helge 0 #26 January 11, 2007 Uhm.. One or 10 repacks a year doesn't matter in this case.. More repacks is more chances to screw up.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wwarped 0 #27 January 11, 2007 Quote The 4 month repack cycle doesnt bother me at all...(and no it is not a matter of $$) There have been too many times I have opened a reserve and discovered a FATAL mistake that was made. In that list I have found... 1. A reserve witn NO SLIDER 2. A reserve with 2 step throughs 3. One that was hand tacked to the reserve container 4. One that was not connected to the links properly And on and on and on and on...Many of the repacks left for a few more months would have resulted in a fatality. good catches! but what is the link between quality of packjob and frequency of packjob? how does a consumer know if they are purchasing a quality re-pack (other than shipping their rig to you?). I find it re-assuring that you mentioned things related to rigger error rather than equipment flaws. DON'T PANIC The lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss. sloppy habits -> sloppy jumps -> injury or worse Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
460 0 #28 January 11, 2007 7 days without a base jump... that's a quote from Mark Hewitt, BASE 46... the inventor of the direct bag, co-inventor of the Sorcerer rig, inventor of the line-mod, the pseudo-inventor of the mesh slider...Looks like a death sandwich without the bread - Steve Deadman Morrell, BASE 174 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Slurp56 0 #29 January 11, 2007 Quotedont get me wrong, skydiveing gear is sketchy as hell. ill take my single canopy system out of airplanes a million times (and i do )before i do it comfortably with tso gear. I dont want to say thats an ignorant statement, but I cant think of a better word. (I might accidentally ruffle some feathers with that, if I do, sorry man, nothing personal) I definately wont argue with you over jumping equipment that you're comfortable with. I think being comfortable with your gear is one of the most important aspects to jumping, wether it be off buildings or out of planes. If you're not completely comfortable with or completely trust your equipment, you should hang it up right then and there. There are TSO's on single canopy systems, think pilot rigs. I'm not so certain I'd jump one of those if my dual system was available, depending upon the circustances obviously, but for a pre-meditated jump, my choice is clear. Why would you tend to believe that skydiving rigs are sketchy, in this case, as compared to a base rig? QuoteWithout a TSO, you could build a harness out of ducktape. Well, good luck 2U. On the other side, with all the knowledge we have now, we could forgo the TSO, assuming everybody, including manufacturers, would build their harness/containers in a safe way. In that we, all base jumpers are guinee pigs.... Manufacturers building their TSO harnesses in a safe way is still somewhat up to discretion. Depending on your TSO Certification, we'll selectively choose C23c: "Materials and worksmanship shall be of a quality which documented experience and/or tests have conclusively demonstrated to be suitable for the manufacture of parachutes" granted, most materials in use today are "industry standard" and coincidentally have a mil-spec, but that its not really required. No real point to make, just thought it was interesting food for thought. As far as the FAA is concerned, they dont care if you make your harness out of duct tape, as long as your quality control manual is in order Maybe another example of good idea but poor implementation?________________________________________ I have proof-read this post 500 times, but I guarantee you'll still manage to find a flaw. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BASE1036 0 #30 January 11, 2007 Quote good catches! but what is the link between quality of packjob and frequency of packjob? how does a consumer know if they are purchasing a quality re-pack (other than shipping their rig to you?). I find it re-assuring that you mentioned things related to rigger error rather than equipment flaws. Many of the rigs in which the errors were found had malfuntions which required the use of the reserve within weeks of the mistake being found. If we would have been on a longer repack cycle, the errors would have resulted in a fatality.Daniel Protect Yourself and Your Loved Ones Tasers - Pepper Spray - Stun Guns and more! www.dallassecuritysupply.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
base736 0 #31 January 12, 2007 QuoteMany of the rigs in which the errors were found had malfuntions which required the use of the reserve within weeks of the mistake being found. If we would have been on a longer repack cycle, the errors would have resulted in a fatality. ... And because of the short repack cycle, the riggers who made those first mistakes will have more opportunities to make a similar mistake on another rig, which might otherwise have been functional. The argument still holds. If 1% of reserve packjobs result in some critical error, then it doesn't matter whether they're repacked once a year or once a day -- 1% of skydiving rigs will have such an error packed in. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ghetto 0 #32 January 12, 2007 QuoteQuote good catches! but what is the link between quality of packjob and frequency of packjob? how does a consumer know if they are purchasing a quality re-pack (other than shipping their rig to you?). I find it re-assuring that you mentioned things related to rigger error rather than equipment flaws. Many of the rigs in which the errors were found had malfuntions which required the use of the reserve within weeks of the mistake being found. If we would have been on a longer repack cycle, the errors would have resulted in a fatality. And how many people have died because their perfectly good reserve packjob was unnecessarily replaced at 120 days with a packjob containing a fatal flaw?Web Design Cleveland Skydiving "Hey, these cookies don't taste anything like girl scouts..." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spiderbaby 0 #33 January 12, 2007 BASE736, I've just always wanted to say that I'm BASE #637(ya know, 736 backwards). We don't need to be best friends now or anything. Just sorta cool, or not..........."It takes a big man to cry, it takes an even bigger man to make that big man cry" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MyTwoCents 0 #34 January 12, 2007 QuoteAnd how many people have died because their perfectly good reserve packjob was unnecessarily replaced at 120 days with a packjob containing a fatal flaw? The statistically inclined need to consider if riggers that make mistakes do more or less reserve packjobs on average than riggers that don't make mistakes. I think it may affect the optimal length of the repack cycle. For what it's worth, I prefer a longer cycle. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MyTwoCents 0 #35 January 12, 2007 QuoteWe don't need to be best friends now or anything. Don't have to perhaps, but if you get the opportunity I recommend taking it! BASE 736 is an awesome friend to have. Too bad he eats poutine these days... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BASE1036 0 #36 January 12, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuote good catches! but what is the link between quality of packjob and frequency of packjob? how does a consumer know if they are purchasing a quality re-pack (other than shipping their rig to you?). I find it re-assuring that you mentioned things related to rigger error rather than equipment flaws. Many of the rigs in which the errors were found had malfuntions which required the use of the reserve within weeks of the mistake being found. If we would have been on a longer repack cycle, the errors would have resulted in a fatality. And how many people have died because their perfectly good reserve packjob was unnecessarily replaced at 120 days with a packjob containing a fatal flaw? To recap what I originally said..."What needs to happen before we extend the repack cycle is revamp the process that is required for someone to get their Riggers ticket. Unfortunately common sense and attion to detail is nolonger part of the process. I am for an extended repack cycle...IF THIS HAPPENSDaniel Protect Yourself and Your Loved Ones Tasers - Pepper Spray - Stun Guns and more! www.dallassecuritysupply.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Calvin19 0 #37 January 12, 2007 QuoteQuotedont get me wrong, skydiveing gear is sketchy as hell. ill take my single canopy system out of airplanes a million times (and i do )before i do it comfortably with tso gear. I dont want to say thats an ignorant statement, but I cant think of a better word. (I might accidentally ruffle some feathers with that, if I do, sorry man, nothing personal) I definately wont argue with you over jumping equipment that you're comfortable with. I think being comfortable with your gear is one of the most important aspects to jumping, wether it be off buildings or out of planes. If you're not completely comfortable with or completely trust your equipment, you should hang it up right then and there. There are TSO's on single canopy systems, think pilot rigs. I'm not so certain I'd jump one of those if my dual system was available, depending upon the circustances obviously, but for a pre-meditated jump, my choice is clear. Why would you tend to believe that skydiving rigs are sketchy, in this case, as compared to a base rig? Ignorant? well, i hope not. just different. Skydiveing gear serves its purpose for the masses. you have to agree on that. but the way it is built, Harness, is awesome, one every skyjump rig i have seen. but, very thin lines are used to take opening shock, and its not terribly rare they break. two parachutes complicte the hell out of a system. and i am comfortable with jumping my warlock and dagger all the time because i dont see the point of doing crazy freefly shit where i could need a cypress, or big ways, etc. i like tracking dives with good freinds. and wingsuiting. a reserve is packed soooo tight. that shit does not want to come out. the way i jump, and the way i think a lot of other people do, is that im doing things where a second parachute wouldnt do much, and the simple option to be able to makes the idea of useing skyjump gear unsafe. over the past year.5 i have been esentialy turning my mirage g3 into a base rig. packing the dagger into it free, lengthened cutaway cables, and 36" vented PC. i would not hesitate to take it off my local 600meter A, but its heavy. but, also TSOd. skydiveing is safe. retardedly safe. in my 4 years of jumping, i have seen more space cadet morons get to the point of being comfortable with sky jumps. so, when super simple consumers get their hands on the main canopy packing style of the modern rigs, there is no problem with that. but when your flying you wingsuit down to 1500' on the upwind side of the DZ, just behind the tree where the dzo sits, a microlined saber2 135 is not what you want. PS, skydive rigs are sketchy Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChuckDarwin 0 #38 January 12, 2007 Quotetwo parachutes complicte the hell out of a system. Simple systems for simple minds, eh? Do you REALLY believe that? Or do you just not understand your skydiving rig too well? Quotea reserve is packed soooo tight. that shit does not want to come out. Yet SOMEHOW they do. CONSISTENTLY. Imagine that. Quotethe way i jump, and the way i think a lot of other people do, is that im doing things where a second parachute wouldnt do much, and the simple option to be able to makes the idea of useing skyjump gear unsafe. hArDcORe 4 lYFe, yO! Just the fact that you used the word "skyjump" docks your IQ score down a magnitude in my book. Quote in my 4 years of jumping, i have seen more space cadet morons get to the point of being comfortable with sky jumps. The same can be said for BASE jumpers.... Quoteso, when super simple consumers get their hands on the main canopy packing style of the modern rigs, there is no problem with that. WTF are you trying to say? Because frankly, English>you PS: how about entering your REAL D number, IF you have one Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mac 1 #39 January 13, 2007 QuoteSimple systems for simple minds, eh? Do you REALLY believe that? Or do you just not understand your skydiving rig too well? BASE rigs (single canopy rigs) are alot safer than dual parachute rigs (skydiving rigs).... And I would love to hear your arguements against that... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MyTwoCents 0 #40 January 13, 2007 QuoteBASE rigs (single canopy rigs) are a lot safer than dual parachute rigs (skydiving rigs).... And I would love to hear your arguments against that... Different contexts, different use-cases. If I'm gonna pull high, like on a skydive, than using a dual parachute rig would be safer than a single rig, all other parameters being the same (i.e. no AAD, no RSL, same large canopy, etcetera. Just a larger container with a second chance behind a springloaded pilotchute). Denying this, or trying to argue the converse by chalking it up to increased complexity (which isn't that much to begin with, and has been largely sorted out over the past thirty years) or rigger error is foolish. Trying to argue that single parachute systems never fail to begin with would be equally foolish. An infinitesimal chance is still more dangerous than absolute safety. Now add in sloppy packing, head-down flying, sit flying, multi-ways with collision potential, and a huge reduction in canopy size for swoop purposes, and all of a sudden you have a context in which the dual rig greatly increases the chance of survival. For the record, I'll jump my BASE rig out of a plane any day and feel safe enough. But even then I'm still jumping my BASE canopy, jumping solo, not going headdown, packing carefully, and wearing a hookknife. Change any of these parameters, and I'll bring my reserve. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
d_goldsmith 1 #41 January 13, 2007 QuoteQuotea reserve is packed soooo tight. that shit does not want to come out. Yet SOMEHOW they do. CONSISTENTLY. Imagine that. If you have enough altitude they do, but his point still stands that they are in there tight and they don't want to come out. P.S. This is a BASE jumping forum.I've got this really hardcore group of gaurdian angels that need a free paid vacation. ~Dan Osman Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #42 January 13, 2007 QuoteP.S. This is a BASE jumping forum. On a skydiving web site. Be nice. The guy who owns this house isn't a BASE jumper, so it's 's pretty rude to go around dissing people for that.-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #43 January 13, 2007 Please review the forum rules regarding personal attacks. Specifically: 1) No personal attacks. Consider this your warning.-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Slurp56 0 #44 January 13, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuotedont get me wrong, skydiveing gear is sketchy as hell. ill take my single canopy system out of airplanes a million times (and i do )before i do it comfortably with tso gear. I dont want to say thats an ignorant statement, but I cant think of a better word. (I might accidentally ruffle some feathers with that, if I do, sorry man, nothing personal) I definately wont argue with you over jumping equipment that you're comfortable with. I think being comfortable with your gear is one of the most important aspects to jumping, wether it be off buildings or out of planes. If you're not completely comfortable with or completely trust your equipment, you should hang it up right then and there. There are TSO's on single canopy systems, think pilot rigs. I'm not so certain I'd jump one of those if my dual system was available, depending upon the circustances obviously, but for a pre-meditated jump, my choice is clear. Why would you tend to believe that skydiving rigs are sketchy, in this case, as compared to a base rig? Ignorant? well, i hope not. just different. Skydiveing gear serves its purpose for the masses. you have to agree on that. but the way it is built, Harness, is awesome, one every skyjump rig i have seen. but, very thin lines are used to take opening shock, and its not terribly rare they break. two parachutes complicte the hell out of a system. and i am comfortable with jumping my warlock and dagger all the time because i dont see the point of doing crazy freefly shit where i could need a cypress, or big ways, etc. i like tracking dives with good freinds. and wingsuiting. a reserve is packed soooo tight. that shit does not want to come out. the way i jump, and the way i think a lot of other people do, is that im doing things where a second parachute wouldnt do much, and the simple option to be able to makes the idea of useing skyjump gear unsafe. over the past year.5 i have been esentialy turning my mirage g3 into a base rig. packing the dagger into it free, lengthened cutaway cables, and 36" vented PC. i would not hesitate to take it off my local 600meter A, but its heavy. but, also TSOd. skydiveing is safe. retardedly safe. in my 4 years of jumping, i have seen more space cadet morons get to the point of being comfortable with sky jumps. so, when super simple consumers get their hands on the main canopy packing style of the modern rigs, there is no problem with that. but when your flying you wingsuit down to 1500' on the upwind side of the DZ, just behind the tree where the dzo sits, a microlined saber2 135 is not what you want. PS, skydive rigs are sketchy I respect your opinion, everybody is entitled to one, but I don't have to agree with it, and here is why. Skydiving gear serves it's purpose for the masses. Well to some extent, but people still die using it. It's not like it's fool proof, it has just been getting more reliable. The harness's are good and I wouldn't hesitate to say that it can be attributed partially to the TSO and requirements. It's no secret that modern BASE gear uses the same technology and hardware as a proven design. We all know it works, manufacturers have been required to drop test it with loads that it will not likely see. However, as far as "very thin lines used to take opening shock" that is a jumper choice. Go to performance design's website and pull up an order form for a Sabre2. Arguably one of the most popular skydiving canopies and it has an option for Dacron lines, same with the Spectre. Keep in mind, you aren't loading your BASE canopy the same as most skydivers are loading their skydiving canopy (I hope). Two parachutes complicating the hell out of the system? I'm not seeing it and you can't explain it. Is it more complicated than a single parachute system, like a BASE rig? Yes. But that's obvious. A cypress isn't specifically designed for crazy freefly shit or RW. If it was, they wouldn't have a presence on student or tandem gear. Besides, even if you own one, you should never count on it working. In the event of a plane strike on exit or getting kicked in the face on a tracking dive and I go unconscious, I have a better chance of surviving with one, rather than without one. Lets not confuse skydiving with BASE jumping, the same rules do not apply. Tracking dives and wingsuit dives are some of my favorite as well, but I always turn my cypress on. As a side note, a cypress isnt even a gear requirement. You can jump just as reliably without one, same thing for the RSL. About the reserve being packed tight and not wanting to come out? I'm not seeing it and you can't explain it. It's not supposed to just "fall out". We dont want every piece of fabric over head now, the idea behind them being so tight is to meter the deployment, which is not *exactly* the same in BASE. This is one of the reasons that the reserve parachute is placed inside of a freebag. Granted, there are sometimes that we want the reserve overhead and NOW, it is far more likely to cut away your main at 1,000 ft or more and still have working time for the reserve to deply. The whole system is a compromise. Open too slow and you're dead, open to fast and you're dead. If the way that you jump is BASE jumping, then yes, you are probably correct. Granted this is the BASE section of the message forum, but this whole conversation started by the whole "F*CK the TSO stuff, the man is holding us down" which applies to skydiving. In skydiving where we typically jump from 3,000 ft or more, a 2nd parachute can do alot to save your life. Why would you turn your skydiving rig into a BASE rig? Isn't that the whole debate here? How skydiving rigs are over complicated? There is no need for a 2nd parachute? Just because you dont use a Dbag and added a larger PC doesnt make it a BASE rig. It probably is heavy and alot of that weight can be attributed to the fact that its a mirage and that it has a 2nd parachute. The TSO doesnt make it heavy. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that if I snuck a TSO tag and packing data card into your base rig, you wouldnt be able to tell that difference. I dont understand what you are trying to say by the last paracgraph there. Skydiving has been becoming reliable, I wouldn't call it safe. Chess is safe, dropzone.com is safe, but when we cant call sex safe anymore, we sure as hell cant call jumping out of an airplane safe... Is it safer than say BASE jumping? I'd tend to agree. Keep in mind that when you fly your wingsuit down to 1500' on the upwind side of the DZ, just behind the tree where the DZO sits with a microlined Sabre2 135, it was YOUR CHOICE to get into the plane with that configuration... I'd hope you know your setup before needing it, much like packing slider up or slider down or with a larger or smaller pilot chute in BASE. Plan the jump, know the jump, jump the jump. I'm not talking about using a skydiving rig for BASE jumping, and I'm not talking about using a BASE rig for skydiving. The whole point of the differences in these rigs is due to two totally different situations. But to say that a BASE rig is more suitable for skydiving than a skydiving rig is just as fallacious as saying that a skydiving rig is better suited for BASE than a BASE rig.________________________________________ I have proof-read this post 500 times, but I guarantee you'll still manage to find a flaw. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #45 January 13, 2007 A side effect to the TSO process that not a lot of people think about is the record keeping aspect of it. Every manufactor has to keep accurate records showing the path of the materials through the process of building the rig. For example when Sunpath had an issue with the backing of a certian color of parapack becoming sticky since it was not seen as a huge issue since they knew the exact serial numbers of rigs that used that exact batch worth of fabric. TSO'd rig manufactors have to keep extremely detailed records showing what batches of material were used in what rigs so that they can ensure if bad materials make it though the process they are able to be tracked. Capewell was able to isolate the exact manufactoring time peroid that the bad pins were manufactors and what people purchased them through their paperwork. Part of the cost in the TSO beyond the testing phase goes to the on going paperwork needed.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
980 0 #46 January 13, 2007 Quote If you have enough altitude they do, but his point still stands that they are in there tight and they don't want to come out. actually I have to disagree with Matt's views on skydiving gear his point does not stand and all you have to do to check it out for yourself is deploy most skydiving reserves at terminal velocity and you will be surprised at how much that canopy wanted to come out... QuoteP.S. This is a BASE jumping forum. actually this is not a BASE jumping forum, this is the DORKZONE these are BASE jumping forums: BLiNC UK BASE Board FBA Forum IBA Forum ABA and then, of course, there is always the ubiquitous websearch: search results for 'BASE jumping forum' maybe you can now do some clicking and try and learn the difference although personally I would prefer people with your posting style and history to stay on the DORKZONE rather than mess with the signal-to-noise ratio on real BASE forums cya Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
321Cya 0 #47 January 13, 2007 As far as I'm concerned this whole discussion is about comparing apples with pears. e.g. You wouldn't go play hockey with a golf club and opposite... BASE and skydive gear both serve their purpose and they do so pretty well. They both have come a long way. As for the original post: I admire your work, good stuff! J. www.vandrunen.ch Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
d_goldsmith 1 #48 January 13, 2007 Hey Slurp, when you talked about the complexity you just said that it was obviously more complex than an single parachute system and then went on to cypress, so here are some additional complexity things you might not have considerred. collapsible pilot chute, retractible pilot chute, and collapsable and splitable sliders. Base gear is designed so be as non-complex as possible. The most complex thing on my base rig is the three rings, and it's only there because I trust that it won't fail (I check it before every jump) and it is a lot faster than hook knifing your risers in an emergency. I hope that at some point in the future BASE gear, is reffered to as low altitude gear, and is acceptable at all dropzones to people with the proper education.I've got this really hardcore group of gaurdian angels that need a free paid vacation. ~Dan Osman Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nicrussell 0 #49 January 13, 2007 QuoteI hope that at some point in the future BASE gear, is reffered to as low altitude gear, and is acceptable at all dropzones to people with the proper education. hell ya. it scares me but hell ya. you know i have 4.5 rigs for different reasons. if this 'LA GEAR' idea could work i could sell the shit i dont want and by another blackjack. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BASE1036 0 #50 January 13, 2007 All this talk of evil skydiving gear has almost got me scared to show pictures of the Skydiving rig II am making....Jeesh! Some of you guys crack me up. Do some research and remember where your roots are... What Would Carl DO?Daniel Protect Yourself and Your Loved Ones Tasers - Pepper Spray - Stun Guns and more! www.dallassecuritysupply.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
