ 0 #3 July 15, 2004 Well that solved part 1 of the mystery, thanks!Oz Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
atsaubrey 0 #4 July 15, 2004 I have a 9 cell reserve.....but my main is a 7 cell. guess im just backwards"GOT LEAD?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #5 July 15, 2004 actually some reserves (if I am not mistaken a reserve from Precision, not sure) is half ZP half F111. the 7 cell square design is something less bound to strange openings. A reserve is here to save your life as a Ultima Ratio... this is the reason why manufacturers build as safe as possible reserve canopies.scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,400 #6 July 15, 2004 Quoteactually some reserves (if I am not mistaken a reserve from Precision, not sure) is half ZP half F111. That is the Raven Dash-MZ (note the "Z") I have one, and I can confidently say there is no better way to make life miserable for your rigger. (Unfortunately, I am my own rigger, so I did it to myself.) Quotethe 7 cell square design is something less bound to strange openings. A reserve is here to save your life as a Ultima Ratio... this is the reason why manufacturers build as safe as possible reserve canopies. Also, a 9-cell would cost more, and pack bulkier, so what's the point? Anyone jumping their reserve so often they feel the need for more performance, really needs to evaluate WHY they are jumping the reserve so often."There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gerrcoin 0 #7 July 15, 2004 Does anyone know of any evidence to suggest that 7 cell canopies may suffer less from end-cell closure than 9 cell, I'm thinking lower aspect ratio? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #8 July 15, 2004 I doubt that ZP could handle the environmental test, heat, pressure and cold, that is required. It would brick out and never open. At high speed when ZP fails, it fails big time. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,400 #9 July 15, 2004 QuoteDoes anyone know of any evidence to suggest that 7 cell canopies may suffer less from end-cell closure than 9 cell, I'm thinking lower aspect ratio? I had the original ParaFlite Safety-Flyer. It was a 5-cell and you had to pump out the end cells after opening. Who cares about end-cell closure anyway? It's trivial to fix."There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymedic 0 #10 July 16, 2004 The Falcon is TSO'd as a Reserve...and it's 9 cells.... Marc otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masher 1 #11 July 16, 2004 Really? Cool. I've put a few jumps on a Falcon 195. Not as a reserve though...-- Arching is overrated - Marlies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
d604 0 #12 July 16, 2004 The majority of reserves are f-111, as (1) that's the only material out there for a while and momentum is hard to change, (2) f-111 is very close to being zp when it's new and for the most part reserves stay in near new condition, (3) zp is a 'relatively' new fabric for parachutes and it takes awhile for people to accept change (they know f-111 works), etc. The majority of reserves are 7 cells, as they have a lower aspect ratio therefore they are more stable; something that is kind of important in a parachute that you shouldn't be flying all the time. Unless you're hard into CReW. SeanCSPA ratings C1, C2, IA, IB, QE, RA, and EJR Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 18 #13 July 16, 2004 I think Bill Booth posted an answer to the F111/ZP question a while back. If I remember correctly.......in a failure ZP will tear further faster than F111. While ZP is stronger and it takes more to start a rip, once started the failure is more catastrophic. F111 takes less pressure to start a rip but will stop quicker. Hope this helps"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #14 July 16, 2004 QuoteQuoteactually some reserves (if I am not mistaken a reserve from Precision, not sure) is half ZP half F111. That is the Raven Dash-MZ (note the "Z") I have one, and I can confidently say there is no better way to make life miserable for your rigger. (Unfortunately, I am my own rigger, so I did it to myself.) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, I repacked a Raven 109-MZ last week. It merely required more clamps and more patience. It was one of those jobs where you pack it half way and leave it with a sand bag sitting on it for half an hour while you do something else productive. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 3 #15 July 16, 2004 QuoteThe majority of reserves are f-111, as (1) that's the only material out there for a while and momentum is hard to change, (2) f-111 is very close to being zp when it's new and for the most part reserves stay in near new condition, F-111 is a trademark name for material made by Bill Harris. It has not been made for many years. What is used today is a lopo material with a CFM of 0-3 cfm similar to F-111. ZP is stronger than lopo in a pull test but in a high speed deployment it will fail quicker. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #16 July 16, 2004 QuoteIt was one of those jobs where you pack it half way and leave it with a sand bag sitting on it for half an hour while you do something else productive. What if you're not productive? I mean if you go surf DZ.com for about an hour? ---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jerm 0 #17 July 16, 2004 QuoteThe majority of reserves are f-111, as (1) that's the only material out there for a while and momentum is hard to change, (2) f-111 is very close to being zp when it's new and for the most part reserves stay in near new condition, (3) zp is a 'relatively' new fabric for parachutes and it takes awhile for people to accept change (they know f-111 works), etc. momentum schmomentum, unless there is some very compelling advantage to using a ZP reserve, i want no part of trying to pack it as one. It's bad enough pacjing new ZP as a main, and i'm likely to let a hell of a lot more slide in a main packjob than i am a reserve pack. Landing without injury is not necessarily evidence that you didn't fuck up... it just means you got away with it this time Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites d604 0 #18 July 16, 2004 QuoteF-111 is a trademark name for material made by Bill Harris. It has not been made for many years. What is used today is a lopo material with a CFM of 0-3 cfm similar to F-111. Yes I know I was just using the term from the original poster, and everyone calls it f-111, it's like Velcro. Re: [jerm] Reserve Canopy Question Quotemomentum schmomentum, unless there is some very compelling advantage to using a ZP reserve, i want no part of trying to pack it as one. It's bad enough pacjing new ZP as a main, and i'm likely to let a hell of a lot more slide in a main packjob than i am a reserve pack. I really don't care about the material, but I think that the momentum of having primarily f-111 (0-3 cfm) square reserves for over 20 years will take a long time for the industry to go primarily zp reserves for many reasons. I'm thinking it is something like when square reserves came out "why would you want a reserve that is the same as the one that just malfunctioned". Personally, I like f-111 material it’s a little easier to handle not that I have much problem even with new zp, and if its in near new condition safer. Sean Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 3 #19 July 16, 2004 QuoteI really don't care about the material, but I think that the momentum of having primarily f-111 (0-3 cfm) square reserves for over 20 years will take a long time for the industry to go primarily zp reserves for many reasons I don't think it is just momentum. I think an all ZP reserve would have problems with these required tests. 4.3.3.1 Precondition for 16 h at not less than +200 °F (93.3 °C), stabilize to ambient and test drop. 4.3.3.2 Precondition for 16 h at not greater than -40 °F (-40 °C), stabilize to ambient and test drop. 4.3.3.3 Precondition for not less than 400 continuous hours with a 200 lbf (889.6 N) or greater load applied to compress the pack in a manner similar to that most likely to be encountered in actual use. Test drop within 1 h after removing the load. (source AS8015-B) SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. 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mjosparky 3 #15 July 16, 2004 QuoteThe majority of reserves are f-111, as (1) that's the only material out there for a while and momentum is hard to change, (2) f-111 is very close to being zp when it's new and for the most part reserves stay in near new condition, F-111 is a trademark name for material made by Bill Harris. It has not been made for many years. What is used today is a lopo material with a CFM of 0-3 cfm similar to F-111. ZP is stronger than lopo in a pull test but in a high speed deployment it will fail quicker. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #16 July 16, 2004 QuoteIt was one of those jobs where you pack it half way and leave it with a sand bag sitting on it for half an hour while you do something else productive. What if you're not productive? I mean if you go surf DZ.com for about an hour? ---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerm 0 #17 July 16, 2004 QuoteThe majority of reserves are f-111, as (1) that's the only material out there for a while and momentum is hard to change, (2) f-111 is very close to being zp when it's new and for the most part reserves stay in near new condition, (3) zp is a 'relatively' new fabric for parachutes and it takes awhile for people to accept change (they know f-111 works), etc. momentum schmomentum, unless there is some very compelling advantage to using a ZP reserve, i want no part of trying to pack it as one. It's bad enough pacjing new ZP as a main, and i'm likely to let a hell of a lot more slide in a main packjob than i am a reserve pack. Landing without injury is not necessarily evidence that you didn't fuck up... it just means you got away with it this time Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
d604 0 #18 July 16, 2004 QuoteF-111 is a trademark name for material made by Bill Harris. It has not been made for many years. What is used today is a lopo material with a CFM of 0-3 cfm similar to F-111. Yes I know I was just using the term from the original poster, and everyone calls it f-111, it's like Velcro. Re: [jerm] Reserve Canopy Question Quotemomentum schmomentum, unless there is some very compelling advantage to using a ZP reserve, i want no part of trying to pack it as one. It's bad enough pacjing new ZP as a main, and i'm likely to let a hell of a lot more slide in a main packjob than i am a reserve pack. I really don't care about the material, but I think that the momentum of having primarily f-111 (0-3 cfm) square reserves for over 20 years will take a long time for the industry to go primarily zp reserves for many reasons. I'm thinking it is something like when square reserves came out "why would you want a reserve that is the same as the one that just malfunctioned". Personally, I like f-111 material it’s a little easier to handle not that I have much problem even with new zp, and if its in near new condition safer. Sean Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #19 July 16, 2004 QuoteI really don't care about the material, but I think that the momentum of having primarily f-111 (0-3 cfm) square reserves for over 20 years will take a long time for the industry to go primarily zp reserves for many reasons I don't think it is just momentum. I think an all ZP reserve would have problems with these required tests. 4.3.3.1 Precondition for 16 h at not less than +200 °F (93.3 °C), stabilize to ambient and test drop. 4.3.3.2 Precondition for 16 h at not greater than -40 °F (-40 °C), stabilize to ambient and test drop. 4.3.3.3 Precondition for not less than 400 continuous hours with a 200 lbf (889.6 N) or greater load applied to compress the pack in a manner similar to that most likely to be encountered in actual use. Test drop within 1 h after removing the load. (source AS8015-B) SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
