SwoopnHuck 0 #1 October 18, 2004 First off, I am by no means a BASE guru or anything like that. In fact I am a fairly new BASE jumper myself (I have only about 50 BASE jumps to my credit). But I am curious to get the opinion of the more experienced BASE jumpers concerning the influx of new blood into the sport. Is it possible that this is an annual occurence (set around Bridge Day every October) and I just haven't been around long enough? But there seems to be many many many new people who are trying to get into BASE nowadays. In some cases, these are people with decent parachuting experience from the skydiving world, and in some cases it is people with hardly any parachuting experience who despirately want in. I also know that there has been many debates in the past about whether it's better to take someone with skydiving experience, or to take someone with no experience with parachutes at all and the opinions can be radically different from one mentor to the next. So what's the take on all of this? Do some of you experienced folks think that some shit is going to hit the fan very soon due to all of the new people entering the sport? Or is this just a seasonal thing? How do you feel about someone with only a handful of parachute jumps visiting Bridge Day and then deciding that they too want to get into one of the World's most extreme and dangerous activities. Are we sitting on a ticking time bomb here? Is there proper respect for the sport being shown or are people just looking for that next thrill? It's a parachute, it wants to open!!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Faber 0 #2 October 18, 2004 i can only agree whith you... Stay safe Stefan Faber Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bertusgeert 1 #3 October 18, 2004 not to hijack - but do you all feel threatened at all by the increase of interest? Or is it purely a concern for safety and perception of the sport from the outside? --------------------------------------------- As jy dom is moet jy bloei! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freakydiver 0 #4 October 18, 2004 I saw a great quote from one of the more experienced basers in the world earlier this year - he basically stated that with the continuous influx and increase per year of new jumpers, base was going to have an extremely tough time of staying safe and unregulated. I personally agree. I've seen alot of people get involved with the sport very early on in their jumping carrers - more and more over the recent years that can barely handle a canopy landing in a huge open field. -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." -- Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zennie 0 #5 October 18, 2004 Quotebut do you all feel threatened at all by the increase of interest? Or is it purely a concern for safety and perception of the sport from the outside? For me the concerns are primarily safety and site preservation. I was taught by an old-schooler, and I am friends with many other old-schoolers. So for me, BASE is as much about community & friendship (if not moreso) than the jumps themselves. I've only been in the sport for two years, but at least what I see is an element of "dig me and my radness" types who don't seem to be concerned about much except getting good video of themselves. It's a shame really. But I like to think those types are still in the minority. As gear refines and as our sport becomes more socially accepted (*shudder*) I think this sort of thing is inevitable. The same thing happened with skydiving. But, the upside is the possibility of more legal sites opening, and in my mind that's a good thing. As far as people screwing up sites. Man, I hope it doesn't happen, but if it does I can always go off and find my own little neck of the woods that no one else knows about. - Z "Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Faber 0 #6 October 18, 2004 Quoteis it purely a concern for safety and perception of the sport from the outside? sure is,medias loves when people gets hurt they love it even better if its in a way people usaly dont get hurt.. Now try and think of it if a person dies and think of all thouse who tryes to stop our sport..... I dont wanmt to start the old discuse again about jump #´s at BD,but as an high profile event as it is i think its sad that it could be a posibly place to get scars to the sport,just like the latest go fast event(this time just an experinced jumper) using skydive gear and gets hurt, to an event were we would like to have no injuryes... I can only say that yes i feel the sport should keep beeing selfregulated,but i think its time that we start think of theese events as BASE-face out to the public,and we can get hard time enough as a experienced jumper doing a regular jump whith the apropiate gear on,we dont need to show off that we can put off people whith lower jump #´s than normal,using skydive gear or what so ever... IF we show that WE reagulate our self in a safe(at least to the public)way,then we probaly would gain accsess to more of theese events over the world,and might even get acsepted as the sport of BASE in staed of the the sport of thouse crazy f#"ks trying to get as close to kill them self group... I dont care(or should deside) if people should jump low jump #´s,jump skydive gear and so on at home,but please rember that it might impact on how we look to the public if these things goes wrong to any events... I do think were in a "boom" of people wanting into BASE,it has been a trend,its cool that way aslong as we can make it safe as posible... just my humble oppinion. PS. just to add that i really respect the work as Jason and other people are pulling off at event like BD,i know i wouldnt be abel to do the same(actualy not many in the world),i can only thank thouse and hope that i one day myself can jump at thouse events... Stay safe Stefan Faber Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SwoopnHuck 0 #7 October 18, 2004 Quotebut do you all feel threatened at all by the increase of interest? Or is it purely a concern for safety and perception of the sport from the outside? My motivations for creating this thread have nothing to do with being threatened with people wanting to get into the sport and everything to do with concern about the experience and knowledge (or lack there of) of some people towards this sport which ultimately relates to the safety out there. Remember I too am a newbie to BASE jumping. The 40-50 BASE jumps which I have is squat when it comes to being considered experienced. Locally to where I am, there has been a lot of people who have made their first X number of jumps within the last 12 months and in some cases, these new people have decent parachuting experience. But concern lies in the people with minimal experience controlling a parachute yet they still feel the need to expose themselves to the dangers of BASE jumping. And with each new jumper, there is yet another potential jumper behind them saying "yes I too want to get into it" regardless of whether or not the person has spent the time to build canopy control experience. Am I wrong for feeling this way? I don't know? That is why I asked for the opinions of the more experienced people. Is this a seasonal thing? Can we expect that every fall new people will be expressing an interest towards getting into one of the world's most dangerous and extreme sports? It's a parachute, it wants to open!!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tfelber 0 #8 October 18, 2004 How are they "getting involved"? There is not much that can be done (regulation or otherwise) if a jumper decides to throw his skydiving gear on and jump off a fixed object thinking his reserve will open fast enough to save his life. However, if someone is interested in BASE jumping enough to perform the prequisites listed in several different BASE forums, and search out and find someone to mentor them, and said mentor evaluates their ability, motivation, and attitude prior to their first jump, how can this be deemed a detriment to the sport? Even if these types of people are coming in ever increasing numbers? I realize the more jumpers there are the more visable the sport becomes, but I only perceive this as a problem for the illegal side of the sport. The extreme nature of BASE jumping already draws a lot of attention and I think with the increase in media coverage and organized legal events the demand to participate will surely increase. It is up to the mentors to spend the time necessary to ensure the people entering the sport are trained, educated, and qualified. Otherwise having a set of regulated BSR's for BASE is inevitable. I'm sure there is already an understood set of BSR's out there and I saw several fatalities listed where these practices were not adhered to so it's not such a bad idea. On the other hand, BASE is as close to the edge as I can imagine and many human's seem to be drawn to pushing that envelope. Individuals pushing the edge without the knowledge and experience to realize it are the greatest danger. Again I go back to education... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zennie 0 #9 October 18, 2004 QuoteOn the other hand, BASE is as close to the edge as I can imagine and many human's seem to be drawn to pushing that envelope. This is true. The problem I think is that many people don't realize that they really ARE pushing the envelope. With all the video out there people start thinking it's no big deal... they get a false sense of security. The other problem is whether people really understand WHY they are being drawn to it. There is no one right reason, but I sometimes wonder how many people really know themselves well enough to understand why they are doing it. - Z "Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tfelber 0 #10 October 18, 2004 QuoteThe other problem is whether people really understand WHY they are being drawn to it. That is definitely one of the inquiries I am in, and the #1 question I am asked by my family and friends when I tell them I am considering BASE jumping...several can't even understand why I skydive. If you can't answer this question for yourself it's probably best to not step too close to the edge. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eipmoez 0 #11 October 18, 2004 QuoteQuoteThe problem I think is that many people don't realize that they really ARE pushing the envelope. With all the video out there people start thinking it's no big deal... they get a false sense of security. Yes, absolutely. I have experienced this myself in snowboarding. I started snowboarding when most resorts still considered it illegal and when seeing another snowboarder meant instant phone-number exchange. How time has changed... With the invention of the snowboard, powder became accessible to everybody (powder is a lot harder on skis). The result was an exponential growth of backcountry accidents. The snowboard movies make it look really easy with pumpin' soundtracks, nice solid lines through the snow, the perfectly landed cliff-jumps, etcetera. What they don't show is the avalanches that bury people, and the cliff-jumps that went wrong. What they also don't show is how much practice people put into getting that 360 or 540 correctly, so that when the time comes to take it from the man-made obstacle into the backcountry, they know, not guess, they can pull it of 10 out of 10 times. In the backcountry, the margin for error is a lot smaller. And don't get me started on all those people that run off into the backcountry without having done a backcountry course, don't bring avalanche-peeps, and don't have basic snow cut-through knowledge. (I've lost a good friend that way, and it wasn't pretty.) While base-jumping is arguably more dangerous than backcountry skiing, it's an interesting parallel. If skydiving is skiing on the slopes, then base is taking it to the backcountry. Perhaps we can look at how ski-resorts dealt with this problem. Because as base-gear becomes safer, more people will take it from the slopes into the backcountry. /me runs back into his cave now. Must practice more skydiving landing accuracy on base canopy first. Eipmoez $e^{i\pi}+1=0$ how humbling, an error Share this post Link to post Share on other sites KidWicked 0 #12 October 18, 2004 QuoteThe problem I think is that many people don't realize that they really ARE pushing the envelope. With all the video out there people start thinking it's no big deal... they get a false sense of security. Excellent point, and I think you are correct. Consider the following paper from the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology: http://www.apa.org/journals/psp/psp7761121.html (It's title is `Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties in Recognizing One's Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments'). From the abstract: QuotePeople tend to hold overly favorable views of their abilities in many social and intellectual domains. The authors suggest that this overestimation occurs, in part, because people who are unskilled in these domains suffer a dual burden: Not only do these people reach erroneous conclusions and make unfortunate choices, but their incompetence robs them of the metacognitive ability to realize it.Coreece: "You sound like some skinheads I know, but your prejudice is with Christians, not niggers..." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SBCmac 0 #13 October 20, 2004 Quote IF we show that WE reagulate our self in a safe(at least to the public)way,then we probaly would gain accsess to more of theese events over the world,and might even get acsepted as the sport of BASE in staed of the the sport of thouse crazy f#"ks trying to get as close to kill them self group... I don’t know how this is possible, since most of all BASE jumpers do illegal jumps… And for most of us, that’s all we have. So how do you show the public that we are self regulating when we mostly do illegal jumps? Not to mention, I have no desire to attend public events… Why should I spend money to fly to events when I can BASE in my backyard? And finally, I have no desire to be regulated and I won’t let it happen… In my backyard, I will continue to jump what I want, when I want, and without anyone’s approval… The only time I will ever be regulated or ask for approval on an object is when I’m on someone else’s turf. In those cases, I follow BASE ethics and contact the locals… I consult the locals out of respect for my fellow BASE brothers and sisters. Other than that, I will not change the way I BASE so that others can have their BASE events. The only person that is ever going to give me the go ahead at an exit point is me, and only me… Please only take this as my point of view and not an attack on you Faber… I’ve heard this point of view before… And even some of our local BASE jumpers talk about creating a legal BASE association that opens legal sites locally… But as long as the vast majority of us have to do illegal jumps, I just don’t see how it’s possible for BASE to become legal and accepted as a sport like skydiving, since the very foundation of our sport is mostly illegal… The only way I see it possible is that all BASE jumpers worldwide would have to agree to stop doing illegal jumps for hope that one day we will have legal objects to jump… I have to be honest, I’m not willing to do that… Again just my view on BASE events and being regulated… SBCmac Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Faber 0 #14 October 20, 2004 Quotetake this as my point of view and not an attack on you Faber… i dont How will you explain BASE in Germany? were there are some legal places to jump(restricted but legal),but also illegal jumps... it can happen I dont care about many of the big events aswell,but i see no reasson that they stop so my Brothers and sisters cant jump them.. I do agree there will always be urban jumps,i know as im abit like you.. i like the sneaking part aswell,but aslong as people dont see us it cant harm the events Stay safe Stefan Faber Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SBCmac 0 #15 October 20, 2004 Very true... Very true... Good points! SBCmac Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SBCmac 0 #16 October 20, 2004 Where I live, over the past year and a half, we have seen a huge influx of new people getting into BASE… But, over that same period of time, we have also seen a large exodus/ increase of inactive jumpers, mainly the same jumpers that came into the sport in the same year and a half timeframe. So during the summer of 2003, in our surrounding area, everyone and their mother wanted to get into BASE. We ended up having two main groups of jumpers, a North crew and a South crew. A lot of the South crew were jumpers that tried it a couple of times but didn’t stick with the sport. A great majority of those jumpers were just people feeling like they were missing out on something and wanted to prove that BASE wasn’t what it was all cracked up to be. Again, they did one or two jumps and dropped out… As far as the North crew, kind of the same thing happened but people stuck with it a little longer before falling to the way side. All in all, both crews saw a large increase of jumpers and both crews saw a large decrease over time. Over that same period of time, we’ve had several cliff strikes, multiple broken legs, people arrested, and our first BASE fatality. I think over time people saw that there is a real shinny side of BASE and there’s a real ugly side of BASE… I’m not sure why each person chose to leave BASE and I respect them for leaving a sport that wasn’t for them… So to make a long story short… I think BASE cleans itself of the jumpers that are not in it with 100% respect and awareness of the good, the bad, and the ugly sides of BASE. So I’m not worried about the huge influx of new jumpers coming into our sport because of the trend that I have observed in my own area. Without a doubt, we will see an increase in deaths and injuries within BASE because of the increase in numbers of jumpers. But as we have all seen over the past couple years, death and injury does not discriminate in our sport… With this being the case, deaths and serious injury will no longer be something that just happened to some other crew, it will happen to each and every one of our crews. This being the case, being a new jumper will take on a whole new reality and seriousness that a lot of new jumpers today claim they understand but won’t until they are jumping with crews that have been struck by the ugly side of BASE… In the end, your remaining BASE brothers and sisters that stand next to you at exit point, over time and tribulation, will be those that you know for sure are there for the right reasons and are the ones that truly know the price of BASE… SBCmac Share this post Link to post Share on other sites evilivan 0 #17 October 21, 2004 QuoteI think BASE cleans itself of the jumpers that are not in it with 100% respect and awareness of the good, the bad, and the ugly sides of BASE. I agree that there is a Darwin effect on how long people stay with the sport; but isn't that an even bigger issue? BASE is becoming easier to access (FJC's etc), which means people (who haven't really spent time researching BASE before jumping) are taking their inexperience to your local object and raising the chances of shutting it down etc.... and then the b@st@rds may not even have the commitment to still be jumping a year later! (said in humour). And I think with the current situation this will problem will only increase.... I know of several people who have done a FJC but don't have many contacts in their local area (because they didn't go and ground crew etc before the course) who are now pretty much on their own scoping out objects. It would be much better for everyone if they were going out with experienced jumpers; but it takes time to get the trust of the experienced people, mainly due a conflict of interest, and there are less and less reasons to have to commit that time - just book a FJC...."If you can keep your head when all around you have lost theirs, then you probably haven't understood the seriousness of the situation." David Brent Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SBCmac 0 #18 October 21, 2004 Quote BASE is becoming easier to access (FJC's etc), which means people (who haven't really spent time researching BASE before jumping) are taking their inexperience to your local object and raising the chances of shutting it down etc.... and then the b@st@rds may not even have the commitment to still be jumping a year later! (said in humour). Very good point… The cool thing is that I mostly focus my attention on cliffs that are hard to get to and that are technically intimidating… But I see your point because we have one object here that is my all time favorite, that my friend and I worked very hard to open, that I don’t jump anymore because it’s being raped… And we had one of our A’s burned because of an inexperienced jumper… So yeah, I definitely see your point… So what can we do about it??? Again, going back to my earlier post, how do we regulate an illegal sport? Or better yet, how to we encourage new blood to see the big picture without trying to strong arm people? SBCmac Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ManBird 0 #19 October 21, 2004 QuoteOr better yet, how to we encourage new blood to see the big picture without trying to strong arm people?Just strong arm people. I'm new and it's working on me."¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jupija 0 #20 October 21, 2004 just want to know, how teaching newbies is around, when i started my mentor, friend ... told me that if anything goes wrong - i mean if i damege the canopy - that i ll have to buy a new one, and i went along with it .. thank god nothing happened, my volet is happy... but now i c that people around me starts like fjc as it would be a skydiving thing, where u r insured and if u damege the canopy its the concequence of the holder of it... as i was speaking to some they r practising the way where pupil takes all the financiaopnal burden in case something happens - and i support that, couse there has to b part of it where u think if u r really viling to to do it inspite of propable damage that u do, othervise many people will just wanted to try... just my point of view Share this post Link to post Share on other sites evilivan 0 #21 October 21, 2004 QuoteSo what can we do about it??? Again, going back to my earlier post, how do we regulate an illegal sport? Or better yet, how to we encourage new blood to see the big picture without trying to strong arm people? Well...... not an easy question . I personally think that FJC's are not helping the sport; or at least the sneaking around scoping objects, careful planning, understanding the conditions aspect of the sport (which you could argue IS the sport). [Side note: I should add at this point that I am complete newbie - FJC Jan '04, busted leg jump #17 and haven't jumped since the injury] Here is my theory: as I understand it, FJC's were brought in to try and stop people mentoring when they shouldn't, or those who manage to get some kind of rig and chuck themselves off something (I also think FJC's do a lot of good things - mine was very useful and enjoyable, and I learned a lot). Unfortunately FJC's are now more of a commercial offering rather then trying to meet the above, which means that anyone who has the 'minimum' experience criteria can pay their money, and leave possibly even thinking they have the tools to go jumping. Solution? I think we need mixture of the old and the new: If you want to start BASE, you need to do a FJC; but you can only get on a FJC with a recommendation from someone known to those running the courses (and you would of course include other criteria regards # of skydives, amount of GC experience etc). I could go on, but I think that is my point in simple terms..."If you can keep your head when all around you have lost theirs, then you probably haven't understood the seriousness of the situation." David Brent Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SBCmac 0 #22 October 22, 2004 QuoteI personally think that FJC's are not helping the sport; or at least the sneaking around scoping objects, careful planning, understanding the conditions aspect of the sport (which you could argue IS the sport). I also think events like Bridge Day give people the wrong impression about BASE as well. Anyone and their mother can huck off that bridge without proper training during Bridge Day. Sure, they require X number of skydives, but they do not require BASE training… I mean did you know that you only have to have 50 skydives to jump off that bridge on Bridge Day??? That’s crazy!!! A person doesn’t know their ass from a whole in the ground at 50 skydives much less know how to jump into dead air doing a BASE jump in front of thousands of onlookers during an important PR event!!! So again, events like Bridge Day that encourage the “just give it a try and see if you like it” approach, instead of encouraging proper training, are affecting BASE more than we know. As far as myself, I researched and sole searched for well over a year before I did my first BASE jump. And not to mention, after all my time preparing, I still took BR’s FJC to get started. And after all that, I still knew that I had so much more to learn. I also knew that I had to truly respect what I was getting into with BASE, I wasn’t just trying it out… To make Bridge day even worse, BASE manufactures condone the “just give it a try and see if you like it” approach by attending Bridge Day and renting gear to people with only 50 skydives. The funny thing is that you have to have the bare minimum requirements to attend their FJC and buy their gear, but you can bypass all that by renting a rig at Bridge Day. Again, I think this causes a negative ripple affect that we are now seeing in BASE with new blood… So there are a lot of reasons why I think we have problems with new blood in BASE… But I believe the main contributors are events like Bridge Day that encourage anyone and their mother to jump without training, it’s too easy to get gear because people are trying to make BASE mainstream, and people are getting into BASE these days off of a whim, instead of taking the time to approach BASE correctly. But if I had the choice to eliminate one of the above, it would be events like Bridge Day that allow untrained skydivers to do their first BASE jump. I think Bridge day is causing a ripple affect that we are just now seeing. And it’s only going to get worse if we keep letting people bypass proper BASE training… Just my opinion though SBCmac P.S. I didn’t have time to proof read the above, so I’m sorry if it all doesn’t read right Share this post Link to post Share on other sites KidWicked 0 #23 October 22, 2004 QuoteSolution? I think we need mixture of the old and the new: If you want to start BASE, you need to do a FJC; but you can only get on a FJC with a recommendation from someone known to those running the courses Your proposal is at odds with economic forces, and therefore it would not survive. Firstly, BASE equipment manufacturers benefit from having more people in the sport, therefore they have an economic incentive to create more BASE jumpers through training. There is also the free market principle that if a service is desired, a service provider will come forward to provide that service (c.f. Tom's "tanning man" scenario).Coreece: "You sound like some skinheads I know, but your prejudice is with Christians, not niggers..." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TomAiello 25 #24 October 22, 2004 QuoteI also think events like Bridge Day give people the wrong impression about BASE as well. I do not really think of Bridge Day as BASE, in the strictest sense. Bridge Day is Bridge Day, and BASE is BASE. There is some overlap, but there is also a surprising amount of divergence. Bridge Day predates the development of much of what we think of as "modern" BASE jumping. It is an institution of its very own, with its own culture, its own ethics and its own value. I guess what I'm saying is that Bridge Day doesn't exist to serve the BASE community, any more than the BASE community exists to serve Bridge Day.-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nicrussell 0 #25 October 22, 2004 --To make Bridge day even worse, BASE manufactures condone the “just give it a try and see if you like it” approach by attending Bridge Day and renting gear to people with only 50 skydives. The funny thing is that you have to have the bare minimum requirements to attend their FJC and buy their gear, but you can bypass all that by renting a rig at Bridge Day.-- Perhaps the manufactures provide rental equipment at BD to underqualified jumpers in an attempt to minimize traditional skydiving gear (which is still allowed) that gets jumped during BD. If people are permited to jump with a low skydive number, might as well get them under a modern BASE specific setup rather than their old clapped out CRW (see STUDENT) rig. Just speculation. nic Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 1 of 4 0 Go To Topic Listing
KidWicked 0 #12 October 18, 2004 QuoteThe problem I think is that many people don't realize that they really ARE pushing the envelope. With all the video out there people start thinking it's no big deal... they get a false sense of security. Excellent point, and I think you are correct. Consider the following paper from the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology: http://www.apa.org/journals/psp/psp7761121.html (It's title is `Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties in Recognizing One's Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments'). From the abstract: QuotePeople tend to hold overly favorable views of their abilities in many social and intellectual domains. The authors suggest that this overestimation occurs, in part, because people who are unskilled in these domains suffer a dual burden: Not only do these people reach erroneous conclusions and make unfortunate choices, but their incompetence robs them of the metacognitive ability to realize it.Coreece: "You sound like some skinheads I know, but your prejudice is with Christians, not niggers..." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SBCmac 0 #13 October 20, 2004 Quote IF we show that WE reagulate our self in a safe(at least to the public)way,then we probaly would gain accsess to more of theese events over the world,and might even get acsepted as the sport of BASE in staed of the the sport of thouse crazy f#"ks trying to get as close to kill them self group... I don’t know how this is possible, since most of all BASE jumpers do illegal jumps… And for most of us, that’s all we have. So how do you show the public that we are self regulating when we mostly do illegal jumps? Not to mention, I have no desire to attend public events… Why should I spend money to fly to events when I can BASE in my backyard? And finally, I have no desire to be regulated and I won’t let it happen… In my backyard, I will continue to jump what I want, when I want, and without anyone’s approval… The only time I will ever be regulated or ask for approval on an object is when I’m on someone else’s turf. In those cases, I follow BASE ethics and contact the locals… I consult the locals out of respect for my fellow BASE brothers and sisters. Other than that, I will not change the way I BASE so that others can have their BASE events. The only person that is ever going to give me the go ahead at an exit point is me, and only me… Please only take this as my point of view and not an attack on you Faber… I’ve heard this point of view before… And even some of our local BASE jumpers talk about creating a legal BASE association that opens legal sites locally… But as long as the vast majority of us have to do illegal jumps, I just don’t see how it’s possible for BASE to become legal and accepted as a sport like skydiving, since the very foundation of our sport is mostly illegal… The only way I see it possible is that all BASE jumpers worldwide would have to agree to stop doing illegal jumps for hope that one day we will have legal objects to jump… I have to be honest, I’m not willing to do that… Again just my view on BASE events and being regulated… SBCmac Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Faber 0 #14 October 20, 2004 Quotetake this as my point of view and not an attack on you Faber… i dont How will you explain BASE in Germany? were there are some legal places to jump(restricted but legal),but also illegal jumps... it can happen I dont care about many of the big events aswell,but i see no reasson that they stop so my Brothers and sisters cant jump them.. I do agree there will always be urban jumps,i know as im abit like you.. i like the sneaking part aswell,but aslong as people dont see us it cant harm the events Stay safe Stefan Faber Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SBCmac 0 #15 October 20, 2004 Very true... Very true... Good points! SBCmac Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SBCmac 0 #16 October 20, 2004 Where I live, over the past year and a half, we have seen a huge influx of new people getting into BASE… But, over that same period of time, we have also seen a large exodus/ increase of inactive jumpers, mainly the same jumpers that came into the sport in the same year and a half timeframe. So during the summer of 2003, in our surrounding area, everyone and their mother wanted to get into BASE. We ended up having two main groups of jumpers, a North crew and a South crew. A lot of the South crew were jumpers that tried it a couple of times but didn’t stick with the sport. A great majority of those jumpers were just people feeling like they were missing out on something and wanted to prove that BASE wasn’t what it was all cracked up to be. Again, they did one or two jumps and dropped out… As far as the North crew, kind of the same thing happened but people stuck with it a little longer before falling to the way side. All in all, both crews saw a large increase of jumpers and both crews saw a large decrease over time. Over that same period of time, we’ve had several cliff strikes, multiple broken legs, people arrested, and our first BASE fatality. I think over time people saw that there is a real shinny side of BASE and there’s a real ugly side of BASE… I’m not sure why each person chose to leave BASE and I respect them for leaving a sport that wasn’t for them… So to make a long story short… I think BASE cleans itself of the jumpers that are not in it with 100% respect and awareness of the good, the bad, and the ugly sides of BASE. So I’m not worried about the huge influx of new jumpers coming into our sport because of the trend that I have observed in my own area. Without a doubt, we will see an increase in deaths and injuries within BASE because of the increase in numbers of jumpers. But as we have all seen over the past couple years, death and injury does not discriminate in our sport… With this being the case, deaths and serious injury will no longer be something that just happened to some other crew, it will happen to each and every one of our crews. This being the case, being a new jumper will take on a whole new reality and seriousness that a lot of new jumpers today claim they understand but won’t until they are jumping with crews that have been struck by the ugly side of BASE… In the end, your remaining BASE brothers and sisters that stand next to you at exit point, over time and tribulation, will be those that you know for sure are there for the right reasons and are the ones that truly know the price of BASE… SBCmac Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
evilivan 0 #17 October 21, 2004 QuoteI think BASE cleans itself of the jumpers that are not in it with 100% respect and awareness of the good, the bad, and the ugly sides of BASE. I agree that there is a Darwin effect on how long people stay with the sport; but isn't that an even bigger issue? BASE is becoming easier to access (FJC's etc), which means people (who haven't really spent time researching BASE before jumping) are taking their inexperience to your local object and raising the chances of shutting it down etc.... and then the b@st@rds may not even have the commitment to still be jumping a year later! (said in humour). And I think with the current situation this will problem will only increase.... I know of several people who have done a FJC but don't have many contacts in their local area (because they didn't go and ground crew etc before the course) who are now pretty much on their own scoping out objects. It would be much better for everyone if they were going out with experienced jumpers; but it takes time to get the trust of the experienced people, mainly due a conflict of interest, and there are less and less reasons to have to commit that time - just book a FJC...."If you can keep your head when all around you have lost theirs, then you probably haven't understood the seriousness of the situation." David Brent Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SBCmac 0 #18 October 21, 2004 Quote BASE is becoming easier to access (FJC's etc), which means people (who haven't really spent time researching BASE before jumping) are taking their inexperience to your local object and raising the chances of shutting it down etc.... and then the b@st@rds may not even have the commitment to still be jumping a year later! (said in humour). Very good point… The cool thing is that I mostly focus my attention on cliffs that are hard to get to and that are technically intimidating… But I see your point because we have one object here that is my all time favorite, that my friend and I worked very hard to open, that I don’t jump anymore because it’s being raped… And we had one of our A’s burned because of an inexperienced jumper… So yeah, I definitely see your point… So what can we do about it??? Again, going back to my earlier post, how do we regulate an illegal sport? Or better yet, how to we encourage new blood to see the big picture without trying to strong arm people? SBCmac Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ManBird 0 #19 October 21, 2004 QuoteOr better yet, how to we encourage new blood to see the big picture without trying to strong arm people?Just strong arm people. I'm new and it's working on me."¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jupija 0 #20 October 21, 2004 just want to know, how teaching newbies is around, when i started my mentor, friend ... told me that if anything goes wrong - i mean if i damege the canopy - that i ll have to buy a new one, and i went along with it .. thank god nothing happened, my volet is happy... but now i c that people around me starts like fjc as it would be a skydiving thing, where u r insured and if u damege the canopy its the concequence of the holder of it... as i was speaking to some they r practising the way where pupil takes all the financiaopnal burden in case something happens - and i support that, couse there has to b part of it where u think if u r really viling to to do it inspite of propable damage that u do, othervise many people will just wanted to try... just my point of view Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
evilivan 0 #21 October 21, 2004 QuoteSo what can we do about it??? Again, going back to my earlier post, how do we regulate an illegal sport? Or better yet, how to we encourage new blood to see the big picture without trying to strong arm people? Well...... not an easy question . I personally think that FJC's are not helping the sport; or at least the sneaking around scoping objects, careful planning, understanding the conditions aspect of the sport (which you could argue IS the sport). [Side note: I should add at this point that I am complete newbie - FJC Jan '04, busted leg jump #17 and haven't jumped since the injury] Here is my theory: as I understand it, FJC's were brought in to try and stop people mentoring when they shouldn't, or those who manage to get some kind of rig and chuck themselves off something (I also think FJC's do a lot of good things - mine was very useful and enjoyable, and I learned a lot). Unfortunately FJC's are now more of a commercial offering rather then trying to meet the above, which means that anyone who has the 'minimum' experience criteria can pay their money, and leave possibly even thinking they have the tools to go jumping. Solution? I think we need mixture of the old and the new: If you want to start BASE, you need to do a FJC; but you can only get on a FJC with a recommendation from someone known to those running the courses (and you would of course include other criteria regards # of skydives, amount of GC experience etc). I could go on, but I think that is my point in simple terms..."If you can keep your head when all around you have lost theirs, then you probably haven't understood the seriousness of the situation." David Brent Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SBCmac 0 #22 October 22, 2004 QuoteI personally think that FJC's are not helping the sport; or at least the sneaking around scoping objects, careful planning, understanding the conditions aspect of the sport (which you could argue IS the sport). I also think events like Bridge Day give people the wrong impression about BASE as well. Anyone and their mother can huck off that bridge without proper training during Bridge Day. Sure, they require X number of skydives, but they do not require BASE training… I mean did you know that you only have to have 50 skydives to jump off that bridge on Bridge Day??? That’s crazy!!! A person doesn’t know their ass from a whole in the ground at 50 skydives much less know how to jump into dead air doing a BASE jump in front of thousands of onlookers during an important PR event!!! So again, events like Bridge Day that encourage the “just give it a try and see if you like it” approach, instead of encouraging proper training, are affecting BASE more than we know. As far as myself, I researched and sole searched for well over a year before I did my first BASE jump. And not to mention, after all my time preparing, I still took BR’s FJC to get started. And after all that, I still knew that I had so much more to learn. I also knew that I had to truly respect what I was getting into with BASE, I wasn’t just trying it out… To make Bridge day even worse, BASE manufactures condone the “just give it a try and see if you like it” approach by attending Bridge Day and renting gear to people with only 50 skydives. The funny thing is that you have to have the bare minimum requirements to attend their FJC and buy their gear, but you can bypass all that by renting a rig at Bridge Day. Again, I think this causes a negative ripple affect that we are now seeing in BASE with new blood… So there are a lot of reasons why I think we have problems with new blood in BASE… But I believe the main contributors are events like Bridge Day that encourage anyone and their mother to jump without training, it’s too easy to get gear because people are trying to make BASE mainstream, and people are getting into BASE these days off of a whim, instead of taking the time to approach BASE correctly. But if I had the choice to eliminate one of the above, it would be events like Bridge Day that allow untrained skydivers to do their first BASE jump. I think Bridge day is causing a ripple affect that we are just now seeing. And it’s only going to get worse if we keep letting people bypass proper BASE training… Just my opinion though SBCmac P.S. I didn’t have time to proof read the above, so I’m sorry if it all doesn’t read right Share this post Link to post Share on other sites KidWicked 0 #23 October 22, 2004 QuoteSolution? I think we need mixture of the old and the new: If you want to start BASE, you need to do a FJC; but you can only get on a FJC with a recommendation from someone known to those running the courses Your proposal is at odds with economic forces, and therefore it would not survive. Firstly, BASE equipment manufacturers benefit from having more people in the sport, therefore they have an economic incentive to create more BASE jumpers through training. There is also the free market principle that if a service is desired, a service provider will come forward to provide that service (c.f. Tom's "tanning man" scenario).Coreece: "You sound like some skinheads I know, but your prejudice is with Christians, not niggers..." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TomAiello 25 #24 October 22, 2004 QuoteI also think events like Bridge Day give people the wrong impression about BASE as well. I do not really think of Bridge Day as BASE, in the strictest sense. Bridge Day is Bridge Day, and BASE is BASE. There is some overlap, but there is also a surprising amount of divergence. Bridge Day predates the development of much of what we think of as "modern" BASE jumping. It is an institution of its very own, with its own culture, its own ethics and its own value. I guess what I'm saying is that Bridge Day doesn't exist to serve the BASE community, any more than the BASE community exists to serve Bridge Day.-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nicrussell 0 #25 October 22, 2004 --To make Bridge day even worse, BASE manufactures condone the “just give it a try and see if you like it” approach by attending Bridge Day and renting gear to people with only 50 skydives. The funny thing is that you have to have the bare minimum requirements to attend their FJC and buy their gear, but you can bypass all that by renting a rig at Bridge Day.-- Perhaps the manufactures provide rental equipment at BD to underqualified jumpers in an attempt to minimize traditional skydiving gear (which is still allowed) that gets jumped during BD. If people are permited to jump with a low skydive number, might as well get them under a modern BASE specific setup rather than their old clapped out CRW (see STUDENT) rig. Just speculation. nic Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 1 of 4 0
KidWicked 0 #23 October 22, 2004 QuoteSolution? I think we need mixture of the old and the new: If you want to start BASE, you need to do a FJC; but you can only get on a FJC with a recommendation from someone known to those running the courses Your proposal is at odds with economic forces, and therefore it would not survive. Firstly, BASE equipment manufacturers benefit from having more people in the sport, therefore they have an economic incentive to create more BASE jumpers through training. There is also the free market principle that if a service is desired, a service provider will come forward to provide that service (c.f. Tom's "tanning man" scenario).Coreece: "You sound like some skinheads I know, but your prejudice is with Christians, not niggers..." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #24 October 22, 2004 QuoteI also think events like Bridge Day give people the wrong impression about BASE as well. I do not really think of Bridge Day as BASE, in the strictest sense. Bridge Day is Bridge Day, and BASE is BASE. There is some overlap, but there is also a surprising amount of divergence. Bridge Day predates the development of much of what we think of as "modern" BASE jumping. It is an institution of its very own, with its own culture, its own ethics and its own value. I guess what I'm saying is that Bridge Day doesn't exist to serve the BASE community, any more than the BASE community exists to serve Bridge Day.-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nicrussell 0 #25 October 22, 2004 --To make Bridge day even worse, BASE manufactures condone the “just give it a try and see if you like it” approach by attending Bridge Day and renting gear to people with only 50 skydives. The funny thing is that you have to have the bare minimum requirements to attend their FJC and buy their gear, but you can bypass all that by renting a rig at Bridge Day.-- Perhaps the manufactures provide rental equipment at BD to underqualified jumpers in an attempt to minimize traditional skydiving gear (which is still allowed) that gets jumped during BD. If people are permited to jump with a low skydive number, might as well get them under a modern BASE specific setup rather than their old clapped out CRW (see STUDENT) rig. Just speculation. nic Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
