Something's happening...

[Treejumps 0]

*** "improving the public's perception of BASE and possibly regaining access to many of the best exit points in the US and elsewhere."

This would be a noble cause, however, what Glider seems to be talking about, and what Jimmy is hoping for is to use base to sell products. I don't have a problme with capitalism, but call it what it is.

Base is far from the next big thing, unless you are just late to the party. In fact it is very small and will always be very small, even with death camps and Kibbles camps. In reality, the "extreming" of everything from snowboarding to ironing detracts from that which really is, pretty extreme. To a 10 year old, doing a big trick on a 12' half pipe seems at least as exciting if not much more than a base jump, mainly because he knows how diffcult the half pipe trick is and base doesn't really look" that hard. Yes, there are images that we might find "inspiring", but thats just us and our perspective. To many folks the jumpers in a cliff photo are just taking away from natural beauty, or they are just a pic of some crazies in action.

So use base to sell everything you can, but don't think that it is doing base a favor. I don't see how selling a box of Tide Extreme is going to get Yosemite opened back up.

[jimmyh 0]

As with every sport there have always been those who participate in the capacity as hobbyists and those who manage to support themselves.

My lifestyle doesn't require much, but if I can get what I need to survive through participation in the sports that I love: skydiving and BASE jumping, then I'm gonna go for it.

If Visa wants a shot of BASE jumping bewcause it'll look great in an outdoor magazine and will generate cash flow, then absolutely they can liscence a picture from me.

I personally don't sell any products other than $20 videos, but shot of BASE jumping, I believe, have huge potential in the advertising world.

Without changing the subject tree, tell me what's wrong with that?

[TomAiello 25]

I think that the divide is this:

Those who see themselves as "professionals" feel that they have to make money in the sport, and so they have to commercialize it to whatever extent.

Those who make their money in other ways (the folks Jimmy refers to as "hobbyists") view BASE as a much larger, and potentially more spiritual, experience. To them, commercialization of any extent smacks of prostituting the experience for short term gain.

I think that each of these groups probably sees themselves as the "real" BASE jumpers, and the others as "not committed" enough, or some such.

The first group is thinking "if you really cared about BASE as much as I do, you'd quit your day job and jump all the time."

The second group is thinking "if you really cared about BASE as much as I do, you'd do whatever it took--even getting a job--to maintain the spirituality of the experience."

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[Treejumps 0]

Whos changing the subject?

*** "what Jimmy is hoping for is to use base to sell products. I don't have a problem with capitalism", but call it what it is.

*** "So use base to sell everything you can, but don't think that it is doing base a favor"

I pulled these 2 quotes out of my last post. What part of them are unclear? I don't have a problem with anyone selling photos of base to advertisers to help them sell their products. Just don't confuse selling photos or video of base for personal gain with doing something for the betterment of the sport.
For an example of someone doing something FOR the sport, take notice of the ABP.

So by your definition Jimmy, everyone who does not live in a dumpster at the DZ is merely a base hobbiest? As far as I know that is nearly everyone except for you and a few of your pals. Best of luck selling your photos.

[Treejumps 0]

Well said Tom. Whether either side is right is moot with that summarization.

[jimmyh 0]

Tree,
you didn't change the subject, but you didn't answer my question either.

Tom,
I've never said anything about a separation between real, or spiritual BASE jumpers or anything like that. We're all real people and we're all real BASE jumpers.

In my opinion, you guys are the ones splitting us up into groups:

Those who are "doing something good" for BASE and those who are trying to defile your virgin duaghter.

Here's the split as I see it. People who know what BASE jumping is and those who don't.

Five years ago, I never heard a word about BASE jumping from non-jumper customers coming to the DZ, now at least ten times a day on a Saturday while doing tandems, I hear, "have you ever done a BASE jump?" How is it that the general public is becoming increasingly aware that there is such a sport as BASE jumping? Because they are seeing it through the media. The other day, I was at Fry's checking out HD tv's. All the tv sets in the store were playing a constant loop of all kinds of "extreme sports" footage. Every tenth shot or so was a BASE jumper filmed in HD by a professional camera crew. Who would have thought anyone would ever pay a crew with $90,000 cameras to shoot BASE jumping in order to sell television sets?

And when it comes to Lodi, there's those of us who spend large amounts of time in dumpsters and those who don't. Those who don't are hobbyists.

Tree, when I sent you free copies of RADIX and Standard Issue, I was hoping to begin to build a relationship based on mutual respect if not identical ideas on the future of the sport or philosophies on how to pursue it. Silly me.

[TomAiello 25]

I'm really not trying to be confrontational here, and I am actually interested in discussing this. Please try to understand my thoughts and questions in that spirit.

Quote

Tom, I've never said anything about a separation between real, or spiritual BASE jumpers or anything like that. We're all real people and we're all real BASE jumpers.

In my opinion, you guys are the ones splitting us up into groups:

I apologize then. I think I read something into what you said that wasn't there. I saw this sentence:

Quote

...those who participate in the capacity as hobbyists and those who manage to support themselves.

As drawing a dividing line.

Quote

Here's the split as I see it. People who know what BASE jumping is and those who don't.

Do you see an increase in the first group (people who know what BASE is) as a positive or a negative? Can you explain why you feel whichever way you do?

Quote

Five years ago, I never heard a word about BASE jumping from non-jumper customers coming to the DZ, now at least ten times a day on a Saturday while doing tandems, I hear, "have you ever done a BASE jump?"

I think it was almost exactly seven years ago that I was a non-jumper customer coming to that DZ and asking about BASE...

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[Treejumps 0]

How much clearer can I make it? I don't have a problem with you selling pics of base, skydiving, or anything else.

I don't see how having tandem customers ask you about base equates to anything good FOR base. I also highly doubt its 10 a day, or even 10 a month. I worked a little DZ called Cross Keys the last two years, and with 200 + tandems a weekend going through there I can remember maybe 5 people in 2 years mentioning base. And its not like they were shoving money in my pockets to tell them stories, show them videos, or asking for instruction, it was merely a curious inquiry. Will they sign up for a visa card just becasue it has a base jumper on it? Maybe. Will the current "extreme everything" marketing phase pass? Yes, so cash in while you can, everything is cyclical.

Edited to take out cheap shot.

[JaapSuter 0]

Let's try to remind ourselves about how utterly irrelevant this forum becomes as soon as we're at the exit point, doing our countdown, ready to jump.

Three...
Two...
One...

CYA!

Isn't that what it's all about?

Competitions, marketing, media exposure, objects being burned, accidents, laws, getting busted, politics, the NPS, MTV and Ronald McDonald...

They all fade away. In the end it's all about hanging out with your friends.

Then again, I'm known for a having a little hippie inside me.

[TomAiello 25]

Quote

BTW, I thought you sent those videos so that I wouldn't give an honest review of them.

Come on, Tree, that's a cheap shot. I realize that Jimmy sort of started it, but I think Jaap has a point that a certain amount of calming down would be good for the discussion. Let's not let this degenerate into name calling.

For the record, I thought Radix was an excellent video. I showed it in my First Jump Course, and will likely continue to do so. Even if I don't have time to show the whole thing, Johnny Starter will definitely get fairly high billing.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[jimmyh 0]

I agree Tom,
this is an awesome subject, one very dear to me, and that's why I'm into it.

You're right the Hobbiest/Professional line was divisional, but not in the Real jumper vs. some other kind of jumper way. Just in the sense that I have a vested interest in the potential of BASE especially in the advertising market. Can you imagine a better job than that? I can't. In a nut shell that's why I want BASE jumping to become a well known and respected sport. With my college education, I'm not qualified to do much else than try to squeeze a living out of what I love.

But just let it be known that I will never accuse anyone of not being a real jumper or some such cuz that doesn't make sense.

I don't think this is a confrontational thread, it's positive.

Tree, remember, I'm in Nor Cal. One of the BASE meccas of the world and yes 10 people a day on a Saturday here ask me about BASE jumping. But that might be because I have a huge poster of a BASE jump above the couches where tandem passengers fill out the waivers. They stare at it and go "wow." I see the reaction the shot gets and I know the feeling it invokes. It's that reaction, from non-jumpers, that makes me believe in the future of BASE. How people get into the sport... that's a discussion for people who want to teach like Tom or Miles. I will never have an opinion on what's the "right" or "wrong" way to learn. Not my business.

[Treejumps 0]

*** But that might be because I have a huge poster of a BASE jump above the couches where tandem passengers fill out the waivers.

You think that might have somehting to with it?

[leroydb 0]

Quote

Let's try to remind ourselves about how utterly irrelevant this forum becomes as soon as we're at the exit point, doing our countdown, ready to jump.

So very true, I agree.


Didnt someone post a pic that said, "jump more bitch less?"

Leroy


..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio...

[vandev 0]

The first group is thinking "if you really cared about BASE as much as I do, you'd quit your day job and jump all the time." ***

Here...Here Tom.... I wish i could quit my job and go hang out with the family in europe all summer......Anyone want to pay my mortage and expenses???? I promise i will have fun.....


It's all great if you are a trust fund baby or 22 years old and single but try it at 40....It a juggling match

In the end...the universe has a way of working itself out.... "Harold and Kumar go to White Castle"

[skyglider 0]

Quote

"...you haven't even come close to understanding what it is that drives most people to do this."

My post actually wasn't about with what drives most people to do the sport. That is an entirely different post with an entirely different mode of expression. That sure would be a great post to write about.

My post was actually written with a select group of jumpers in mind now that I think about the BASE audience that I was focusing on the other night - the top BASE athletes and BASE photographers and those who’s passion in life is BASE. It was written with the thought that I strongly believe they can make a good living doing what they love because there will be a market for it. In so many other areas of life, there are so many people that are already taking up slots – there is so much competition in everything. The sport of BASE is so small and the number of dedicated athletes within the sport is even smaller. What a great place to be in when the on-slot of demand begins. How exciting to get the call from some adventure movie producer saying – “I hear you’re one of the best in the sport. How about helping me get a shot of…..” Talking about a commercial on my first post was saying that one day, it will could easily turn into that. But really I’m not talking about product placement, branding, or sponsorships. I think the exposure of the sport could easily begin with opportunities like, adventure video segments on cable and t.v., movie segments on the big screen, magazines articles, IMAX movies, NG,…. If James Cameron were to put millions of dollars into an adventure film and wanted to get a shot of BASE off Half Dome, he would stand a better chance to get a permit than the whole entire BASE community put together. Who do you think will get the call to do the jump? Would it be you? Would you want it to be you? Some jumpers would say “Hell yes!” - some wouldn’t. My post was written with the jumpers who immediately shout “HELL YES!!” Things like that are possible. Opportunities like that could bring more opportunities for more permits, more acceptance, more respect, and maybe even more changes in the laws. Unfortunately it seems to be the people with the money that usually make the biggest influences in the laws or within the local jurisdictions. If we can better the sport through that avenue, I see that as a good thing. I wasn’t supporting any sort of sell out of the sport. That by far was not what I was alluding to. It’s not about having more people join the sport - I want to see those already in the sport succeed and get a piece of the sky.

As far as my number of jumps, TheStump and Sewer210 – Trying to prove that my ideas are so far off because my BASE experience doesn’t likely compare to yours is kind of like me asking how short you guys are or how small your feet are to explain why you guys seem to know it all and carry such a poor attitude about other people. Is this forum really a court room where you two are the lawyers deciding who is the most credible witness on an opinion that has to do with BASE and you get to condemn those that don’t respond to your over-criticizing questions and comments? I wouldn’t want you to re-read the posts that I wrote given the fact that your time is valuable – and my posts are more like essays than posts - and you already “know” the intricacies of what I was trying to say at first glance, but with a different frame of reference - maybe even an open mind - you might interpret what I wrote a little differently at second glance….and then again maybe not.

I still say...stay inspired and stay safe.

edited to make post shorter and to add a face

[Calvin19 0]

"still say...stay inspired and stay safe."

and we will.

the Vampire Bows...

[JaapSuter 0]

Hi Skyglider,

I think most of us realize your posts are well-intentioned. In fact, myself being somebody that talks way too much, I quite enjoy reading your posts. It seems you've put thought into it.

That said, please try to understand that most people who have experienced the essence of base have a different opinion on some of the subjects you touch. What is the essence of base you wonder? In the words of the late Hunter S. Thompson:

Quote

The Edge... There is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over.

That's why some of us think it matters whether or not you have done any base jumps. It may not sound fair, but it puts your thoughts in a different background.

Speaking for myself, I have definitely changed my opinion on a few things now that I have made some base jumps. Things I thought I was pretty sure of before I started.

And when some of us sound a little harsh when we ask whether or not you have made any base jumps, that's just because not everybody has the time to put his thoughts down as eloquently as yourself.

Some of us have jobs...

Speaking of which; I should really start shutting up more. Thanks Skyglider. Don't stop posting. You did start a thread that had some interesting discussion in it.

[skreamer 1]

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As far as my number of jumps, TheStump and Sewer210

Wow, very mature. Perhaps if you'd seen sabre210 (Ian) toughing it out hiking out with a fractured ankle you'd think twice. This is a small community, if you were part of it you'd know better.

In the meantime maybe you and Jaap can have an extreme essay writing contest.

[sabre210 0]

Oh dear, we've reached the name-calling a bit sooner than i expected.

You still evade the question. It's not an attack, it's not rude, it's not unfair, it's not pious, it's not condescending. It's a simple little question. Do you BASE jump?

I've tried to explain why I think it's relevent. I'm trying to get a grip on where you're coming from. Your feet analogy is just silly. It isn't the same at all and, deep down, you know it.

If i piped up in a thread that i thought BASE jumping should be punishable by a minimum 5 years imprisonment, you would want to know where i was approaching this from. To discover i was a building owner would throw a certain light onto my opinions. To discover i was the parent of a dead jumper might throw an entriely different, and I assume more sympathetic, light on the post. If you discovered I was an active jumper then you would no doubt be dumbfounded; Why would I hold such a view?

Surely you can see that your beliefs, your visions, your dreams make more sense when we understand the context in which they are set, and the mindset/personal experience of the person who makes them.

I know very little about the sport of Caving/pot-holing/spelunking. I could find a forum for the people who participate and start expounding my theories on where they should be taking their sport, and how I think they should advance their sport from being underground (forgive the pun), to an extreme youth driven, marketable and highly profitable leasure pursuit.
If i did so, i would expect them to ask me if i was a caver. That's not unfair. That's not them feeling superior. That's just a natural question to ask when you want to understand the context.

Would I place more value on your opinions if i found out you were a jumper? No! JimmyH seems to agree with you and if i'm honest i really don't completely agree with him on this matter - he's a BASE jumper - way way way more experienced than me. I respect that, but i don't have to agree with him, i don't have to see eye-to-eye on every issue with him. Did it stop me ordering his DVD. No! I bought it, i watched it, i thought there was some great stuff on it. Do i agree that flat and stable is dull? No. Do i agree that aerials are dull, no, and do i think jumps need to now be stunts to push the envelope. No. That's me, Jimmy's him, you're you. Fill yer boots. Go for it.

You state that your post is aimed at the top athletes, the photographers, the people with the passion for BASE, implying that this group would want to make a living - get something back from the sport financially. Well i'm no top athlete, I'm no top photographer but i have a passion for BASE which i think would be hard to top but easy to equal. I eat, breathe and shit BASE (forgive the cliche), from the moment i awake through to the moment i go back to bed. If i'm not jumping, i'm planning jumps, and if i'm not typing this shit, i'm checking weather forecasts and looking for new objects.

That's what i'm trying to tell you. For many.....in fact, for all the jumpers i know....the life consuming passion that is BASE isn't about getting it out there to a bigger audience. It isn't about jumping up and down and demanding people take note. In fact, the lower the profile of BASE, the better for most of us. The less people know, the more likelihood we'll get to sneak onto our objects and jump them. I don't care if people don't really understand why i do what i do. I have no desire to have my face on a kids packlunch box. I couldn't give a fuck if i never see an advert or an article on BASE in a mainstream programme on TV. I really hope I won't be able to walk into Urban Outfitters and see a t-shirt with "shut up and basejump" on it.

The more people become aware about what we do, the more they worry we'll sue them, the more they realise, "hey if basejumpers got onto my building then a terrorist/burglar/sniper/pervert could too, better install security cameras and put locks on doors".

That's why i think mainstreaming BASE isn't a great idea. That's why I disagree with you. That's why I asked you if you jumped. Because maybe - not definitely - just maybe, if you were a jumper; were someone who spent hours planning a jump off an object, or looking for objects to jump from , you'd appreciate that public awareness of what we do is actually one of the last things we want.

Money and the backing of a brand/corporation could buy you access to sites we could never get to jump as bandits. I understand that, but legal access isn't the be-all and end-all of BASE. Jumping is though, and on the whole we need LESS publicity to continue to do so, not MORE.

Nowhere in my posts have i resorted to name calling or flaming. I just diasgree on this issue. I have tried to articulate my open and honest views on why i feel the way i do.

Now, i must go. This is going nowhere fast and i feel i need to step aside and give you the last say. This thread has been a lot more interesting (for me anyway) than most which is why i responded. Your views are certainly your own, and i bow to that.

[littlestranger 0]

Call me cynical, but this guy doesn't BASE, and I'm starting to think he may not even skydive...sounds like a marketing guy conducting market research.

Anyone can fill out a profile.

Skyglider...why avoid the question? I haven't done my first BASE jump yet, but I've never felt any less a part of this group because of it...really it's OK.

[Mikki_ZH 0]

Quote

As far as my number of jumps, TheStump and Sewer210 – Trying to prove that my ideas are so far off because my BASE experience doesn’t likely compare to yours...

They did not asked you about jump numbers, they (and some others as well) only want to know if you are a BASE Jumper or not. Why don't you want to answer this question?

Michi (#1068)
hsbc/gba/sba
www.swissbaseassociation.ch
www.michibase.ch

[TomAiello 25]

Quote

My post was actually written with a select group of jumpers in mind now that I think about the BASE audience that I was focusing on the other night - the top BASE athletes and BASE photographers and those who’s passion in life is BASE.

How are you defining "top BASE jumpers/photographers" and "passion in life is BASE?"

It seems like you are assuming that the people who want to be on TV, do stunts for Red Bull, and sell photos to magazines are the "top" because they do this.

This is not the case.

Ever see Dwain Weston do an ad for Nike? So, you're saying he wasn't a "top BASE athlete"?

What about Jamie Boutwell abandoning everything in his life to move cross country so he could jump every day? His passion in life isn't BASE?

You are presuming your definition, I think.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[TomAiello 25]

Quote

Trying to prove that my ideas are so far off because my BASE experience doesn’t likely compare to yours is kind of like me asking how short you guys are or how small your feet are...

This is not true. Not being a jumper would make it more likely that someone would have a skewed view of BASE. Their views would be more formed by what they saw on TV or in videos, and less by what's really going on in the BASE world.

I see this from new jumpers all the time. "But person XXX must be the best jumper on earth--I see him in all the videos." It's a bit like saying "but my friend brought home a video of his tandem jump--they must have thought he was a great skydiver."

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[TomAiello 25]

Quote

...TheStump and Sewer210 ...

A smiley does not make a personal attack less insulting.

Consider this your only warning.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[veter_ 0]

Quote

Well i'm no top athlete, I'm no top photographer but i have a passion for BASE which i think would be hard to top but easy to equal. I eat, breathe and shit BASE (forgive the cliche), from the moment i awake through to the moment i go back to bed. If i'm not jumping, i'm planning jumps, and if i'm not typing this shit, i'm checking weather forecasts and looking for new objects.

That's what i'm trying to tell you. For many.....in fact, for all the jumpers i know....the life consuming passion that is BASE isn't about getting it out there to a bigger audience. It isn't about jumping up and down and demanding people take note. In fact, the lower the profile of BASE, the better for most of us. The less people know, the more likelihood we'll get to sneak onto our objects and jump them. I don't care if people don't really understand why i do what i do. I have no desire to have my face on a kids packlunch box. I couldn't give a fuck if i never see an advert or an article on BASE in a mainstream programme on TV. I really hope I won't be able to walk into Urban Outfitters and see a t-shirt with "shut up and basejump" on it.

The more people become aware about what we do, the more they worry we'll sue them, the more they realise, "hey if basejumpers got onto my building then a terrorist/burgler/sniper/pervert could too, better install security cameras and put locks on doors".

That's why i think mainstreaming BASE isn't a great idea. That's why I disagree with you. That's why I asked you if you jumped. Because maybe - not definitely - just maybe, if you were a jumper; were someone who spent hours planning a jump off an object, or looking for objects to jump from , you'd appreciate that public awareness of what we do is actually one of the last things we want.

Money and the backing of a brand/corporation could buy you access to sites we could never get to jump as bandits. I understand that, but legal access isn't the be-all and end-all of BASE. Jumping is though, and on the whole we need LESS publicity to continue to do so, not MORE.

this is pure GOLD.......