Wall Strike in Moab!

[clint 1]

Hey Y'all,

This jumper does not skydive now and if he did skydive this incident probably wouldn't have happened. Has 90 skydives and hasn't made a skydive in 4-5 years. I was not there but my wife was.

A very current BASE jumper exited off of Wallstreet(rock climbers named it so it should be legal to say here, right Tom) Good body position, opened up with a 120 to the right.

Released the left toggle to turn away from the wall. That didn't work for obvious reasons. So he reached over with his right hand and pulled the left toggle even further.

He hit the wall at that point. Rolled down the wall and landed in a tree. IF the tree wasn't there, lots of broken bones and other wonderful things that we fear!



So again, what do you think about BASE jumpers not skydiving anymore?



On a side note, I heard that this is happening now in Norway, is this true?
If you want to go to Norway, you MUST have 250 skydives or 250 BASE jumps.

Our friend just went to Norway and he just took a BASE 1st jump course and made 80 BASE jumps in 1 month. They told him that you can't jump here unless you have 250....something???

[NickDG 23]

>>So again, what do you think about BASE jumpers not skydiving anymore?<<

Nothing, so long as you know RISERS . . .

NickD BASE 194

[clint 1]

Very True!

[JaapSuter 0]

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A very current BASE jumper

How many jumps in the past six months? How many jumps total?

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Released the left toggle to turn away from the wall. That didn't work for obvious reasons. So he reached over with his right hand and pulled the left toggle even further.

Is there an indication why he didn't go for risers? Was it a conscious decision, inexperience, a poor decision made during panic?

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what do you think about BASE jumpers not skydiving anymore?

Are you referring to base jumpers starting with very little to no skydives, or are you referring to base jumpers that stop skydiving once they are base jumping?

I'm glad to hear the jumper is doing okay. Do you have any thoughts on how the public perceives legal jumping at Moab these days? There was another incident quite recently, and it only takes a small amount of incidents to jeopardize the fragile nature of base' legal status in Moab.

[NickDG 23]

>>it only takes a small amount of incidents to jeopardize the fragile nature of base' legal status in Moab.<<

Those cliffs have been there for a million years and will be there for a million more. The only thing that will ever stop us jumping them is us . . .

NickD BASE 194

[clint 1]

Quote"How many jumps in the past six months? How many jumps total?"

More than you probably, haha. 40-60 all in Moab, not sure or the exact # since I haven't been jumping myself. He has over 120 Total BASE jumps.

Quote "Is there an indication why he didn't go for risers? Was it a conscious decision, inexperience, a poor decision made during panic?"

All the above. He still thinks that if he would have just grabbed the other toggle, he would missed the wall. I have been telling him that you better get out to the dz and jump your BASE canopy in our rental rig. He says hell no. Says it dangerous. It really pisses me off too. I dont' want to watch another friend die in front of me.

BASE jumpers that stop skydiving after they have BASE experience.

There is this one guy that came out last month. Jumped 170' opened perfect, did nothing afterward, hit the ground and separated his shoulder. The jump gives you 5-6 seconds of canopy time with a PCA.

He did his 100 skydives and then stopped.

The town doesnt even know about this, so no perception there.

[JaapSuter 0]

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He did his 100 skydives and then stopped.

People should realize that FJC requirements are just that: FJC requirements. Having enough skydives to do an FJC is not enough skydives to become a well-rounded base jumper.

But I'm doing the pot-kettle thing here, so I'll shut up now...

[JaapSuter 0]

Thanks for posting the information Clint, I appreciate it.

One last question; this jumper is not yet convinced that risers might have been a better option here? Do you know if the hundred skydives he did had a strong base focus, e.g. practicing rear riser turns, low approaches, etc.?

Is skydive-MOAB still considering to launch a base-focused skydiving course?

[Maxim 0]

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Released the left toggle to turn away from the wall. That didn't work for obvious reasons. So he reached over with his right hand and pulled the left toggle even further.

By this are you saying he released only the left toggle? so by doing so would have turned the canopy into the wall before it started turning the right way. cause the right was still stowed in half breaks?

saying that i dont know if skydiving would have helped the situation im normally always on rears untill the airspace is clear then unstow my breaks.

Life is Great. Even Greater what we do with it.

[Peej 0]

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saying that i dont know if skydiving would have helped the situation im normally always on rears untill the airspace is clear then unstow my breaks.

That's exactly why it would have helped. If you and i are on a jump and we open with our canopies flying directly towards each other, what do you do? Rear riser into clean air. Same scenario here but replace a jumper with an object. Climb on the rears and find clean air.

Advertisio Rodriguez / Sky

[TVPB 0]

Hi Clint

"He thinks". Lets analyse that for a second. He thinks in foresight is a wonderful think - oops, thing. I recommend this to all and sundry. He thinks in hindsight is a bit late although better late than never. If he still thinks AFTER he has messed up that his strategy was correct, then he must learn to open his mind a little more.

Lets go with the theory that "if you do tomorrow what you did today, the result will still be the same". He jumps off tomorrow with all conditions the same, he gives the same input, he reaches over with his other hand to pull the toggle down further (this all takes time to do which could have been spend flying away from the wall), will the outcome be different?

HHHHMmmmm. ??????

"The first step in overcoming a problem is to recognise that a problem exists".

Next we move on to the Simpsons. Ever seen the episode where Lisa does an experiement to test the intelligence and learning abilities of Bart and a Rat. The Rat learns after a few electric shocks not to touch the object anymore. Bart doesn't. Ouch. Ouch. Ouch. Ouch. Ouch. Ouch. Ouch. Ouch. Ouch. Ouch. Ouch. Ouch.

Are we there yet?

Lack of currency is an OBVIOUS and PROVEN component in MANY aviation accidents. If you do not believe this is the case or you believe that you are immune to the affects of a lack of currency, then I sincerely hope you recover well from your accident.

Lets not kid ourselves here people. Uncurrent people, FU$CK UP.

You do NOT learn enough in 50 skydives and 20 BASE jumps to fully know what you are doing. Unless you are a very special person. By definition, very special is limited to very few people (we are considering skill only, not how others feel about us ).

1 Set up gear correctly.
2 If inexperienced, use RISERS.
3 Learn to use them in a safe environment, not on your first 180 opening off a cliff.
4 Have a plan and stick to it.

Stay Safe
Have Fun
Good Luck

Tom

Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck

The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

[lifewithoutanet 0]

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(we are considering skill only, not how others feel about us ).

Tom, I thought this was a great point and deserved repeating. It's the perfect counter-argument to "So-and-so said I'd be 'just fine'." Oh, really? If that's the case, why don't we see So-and-so splitting more hospital time.

Not sure how or if it factors in with this jumper, but I'm glad to hear he's okay.

-C.

[nicknitro71 0]

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2 If inexperienced, use RISERS.

I don't agree. I believe in Risers over toggles any time, flame away. Slim could have saved few bones if he went for risers and he was very, very experienced when he had his 180.

People don't realize that Moab is not a easy site. Inexperienced jumpers flick it all the time. Some get away, some get away with an inflated ego, some get away with some titanium...

Just my 0.02.

Memento Audere Semper

903

[crwper 7]

To me this sounds less like a problem with currency, and more like a problem with stubbornness or pride. It sounds like this jumper still thinks his method is correct, in spite of his own experience and advice from more experienced jumpers. This is a problem which more jumps, skydiving or BASE, will not correct.

Michael

[TomAiello 25]

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...cause the right was still stowed in half breaks?

It ought to be stowed significantly deeper than half brakes. If you really are set at half brakes, you're pretty much going to hit the object on a serious off heading.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[TomAiello 25]

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To me this sounds less like a problem with currency, and more like a problem with stubbornness or pride. It sounds like this jumper still thinks his method is correct, in spite of his own experience and advice from more experienced jumpers. This is a problem which more jumps, skydiving or BASE, will not correct.

I dunno. As a generalization, I'd say the guys I know with 500+ jumps are a lot more willing to learn (and change their own methods) than the guys I know with 200 jumps. I think that one of the things you learn with experience is that you aren't always right.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[Treejumps 0]

*** "I think that one of the things you learn with experience is that you aren't always right."

Amen. The only thing that I know I've learned is that there will always be more to learn.

[crwper 7]

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I dunno. As a generalization, I'd say the guys I know with 500+ jumps are a lot more willing to learn (and change their own methods) than the guys I know with 200 jumps. I think that one of the things you learn with experience is that you aren't always right.

I agree that high jump numbers and/or time in the sport tends to make people more receptive. However, this isn't always the case. Humility is not a product of higher jump numbers.

You don't become more receptive because you made it to 500 jumps. You make it to 500 jumps because you have learned to be more receptive.

Michael

[NickDG 23]

I met him in 1989, or so, but I've only run into him at a few Bridge Days since then. He's a cool and interesting guy, a student of Moe Viletto, and he did quite a few jumps with Moe's "hideaway" BASE rigs in the early 1990s.

One jump he did I'll never forget was off a local bridge (not very high and with a bad landing area) from the back of a moving pickup. He is standing on a pneumatic plate that blasted him out of the truck bed. It threw him up and over the rail like he came out of cannon. He fabricated the entire system and I thought it was something we'd all be doing, LOL.

From what I recall he was/is a Hollywood stuntman and to him BASE jumping was just another arrow in his quiver, as was skydiving. Anyway he's an alright guy, and I do remember him keeping his BASE jumping quiet even though publicity might have furthered his Hollywood gigs.

I bring up that last bit as during the same time there was another Hollywood stuntman going around day blazing everything in site . . . two high profile jumps were the long blue bridge near me and the big red one in San Francisco. The one near me was totally out of control (and replayed endlessly on local TV) and the one up north ended with two parachutes out and an object strike. The tar was hot on this guy's heels and what saved him is he stopped BASE jumping . . .

Here's more on the first fellow.

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/local/articles/0621parachutist.html

NickD BASE 194

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Isn't this two seperate incidents. There's the CA guys who got hurt yesterday morning jumping in AZ. But this thread is concerning a fellow who jumped in Moab isn't it?

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[TVPB 0]

Hi Nick

I am totally a pro riser person. After all, my other nylon and string passion is CRW.

I say "if inexperienced" because of the usual debate riser v toggle.

I am adamant about students learning to use risers, but I think that experienced jumpers can choose their own fate. That comes with the territory of being experienced.

Fact - toggles DOES give a faster response than risers.

Fact - it DOES take longer to grab your toggles than it does your risers (cf your eg). Even for big grab toggles.

Fact - there is a higher probability that you will miss a toggle as opposed to a riser. Why? Because the target area on a toggle is LESS than a riser. Hence it is more difficult to grab a toggle. Not only do you have to target, you have to manouvre your fingers through the loop and lock your fingers in. Couple that with the stress created during a 180 event. Couple that with the experience people have of performing this action under the same level of stress (not many of us get to practice this before it happens, hence virtually all of us are "inexperienced" when we are correcting our first 180). This all adds up to higher likelihood of object strike.

It is absolutely correct that you can train yourself to be more accurate in this action. This is where skydiving and CRW and other parachuting disciplines assist with your development as a BASE jumper.

As usual, just my opinion.

Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck

The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

[TomAiello 25]

Tom,

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Fact - toggles DOES give a faster response than risers.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by 'faster' here?

Faster as in:

Less elapsed time before a heading change of X degrees?
Fewer horizontal feet travelled forward before a heading change of X degrees?
Both/neither? Something else?

I always find myself wanting to know what people mean by 'faster' in this situation, because in my opinion what is 'faster' (riser or toggle) depends on your definition of 'faster'.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[TVPB 0]

As you said Tom - this is just my opinion. Subject to possible human error and biased perception based on personal experience.

Clarification

<>

Assuming you have correct grips on either riser or toggle the following is evident.
- it takes less force to give the same amount of input on toggles than it does risers. i.e. it takes more effort to pull my risers down 5 inches than it does my toggles. Also, the leverage required for riser inputs makes it more difficult. Depending on your strength, this adds to your control input time.
- aerodynamics: a riser input pulls down a bigger percentage of a canopy than a toggle (surface area). Its affect is more like changing the relative wind angle on one side of a canopy than a straight out turn. Its kind of like the bulldozer affect. The whole rear of the canopy is affectively shaped like a propeller blade and it spins around. Whereas a toggle acts just on the tail and does a more radical job of altering air flow and inducing stall, etc.

From full or partial drive (both toggles busted + pulling down on one), the affect of stall on one side and greater relative drive on the other adds together to speed up the turn. From risers this is slower because both sides still have plenty of forward drive and the stalling affect on one side is less than the other.

It is all a bit different during a BASE opening. I am not 100% sure about the details so the following is just theoretical and open to discussion. I think that most often, people will still have one toggle stowed whilst they are pulling the other one down. On lower jumps with deeper brake settings it means that both sides are closer to the stall. However, the side with toggle input will behave just like in the previous example which will still assist in a more rapid turn.

<>

I think yes overall (statistical average) but it will depend on many factors. These factors include wing loadings, brake settings, canopy airfoil design, age & wear and tear of the canopy/suspension lines/brake lines, prevailing weather conditions, yada yada yada.

<>

This is the mother of all BASE heading questions. How do we minimise this to minimise the chance at wall strike? I would like to add a disclaimer here before I say anything. These are just my opinions and I could be horribly wrong. I am not offering advice and you should do your own research and form your own opinions on your off heading strategies. i.e. its not my fault, tis your fault

Now - lets talk about relative flight. IF you are behind and below another parachutist and heading in the same direction, the best way to catch up is to give rear riser input which will change your angles (realtive wind or attack or whatever). If you are directly below and not behind at all, you give toggle input. If you are high and further behind, you give front riser input. This gives us a bit of a clue as to what happens. I have added more details in the Aerodynamics section of the OzCRW website.

Now, all this becomes a bit more complex in terms of deeper brake settings, etc.

<>

Too true Tom. In the end, we have opinions based on other opinions, experience, and research/technology currently available. Occasionally we are right, sometime wrong.

What do you wreckon? Am I full of sh it or does some of this make some sense?

Stay Safe
Have Fun
Good Luck

Tom

Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck

The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

[NickDG 23]

Tom,

I've seen this many times, and did it myself twice. It's something you can observe going through past Bridge Day videos. A jumper opens using BASE deep brake settings and has a clean 180 (a 180 where you come out of the line twist while opening) and for a second or so the canopy is neither moving forward or back. It's just sitting there. Pull down a rear riser at that point and the canopy will turn 180 degrees almost on a dime. The riser side of the canopy you pull down will start flying backwards. There is no way to do that with toggles. The turn with toggles, because you have to release the brakes, will be much wider and much faster. And both those things blow chunks when the idea is object avoidance. Of course this calls for the perfect brake setting for you canopy size and weight.

If possible spend an hour looking over the rail at Bridge Day. BASE jumpers turn out of 180s quickly and don’t go under the bridge. Skydivers disappear under the bridge and sometimes don’t reappear for quite a while. I've stood there on the edge waiting for clean air more than few times wondering where did that guy go? If it was the New River Cliff instead of Bridge we'd need an industrial size squeegee to scrape the toggle grabbers off the face.

I remember when we didn't know anything about brake settings. or wing loading, in BASE. We are all pretty much jumping the same size skydiving canopies with the factory brake settings. Then we noticed heavier boys covered more horizontal distance than lighter girls did when the brakes are still stowed. This led to the multiple brake setting BASE manufacturers started giving us, and later when we started jumping canopies that were more correctly sized based on wing loading as it relates to BASE jumping, they found the optimum settings and did away with the multiple settings. While these settings also control openings to a degree the first purpose of all this was to have you open with minimal forward speed and give you the time to risers turn away. Being a toggle grabber totally defeats all that. Consider also that releasing brakes, that are set deep, gives you more initial surge forward, no matter how fast you get the toggles down to slow down, and that's no good either.

And when impact is coming most people ball up and cover their heads with their arms. Ask yourself if you want to be in brakes automatically in this situation or full flight?

I keep hearing about "the toggle/riser debate" only here. I never run into any long time BASE jumpers who ascribe to it . . .

NickD BASE 194

[slickrock 0]

Hi People. I was the fellow that hit the wall. I want to clarify that I did go for the left rear riser with my right hand only seconds after pulling down the left toggle. Both toggle and riser were all the way down. I did manage to get the canopy turned but was sliding down wind and hit the fin adjoining the cliff I exited. I know this because I had to swing my body 90 degrees to the right to face the wall for impact. (Feet First.) I was unable to release the right toggle. Just couldn't find it it the mele.
So in closing. Risers are good. Winds are bad. Next time I will walk down.
I have one witness from the ground and he has helped me sort this all out.
I have 126 base jumps and 94 skydives. I have been hurt bad twice skydiving and once base jumping.
Be safe and have fun. If you come to Moab come see us at Slickrock Campground.com
Blue Skies and Brown Rocks!