rigging waivers

[miller 0]

heard something a little different this weekend which lead me to ask: are there any riggers out there who require their customers to sign waivers for rigging services?

mike

[krkeenan 0]

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heard something a little different this weekend which lead me to ask: are there any riggers out there who require their customers to sign waivers for rigging services?

mike

What did you hear that led you to ask that question ??

kevin

======================
Seasons don't fear the Reaper,
nor do the Wind, the Sun, or the Rain...

[mr2mk1g 10]

Many US riggers are covered by their DZ waiver. This can't account for all though as you've only signed it if you jump at that DZ and the rigger's only covered if they're attached to the DZ.

In the Commonwealth you can't waive liability for death and personal injury anyway so no one tries.

[masterrig 1]

Wow! That's a new one on me. I hadn't heard of having a customer sign a 'waiver', prior to my doing work for them. Hmmmmm! I've just always gone by the clause in the FAR's that a rigger "is responsible" for his/her work. Seems like that could really 'set-up' a rigger for possible litigation!?

Chuck

[brits17 0]

Strange... can you expand?

_______________________
aerialkinetics.com

[miller 0]

nothing in particular really. glancing through wife's law book - personal liability, forfeiture of rights, personal negligence, scary stuff really.

i've been a rigger for a number of years and it just got me to wondering, food for thought really. i'm not intending to kill anybody, but what happens when some lawyer comes after everyone, including the guy with his seal and name on the card. barring gross negligence, like a molar strap, what's protecting me from losing my house. maybe just nature of the business.

mike

[masterrig 1]

Now, you're really scaring me! I thought about that when I first started rigging 10-yrs. ago. After awhile, I forgot about it and have tried to do my best to do the job right. I considered insurance. Have you priced liability ins.? Sheesh! Still, you get the right lawyer, combined with the right judge and ka-ching! Somebody's hot-footin' it to the bank! We live in a 'Lottery' society. Get the right combination and you're livin' on the beach. Ya' never know. I'll take my chances. I love what I do!

Chuck

Chuck

[iowa 0]

I have a friend that does. It's also a long checklist of items checked, replaced or repaired, and of course the bill.

It's a good thing, I think.

If I can find one of my copies I'll post it.

Keith

''Always do sober what you said you would do drunk. That will teach you to keep your mouth shut.'' - Ernest Hemingway

[slotperfect 7]

This is the first I have heard of this. Not common practice I would imagine.

As far as law suits go, any fatality should be investigated by the local DPRE, who should draw conclusions as to whether or not the equipment was assembled and packed by the manufacturer's instructions.

It would be really helpful to hear from a DPRE in this thread, or someone who has been directly involved in a fatality investigation who can comment on the gear inspection process after a fatality. Please leave the details of the actual incident out (name, location, etc) unless it really adds specific value to this conversation.

Knowing how Riggers have been supported during lawsuits in the past would help those considering a waiver for their customers make their decision.

Arrive Safely

John

[BlindBrick 0]

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heard something a little different this weekend which lead me to ask: are there any riggers out there who require their customers to sign waivers for rigging services?

mike

No, but I jokingly tell all my regular customers that if they have a total mal on a reserve I packed, just personally bring it back for a 100% refund.


-Blind

"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it."

[masterrig 1]

Can I use that line? It beats the heck outa; "If you have a total... aim for your rigger!"

Chuck

[BlindBrick 0]

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Can I use that line? It beats the heck outa; "If you have a total... aim for your rigger!"

Chuck

No problem. Actually that's the usual response. "Don't worry about me bringing it back buddy, cause I'm going to be aiming for you!"

-Blind

"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it."

[Andrewwhyte 1]

I had surgery last week and had to sign a release of liability so why not?

[livnbored 0]

I know of a rigger in Maine that YES does make people sign waivers before their reserve will get packed.

Seriously. Had something to do with some rigger in Cali I think who got sued because he was the only one not included in the DZ waiver when some guy went in... (this is what I was told) ... The guy didn't even pull his reserve, but the family was out for vengeance and sued the only one they could...the rigger.

But, before I became a rigger, I had to sign that waiver...

[councilman24 36]

This is the first I've heard of expecting DPRE's to investigate fatailities. I don't know if it's part of their training and listed duties, but with so few DPRE's in the country and of varying engagement with the sport I'd be surprised if this was the norm.

I have both helped investigate a possible gear related fatality and had a severe malfunction of a reserve I packed cause severe injury.

In the first. The jumper landed of the DZ in some woods. Search my FLIR equipped helicopter, mounted possie and numerous volunteers took about 4-5 hours to find the victim. During that time as the Safety and Training Advisor and a local rigger NOT involved with the jump or rig in question I tried to exstablish a rapor with the State police. I explained the importance of my (or someone else trained) being able to view the equipment in place. I thought we had come to an understand but when word of the body being found came in I was told I couldn't come out with the police investigators. They did bring the gear back fairly intact and allow me to examine it with supervision. Later, I was able to review the jumpers log and photos of the gear taken in place. I had spent some time educating them on removal and photos that would be important during the search, just in case I wasn't allowed out, as happened.

This was not a gear related fatality as best could be detemined. No apparent effort had been made to pull either the BOC or the Reserve handle. The cutaway handle was missing, either stripped by the trees or pulled high and thrown away.

The only other "aviation" investigation was a FAA field inspector who came out later in the week to view the gear. This was a NON rigger.

The victim was from England and no lawsuits or criminal charges ensured.

The other was a low time poor jumper who pulled his Phantom round reserve while tumbling. He tumbled into it, and split the lower lateral band and the canopy to the apex. He survived the injuries. No Police, FAA, DPRE, or even rigger investigation insued. The victim sent the canopy to National before I could see itand they said yep, that's how a round fails. No lawsuit or blame insued.

As the chairman of the PIA rigging committee I have asked the question about waviers several times at PIA meetings and symposia. I've never directly spoke with someone who uses one, but I heard rumors. If there is anyone here who uses one, or knows directly someone who uses one, and are willing to share a copy with me I'd appreciate it. I'd like to collect any that are available as examples. I know these may have cost hundreds or thousands of dollars to use and would maintain them as confidential and not distribute them for use. What I would like to do is summarize use and provisions for education and discussion. Please PM me.

Thanks,

PIA Rigging committee chairman

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[masterrig 1]

Hi, Terry!

We have a master rigger/DPRE in our area who has told me in the past that if there is a; "...a parachute related incident or fatality, I (he) must be called in on the investigation! I'm (he) a master rigger/DPRE!" I haven't seen anything where a master rigger/DPRE 'must' be called in. Any fatalaties in our area have been investigated just by the FAA. He may have called the FAA to find-out what happened, no telling.
As for waivers for riggers, I haven't heard or read of anything in regard to them. I do fill-out a waiver at our DZ, each year. Then too, I've heard they aren't worth the paper they are written on. Not being a 'legal-beagle', I wouldn't know. I fill it out for jumping purposes but, never considered it pertaining to my rigging. Thanks!

Chuck

[riggerrob 562]

Last time I worked there, Adventure Sports Loft in Perris Valley, California asked all customers to sign a waiver. It was one paragraph of small print on the work order form.

And I know far more about that lawsuit than I am willing to discuss in public. The gist of it was: the rigger in question spent close to $10,000 defending himself. When it became clear that he had no significant assests, he was dropped from the law suit.

Welcome to California justice!
Yeehaa!
The richest man is the most guilty!
Roll the dice!
Is it any wonder that the best and brightest riggers do not want to work in California?

[riggermick 6]

Quote

Last time I worked there, Adventure Sports Loft in Perris Valley, California asked all customers to sign a waiver. It was one paragraph of small print on the work order form.

And I know far more about that lawsuit than I am willing to discuss in public. The gist of it was: the rigger in question spent close to $10,000 defending himself. When it became clear that he had no significant assests, he was dropped from the law suit.

Welcome to California justice!
Yeehaa!
The richest man is the most guilty!
Roll the dice!
Is it any wonder that the best and brightest riggers do not want to work in California?

This wouldn't be the lawsuit I was also involved in would it?

Mick.

[masterrig 1]

Hey, Rob!

Thanks for the in-put! That, would probably hold true for most riggers, not enough to worry about 'taking'. I've spoken with my wife, in regard to waivers. She works for our local D.A.'s office and has been in law enforcement for 25yrs. It is her opinion that waivers could be more trouble than they are worth... for me. When I set my business up, I got with an attorney and I 'lease' all my machines, building and vehicle. Basically, all I 'own' are, a few tools, material and threads. I carry no liability insurance. What scares me is, the way our society is today, get the right person, the right lawyer and the right judge and I could be an over-night 'dumpster-diver'! There are just too many folks who refuse to take responsibility for their own actions. Like the rigger you mentioned. If, it got right down to the 'nut-cuttin', we still, stand a chance of losing it all! Ya' just gotta' CYA, the best you can. Thanks again and I appreciate your listening!

Chuck