Busts in general???

[tfelber 0]

I was reading a thread where the primary emphasis seemed to be on the paranoia of getting BUSTED. My question is what are people true concerns with getting busted for trespassing or even arial delivery?

Tresspassing seems to me to be a rather minor offense, listed as a Class B Misdemeanor for the most part, punishable by UP TO 180 days in county jail and/or a fine up to $2,000. While this might seem like a lot it is comparable to a DUI/DWI. Most DUI/DWI 1st, and even 2nd, convictions result in penalties in the $500 range and an overnight or weekend stay in jail.

To me that just doesn't seem to be that strong of a deterrent. I mean look how many repeat DUI offenders there are out there and how many have never been caught.

Am I missing something here? I realize local governments differ, but is there any justification or history which puts BASE jumping into a aggravated or criminal category?

Arial delivery in NP's is clearly another story. The law is being used to inflict punitive damages on the BASE community. Forfeiture of my gear is probably my primary concern. And due to history the penalties are generally harsher than the norm, but if you could get off a 3000' wall, what would it be worth?

People travel to Norway and jump and I'm sure these trips are not considered cheap. So what's the big deal?

Before anyone goes off on what I know about getting arrested and spending time in jail, I must tell you I have plenty of experience! So what are your concerns?

[JaapSuter 0]

Have you ever tried getting a job with jail-time on your record?

Have you ever tried applying for immigrant status or citizenship with jail-time on your record?

Have you ever tried entering the United States as a non-US-citizen with jail-time on your record?

Have you considered that a 2nd and definitely a 3rd bust will result in more severe punishment, meaning you might as well be careful with the first bust?

Have you ever dropped the soap in the showers while you were in jail?

[TomAiello 25]

I think criminal record is an issue to many people, especially if it turns into a felony conviction.

There are some specific places that have specific anti-BASE ordinances as well, and one of them (which is a pretty historic landmark) has a fine of $10,000 written into the ordinance.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[cornishe 0]

Once you become a second or third time offender, you will get a penalty closer to max than to a slap on the wrist.

Once you get busted, you've just upped your game and now take a bigger risk on each illegal jump.


.

Abbie Mashaal
Skydive Idaho
Snake River Skydiving
TandemBASE

[tfelber 0]

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Have you ever tried getting a job with jail-time on your record?

Have you ever tried applying for immigrant status or citizenship with jail-time on your record?

Have you ever tried entering the United States as a non-US-citizen with jail-time on your record?

Have you considered that a 2nd and definitely a 3rd bust will result in more severe punishment, meaning you might as well be careful with the first bust?

Have you ever dropped the soap in the showers while you were in jail?

Q1. Yes, I have even had a Secret Level security clearance. And those were felony charges, six of them to be exact and I served two years in the state penal institution. I thought I already clarified I had plenty of experience in this area!

Q2. I already am a US citizen, but point taken.

Q3. Note Q1 response, I travel internationally quite often. However, I realize that is not the same as the US immigration statutes.

Q4. Definitely, see Q1 response.

Q5. Yes and I left it there!

[nicknitro71 0]

Funny shit Tony! You were told she was only 14

Memento Audere Semper

903

[tfelber 0]

And that was exactly the way it happened, promise!

[Jasmin 0]

I'm with you on this one Jaap.

The charges in Australia are also slightly different to the states. eg Public endangerment, tresspass, endangering oneself in a national park without a permit.

If you have/want a job that has a high degree of responsibility, public endangerment convictions do not go down well....

xj

"I wouldn't recommend picking a fight with the earth...but then I wouldn't recommend picking a fight with a car either, and that's having tried both."

[TomAiello 25]

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...Public endangerment, tresspass, endangering oneself...

We've had at least one court case in which the whole public endangerment thing was beaten, so the jumper only had to deal with the trespass type stuff.

The "you might hurt someone" really doesn't hold water in a logical sense, and I bet that anyone would have a pretty good time against it in court. You have more chance of getting hit by a meteor than a BASE jumper, simply because meteors don't try to avoid you.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[460 0]

In my most Martin Luther King, Jr. voice:

I have a dream! I have a dream...

I see the day when the kids of base jumpers and park rangers can play together in the same playground. I see the day when base jumpers will talk to their base jumping elders, but never understand the silliness of the discrimination of the park rangers.

I have a dream!

Looks like a death sandwich without the bread - Steve Deadman Morrell, BASE 174

[Jasmin 0]

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We've had at least one court case in which the whole public endangerment thing was beaten, so the jumper only had to deal with the trespass type stuff.

The "you might hurt someone" really doesn't hold water in a logical sense, and I bet that anyone would have a pretty good time against it in court.

It sounds like you guys got lucky.

Edited to add: The judge was nice and dismissed other charges, but not even a first place in accuracy at the worlds was enough to get p.e. dismissed for one particular jumper here.

xj

"I wouldn't recommend picking a fight with the earth...but then I wouldn't recommend picking a fight with a car either, and that's having tried both."

[grundleson 0]

dude, DUI's are way more expensive than 500$. i'd much rather have a trespassing ticket rather than a DUI. trespassing tickets (at least mine) have been overlooked, but DUI's are much more severe.

anyway...

Dont die!

[chuckbrown 0]

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I think criminal record is an issue to many people, especially if it turns into a felony conviction.

Depending on your occupation, even a misdemeanor can have serious consequences.

[SBCmac 0]

It's not the fines or the jail time that I care about... It's the gear confiscation that bothers me… Because I didn’t have a second rig when I got busted, I was out of the game for 3 months hoping and waiting to get my gear returned. If I was busted in the states they would have definitely kept my gear.

So all in all, for me it has nothing to do with being paranoid about being busted and fined… My paranoia is how long it will take a gear manufacturer to make new gear.

Thankfully, I finally solved that problem by buying a second rig. But I have to be honest, my rigs are like kids to me… If one of my kids died, I wouldn’t just turn to my wife and say, “Bend over babe, we’ve got to make replacement for little Johnny…”

BATMAN - (A.K.A. SBCmac ...)

[LouYoung 0]

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If I was busted in the states they would have definitely kept my gear.

It depends on who gets you in the U.S. I got my gear back in two days.

Now, like someone else said, once you get one conviction on your record, it's really difficult to keep the others from sticking and the penalties from being worse.

The best way to not get a speeding ticket? Don't get the first one. If your record is clean, you're more likely to get a warning or get the ticket dismissed/dropped.

With that said, if I get nabbed for another trespass anytime in the near future, it's gonna hurt.

[NickDG 23]

It used to be the garden variety building pop, the kind where you land just as a police car turns the corner were almost always a slap on the wrist. A District Attorney or Judge had no previous knowledge of BASE jumping and felt no pressure to make you an example. In their mind how many morons like you could there be?

Those days are gone . . . Now a first offense to you is usually not a first offense to the judge. He's got to do something about you guys. That's how the penalties get progressively worse.

There was a time when we could have kept BASE jumping a secret, but we blew that . . .

NickD BASE 194

[leroydb 0]

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There was a time when we could have kept BASE jumping a secret, but we blew that . . .

how would you keep it secret? What was the turning point?

Leroy


..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio...

[skypuppy 1]

I love busts.... Preferably a D-cup....

Skypuppy

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[nicrussell 0]

I dont think that keeping BASE 'secret' would have been a wise idea, even if possible. If a few cali jumpers didn't tell and share their amazing jumps of yester years, it wouldn't have spread. It wouldnt have progressed past a certain point. The technology side of things would still be twenty years or so behind. And maybe this is being selfish, but I would NOT be part of it, and I happen to enjoy it.

Nic

[NickDG 23]

Of course we couldn't have kept BASE secret even if we tried. We did however, at one time, do a pretty good job of keeping it in-house.

We didn't BASE jump at the drop zone.
- We didn't talk about it, we didn't wear BASE t-shirts, and we didn't screen BASE vids in the bar.

Who do I see about BASE?
- That was the question of the day as those interested in the sport couldn't pick out the BASE jumpers from the regular skydivers. The answer was if they couldn't figure out how to find the local BASE jumpers, they weren't resourceful enough to BASE jump in the first place.

We took new people into the ranks.
- We avoided the problem, for the most part, of training the knobs by taking them in if they managed to find us and they weren't total dorks. I even remember crews being criticized for being too exclusive. We, like early skydivers before money became the thing, felt that someone helped us, and we had the obligation to help others.

Certainly many things are better now, but because I experienced that time in the sport I cannot help but feel nostalgic for those days. It was all very cloak and dagger. This was a time a stranger would stand in the loading area at the DZ quietly whispering, pleading really, "Psst . . . BASE? Anyone here BASE?"

If we did have a jump planned for that night we passed it on when one jumpmaster with a student coming in passed another jumpmaster with a student going out with the secret sign. Usually this was passing your index finger along the side of your nose. The classic signal that the con was on!

The end of the secret finally came, not with the BASE magazines which were in-house, or the occasional mainstream magazine article. (BTW, the first one appeared in "Outside" magazine about Yosemite and the death of Jimmy Tyler, BASE 13 in 1983 or 84. It was called, "The BASE Case").

No, the end of the "secret" came with the internet. And I can name the very person who caused it, the person who first made it possible for BASE jumpers from around the world to discuss the sport in a public forum. It was hosted by the GEnie network in 1985, and the scoundrel that started it, the person responsible for blowing the big secret, was me.

So maybe the new truth of BASE these days is the sad fact we are so big and so fractured in our thinking, no one gets the jokes anymore. Everything has to be over-explained . . .

NickD BASE 194

[JaapSuter 0]

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So maybe the new truth of BASE these days is the sad fact we are so big and so fractured in our thinking, no one gets the jokes anymore. Everything has to be over-explained . . .

That only goes for the internet boards Nick. Stand next to any BASE jumper at the edge, look down and then look your brother in the eyes; it's then that all need for explanations evaporates.

And that will never change.

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Of course we couldn't have kept BASE secret even if we tried.

This poses an interesting question that I have been struggling with for a while. On the one hand, there are valid reasons to keep BASE underground, mostly keep unprepapred people from hurting themselves and to protect our sites. On the other hand, if we think BASE is such a beautiful thing and we are fighting so hard for legitimate and legal jumps in the parks, given the respect we deserve, then we shouldn't be so secretive about it.

Every time I make a jump, I want to scream to the world what a beautiful thing that was. I can barely contain myself and just end up spouting my written diarrea onto these forums. If BASE was respected by the public and the parks would be completely legal, would our secrecy change, and would the naming policy for those sites change? Obviously we would still keep quiet on our urban adventures, but I am sometimes wondering if our obsessiveness with the underground aspects of BASE is hurting the image we emit to the outside world.

In the scrambling and climbing community, many people write trip-reports. I always find these a joy to read, knowing that there are other people passionate about the same things, and learning that there are other places where people enjoy the same things. Why wouldn't base jumpers share these kind of stories, with or without site naming?

If we think BASE is a legitimate sport, that can be practiced safely and can be dealt with the same way as climbing and other outdoor activities, then why are we trying so hard to old on to the past and keep things dark, dodgy and underground?

I have my own thoughts and reasons on why we do this, but I'm curious what others think.

[tfelber 0]

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...I'm curious what others think.

That's quite thought provoking... I don't necessarily keep what I'm doing a secret from my friends or acquaintences, but I have not done an illegal jump yet either. I do know of a few illegal jumps that have happened and the people on these loads were very secretive about them before thay happened and even afterwards, with good reason. Even people I know pretty well will say "Last night, we did this thing..." and that's about as clear as it gets.

I have read stories, here and elsewhere, of illegal jumps that went well and some that went bad. So not everyone feels the need to be a secretive as others. For myself, it almost feels like bragging to talk about a jump I made. I get this exhilerated feeling after a jump and want to tell everyone about it, but I have a sensation bordering on guilt when I think about talking about something that I think is such an accomplishment to someone who basically considers it insane. Or others that might say "So what..."

The time I walked down from a certain "E" I had no problems talking about. I think I felt embarassed about walking down so I didn't consider the thoughts of others as much. As for my close friends, I have no problems talking to them about antics; including jumping, but posting it on a public forum is another story.

However, I really do enjoy hearing and reading about different jumps, how they went, what worked, and what didn't. A couple of months before my FJC I ran accros someone's BASE diary on line and it was very interesting to read.

So in summary I don't have a desire to keep BASE underground. I don't feel the need to limit people's access to the sport or the "legal" objects. I understand BASE is inherently more dangerous than most other things, but I don't believe that I or anyone else needs to police the sport. If people participate in something without the ability to deal with the consequences then that's their problem. I think having BASE less underground generates more information so that people who have the desire to enter the sport informed have a better chance of making the decision that is right for them.

[TomAiello 25]

In all honesty, I don't think that anyone ought to be encouraged to BASE jump. If you need it, you'll find it. If you can find that level of personal satisfaction in something else that is less likely to take your life, your fitness, and your friends, then you ought to be doing that other thing.

Going out and trying to share the "gospel of BASE" with the world seems a little silly.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[JaapSuter 0]

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Going out and trying to share the "gospel of BASE" with the world seems a little silly.

I agree. Like you say in your "Getting Into BASE Article":

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I would never advise someone to get into it (and I have found it to be the most rewarding experience of my life).

Which, while true, strengthes the idea that BASE is a highly dangerous sport (which is also true). I can't help but shake the feeling that it is precisely this that is hurting our quest for legal BASE. So really we aren't fighting the NPS or any instititution. We are fighting for the right to hurt ourselves if we so please.

[leroydb 0]

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We are fighting for the right to hurt ourselves if we so please.

Spoken very true (not that I am trying to hurt myself... far from that...) I mean we are not commiting suicide, I just want to live life to the fullest.

Leroy


..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio...