Opinions about all the new blood getting into BASE

[NickDG 23]

You are only behind the person in front of you.

Nick BASE 194

[rendezvous 0]

point taken.

[SBCmac 0]

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Perhaps you view BASE as more important than Bridge Day.

Uh, am I writing things that I can’t see and only you and Skypuppy are seeing? Where do I state in any of my posts that BASE is more important than Bridge Day? In fact I stated the contrary in my last post to Skypuppy. I said “So I’m sure Bridge Day will be around whether BASE is a part of it or not…” And I also stated “BASE jumping is simply one of many events at Bridge Day”…

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Bridge Day is much, much more than a BASE event. It's a huge yearly happening that happens to have some parachuting involved. I like it a lot. I think it has independent value, which is unrelated to the greater world of BASE jumping.

Again, that’s why I said “BASE jumping is simply one of many events at Bridge Day” in my last post…

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I think it has independent value, which is unrelated to the greater world of BASE jumping.

This is where I disagree with you… Yeah, BASE cannot affect Bridge Day or stop it, but Bridge Day can damn well affect the world of BASE. Again like I stated before, Bridge Day represents BASE to the NPS and the world. Let something go wrong with an inexperienced jumper at Bridge Day and the entire BASE community will pay for it in future dealings with the Bridge Day Commission and the NPS. It’s only going to take one jumpers family to sue Bridge Day, because of negligence, to change our world of BASE…

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How many times have you been to Bridge Day?

Once… What does that matter? And what’s your point?

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How would you feel if the Bridge Day Commission (non-jumpers, pretty much one and all) started telling folks in Norway how they ought to manage their legal walls?

I’m lost, where are you going with this??? What we’re talking about here is not abstract or hypothetical… Bridge Day is seen by others, Non-BASE jumpers, as BASE jumping. In fact, it is a proving ground as far as the NPS goes. What happens between the jumpers at Bridge Day and the NPS will greatly affect further legalization of BASE jumping on NP land. So this is again why I’m not excited to know that we let people, with only 50 skydives and no BASE training, represent BASE in front of the NPS and the world...

Again I have no problem with new blood (We are all new blood… We didn’t invent BASE…) and I have no problem with Bridge Day itself. I do however have a problem with the approach that some of the new blood is taking when getting into BASE. I only mentioned Bridge Day because I think Bridge Day condones the few newbies’ approach to BASE by allowing inexperienced skydivers, with no BASE training, to hop off the NRG in front of the NPS and the world, hundreds of thousands of wafo’s, in such a big event like Bridge Day…

SBCmac

[hookitt 0]

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Let something go wrong with an inexperienced jumper at Bridge Day and the entire BASE community will pay for it in future dealings with the Bridge Day Commission and the NPS.

Have you seen Lemmings Extreme? Things have gone wrong.

[tfelber 0]

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Keep the talk coming people. This has been a good thread

I have to agree. This is the conversation that can have a positive effect on BASE. Much better than "Hey BD's next weekend, wanna go?"

I think hearing people's opinions on this matter will help create an alignment in the community that will add to the quality without corrupting the fundamentals.

[tfelber 0]

SBCmac I agree with many of your opinions regarding the effect one bad incident could have on BASE jumping throughout the US, but it's like someone told me one time "The way you present your opinion makes people automatically resist what you're saying"

At the time I couldn't understand what they meant but after several years of contemplation and practice I have found ways to express my opinions so that they can be heard instead of resisted.

You have some very important things to say let people hear you...

I don't think most people with 50 skydives have any idea what could happen or how they would react to a malfunction at 3500' much less 400'.

At 50 jumps, I used to think jumping out of the plane at 2000' was cool.

[SBCmac 0]

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Have you seen Lemmings Extreme? Things have gone wrong.

Exactly Hookit...

Yeah, I have seen videos of things gone wrong at Bridge Day... The difference is that none of the family members, to date, have put one and one together and tried to sue for negligence yet. And like I stated earlier, it’s only going to take one family member who is able to connect the dots to see the negligence that is taking place by allowing jumpers to huck off the NRG with only 50 skydives. This is why in all the posts about “The Price of BASE” and “The Letter” are focused on getting BASE jumpers and their families ready for the what can go wrong in BASE. You skip all those steps to BASE and you get killed, there is a high chance that a family member will be looking for the answers of why they son or daughter got killed at a public event like Bridge Day…

SBCmac

[SBCmac 0]

Point taken... Thanks tfelber
SBCmac

[Treejumps 0]

Hey Mac,

I think that based on your time in sport, and that you are on the wrong side of the big pond. and you haven't actually been to bridge day, that you may just have a skewed P.O.V. For starters, BD would not be much aof an event without BASE. It would be a nice little deep fried food festival with a bunch of touron junk for sale, but it would not be WV's biggest one day event that generates $20M in economic impact without BASE. The 10 year permit granted by NPS pretty much tells that tale of BASE's importance to BD.

Second, BD is not exactly BASE jumping, but more like something that BASE jumping evolved from. BD is ALL ABOUT 1st timers, and that includes those who have more balls than skills, but most of them do just fine. Thats why the boats are there. The nearly injury free event of the last several years stands testament to the improvement of the overall level of knowledge that things like the Base Board and this forum have spread. It is also a testament to the level of professionalism of those who run the event and work the event.

If something happens at BD, it is not likely to affect BASE here in the states, and has virtually zero possibility to affecting worldwide base. At this stage of the game BASE is a known quantity at BD, and any injury or for that matter, a fatality, would be been for what it is; a possible outcome of a dangerous sport.

I have only recently come to realize, thanks to very insightful posts by Nick DG, Gardner, and some others, that were all just borrowing time from base. We can't own it, sell it, or protect it byond our own actions. Tom A is showing you how to help try to steer it in the right direction, but that is about all you can do. Take it old school and help out others all you can. Teach it the right way. Spread the good stories of doing it right..

Its going to keep growing faster, there are going to be less technical and less skilled people getting into it. Rather than discuss this fact and how you feel about, talke about what can be done to help these folks from putting themselves into the shoes (plaster) you walked.

Cya.

[SBCmac 0]

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I think that based on your time in sport, and that you are on the wrong side of the big pond. and you haven't actually been to bridge day, that you may just have a skewed P.O.V. For starters

Are you claiming you know me? "For starters" get your information correct... Yes, I have only been in BASE for three years (skydiving 9 years), but I have seen my share of what BASE entails, from jail to hospital time to watching my best friend burn in on a BASE jump. Second, I have been to Bridge day, and I do like the event. But like I said, I have a problem with people hucking off with no BASE training in front of thousands… And finally, “wrong side of the pond”… What fricken pond are you talking about??? And finally, what does any of the above have to do with anything that is being discussed in this forum?

Not to mention, I bring to the table more than just my BASE and skydiving experience… I bring my entire life experiences to the table. So you may have been in the sport longer than me or you may be older than me, but don’t even try to compare life experience to me when were talking about training and preparation. As a Marine, I spent 9 months in the Gulf during the first Gulf war and 5 months in Somailia following that… I know what the lack of preparation and training leads to, serious injury or death and nothing else…

So don’t tell me I have a skewed P.O.V… My view is my view, it's far from skewed…

SBCmac

[SBCmac 0]

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SBCMac, Skypuppy

Calm down there. I think you may be taking this a little too personally. Let's try to keep this thread moving as a useful discussion, instead of flame fest.

Consider yourselves both warned. This is a good discussion, so I won't lock the thread. Instead, I'll throw you out of the forum for a week or so, so the discussion can continue.

Tom...

I lied about behaving... Does this mean I'm going to get locked out for a week now ...

Sorry ...


SBCmac

[peterk 0]

---Friendly reminder---

THIS IS THE F-ING INTERNET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The moon is full, enjoy it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

---------------
Peter
BASE - The Ultimate Victimless Crime

[skypuppy 1]

Oh yeah… By the way, since you’re so knowledgeable about Bridge Day and all, you obviously know that Bridge Day was not and is not based around BASE jumping. BASE jumping is simply one of many events at Bridge Day…
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BD is about BASE jumping - if the first Bridge Day was 1980, I believe the first jumping at a BD was probably '81 (maybe '82 - it was invite only)... The marketing effort is directed towards BASE jumping - even the rafters advertise that you'll stop under the bridge and watch the parachutes...

Strangely enough, in 23 or 24 years of BASE jumping at Bridge Day there's been only 2 deaths associated with it(one a drowning before their were enough boats to handle every jumper), the last one back in about '85. And that is despite the fact that when the 50 jump rule came into effect, I believe there was NO bottom limit before that. A very conservative estimate of the number of BD jumps would be somewhere around 12 - 15,000 over the years (just counting legal Bridge Day jumps), so I think your fears are misplaced 2 deaths in 12,000 jumps is not a bad percentage compared to some other BASE jumping venues around. Certain 'pro' or 'high-profile' events started in the last 3-4 years or less have had much worse accidents then Bridge Day over the years - because BASE jumps are about the object, and with proper training the NRGB is a very safe object. I once figured I could train a chimpanzee to do a BASE jump off it without any problem...
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The NOT will happen eventually if we keep allowing inexperienced jumpers to huck off that bridge in front of hundreds of thousand of wafo’s without proper training. Things will change overnight if we traumatize one jumper’s family, because that jumper unnecessarily burns in because of lack of training, and they sue the event for negligence. Which negligence could easily be proven by allowing people to huck off that bridge with only 50 skydives and no BASE training…
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To begin with there are BASE courses given at BD, adequate for the object... There have been deaths and injuries, they have not shut BD down so far - if anything I believe BD is safer now than in the '80's when I started going down...

You are taking a narrow-minded view of what you think should be the way to run a sport and trying to change the way an event that has been THE introduction to the sport for THOUSANDS of BASE jumpers and been jumped by thousands of other experienced jumpers and making a judgement that it should be changed. Did you expect me (or Jason or anyone else) to say 'Yeah, that's right... Why haven't we been doing it that way... Man that SBCMac is a smart cookie?'

I don't agree with a lot of things I see happening in BASE right now, and sometimes with the attitudes of some people coming up, but BRIDGE DAY IS NOT ONE OF THEM... The day they even decide to ban skydiving equipment at BD will be a sad day (hope it never happens). Some of my fond memories are seeing a guy go off with a sleeve-packed Para-Commander with a spring-mounted p/c in a B-12 military surplus harness/container. Problems with conservative skydiving equipment (larger 7-celled canopies) are caused by lack of knowledge and/or improper rigging, not gear inadequacy.

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[TomAiello 25]

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Does this mean I'm going to get locked out for a week now ...

I'm afraid so.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[favaks 0]

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I think that based on your time in sport, and that you are on the wrong side of the big pond. and you haven't actually been to bridge day, that you may just have a skewed P.O.V. For starters, BD would not be much aof an event without BASE. It would be a nice little deep fried food festival with a bunch of touron junk for sale, but it would not be WV's biggest one day event that generates $20M in economic impact without BASE. The 10 year permit granted by NPS pretty much tells that tale of BASE's importance to BD.

Treejumps,

You have your opinions and Mac has his, and I respect that, but you don't know him. I was there with him at Bridge Day.
Time in sport doesn't mean anything if you don't have the right attitude, passion, and mindset. Life experience will carry you a long way. Most old time jumpers I've met have huge egos, and look down on other jumpers just because they've been in the sport longer. BIG FREEKIN DEAL!

favaks

[TomAiello 25]

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Time in sport doesn't mean anything if you don't have the right attitude, passion, and mindset.

Conversely, attitude, passion and mindset can only get you so far without time in sport. I'm only just starting to learn that.

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Most old time jumpers I've met have huge egos, and look down on other jumpers just because they've been in the sport longer.

Wow. Really? We must be meeting totally different old timers, and they're just aren't that many of them out there. I think about the old timers I've met--Rick and Randy, Rick, Nick...I really can't think of any of them with attitudes.

Perhaps the people you think of as old timers really aren't all that old (in the sport, I mean)? When I think "old timer", I think 15+ years in the sport. The guys with 5 years and a ton of jumps (nothing against them, I'm one of them) don't really qualify, in my book.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[BASE813 0]

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Hey Mac,

can I reiterate, this is not me the responses are directed too.........

[NickDG 23]

Tom has made this point and maybe better than I can, but Bridge Day is a stand alone event. It has a history, traditions, a life of it's own really, and certainly it can be viewed separately from the rest of the sport.

A person making a first BASE jump with only 50 skydives at Bridge Day will have a very different experience than the person who does the same thing in a more traditional BASE environment.

And anyway, when I think of hard numbers, in terms of when to begin BASE jumping, I temper my thoughts with the memory of my own first BASE jump. I had 650 skydives at the time and the whole thing was still a big scary blur that ended in a dodgy landing.

There is something else about Bridge Day and it's something we noticed years ago, and something jumpers still remark about today. You can stand by the rail for a few hours, and see almost every conceivable parachuting mistake that's possible to make, yet the parachutes still seem to work. No, we aren't kidding ourselves. I realize if it was the New River Gorge Building, instead of Bridge, we'd need industrial size squeegees to scrap them off.

However, training, especially with all the advances that have occurred in that area, is steadily closing the gap from when we all thought you needed at least 500 skydives to make a first BASE jump. In fact, there was no number then, it is just understood that you should be an "experienced" jumper.

The first time anyone said you needed 150 to 200 skydives prior to BASE is when the BASE gear manufacturers did it. This was in response to some people buying BASE rigs over the phone and making BASE jumps on their own with no prior parachuting experience. Two or three of these folks are on the list.

Will the training level ever get to the point that a BASE jump can routinely be a very first jump? I don't know. But, I wouldn't bet against it.

Someone up-board mentioned old timers with attitudes. I can't say (as I'm barely an old timer myself
Go ahead and try to wipe the smile from my face . . .

Nick BASE 194

[Treejumps 0]

Hi Mac,

I am not claiming I know you and all my opinions are based on what you've writen on this board. Your response was all about the "dissing" you seem to have percieved from my post. I was not putting you down in any way, but simply writing down why I thought you had these ideas. Dick DG by far does the best job responding to the "what are we going to do about all these newbies" threads. I probably made one myself a few years ago.

What you did not respond to was what I said about BD, and how doubtful it is that it could have any impact on BASE in the USA, much less the rest of the world. Your opinion about BD is likely a very minority one.

My apolagies, but I thought you were a UK jumper, hence the "big pond" statement. I'm just not sure where you are going with all of this. As stated, the sport will continue to grow at a more and more accelerated pace. It is not possible to regulate it, bottle it, sell it, or whatever. BASE is prety much what you jump and who you jump it with. How can you do anything to affect that? Teach the new guys best you can. Pass along the good word. Share your knowledge and experiences. If you help one person avoid death or injury you will have done your part. If you can talk one person out of even trying it... more power to you. That would really save someone a lot of headaches.

It is all good, until it isn't.

Tree

[NickDG 23]

>>Dick DG by far does the best job responding to the "what are we going to do about all these newbies" threads.<<

Who ya calling a Dick . . .

NickD BASE 194

[base428 1]

This is definately an interesting and educational thread and I'm glad we all have the opportunity to add to the discussion. I just got the chance to read everyone's posts and I can understand all sides of the issue. I'm sure Avery and Andy have been snickering along with me if they've read this thread.

I won't get into much detail, but here is some info that may enlighten us all.....

1) The 50 jump rule came into effect for BD2003. Before that, there was NO minimum. I discussed implementing a minimum with many jumpers and with Bill Bird (BD co-organizer and someone who's been to every BD since 1982). We agreed that 50 was a good number for a variety of reasons. However, we are open to changing it in the future. Just for kicks, did you know the average number of skydives for a BD2004 jumper was 1199 (the highest number over the last 3 years)? If I were to go through the list, you'll not find many jumpers in the 50-100 jump range. I'll try to analyze the jump numbers and post that information for everyone to digest.

Further statistical data on BD is available HERE

2) BD is an easy first BASE jump. As Skypuppy mentioned, the last fatality was 1987 (not to say that it couldn't happen every year). We do everything humanly possible to make it safe each year.

3) BD has been around for 25 years. It is what it is and it's probably not going to change. I'm already counting the days until next year.

As I mentioned before, this thread is quite valuable. Anyone who identifies problems should also provide solutions. Do you think the 50 jump rule is not enough? If so, then what would be a good number?

(c)2010 Vertical Visions. No unauthorized duplication permitted. <==For the media only

[Faber 0]

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Second, BD is not exactly BASE jumping

sorry guys your all wrong.

Will you tell any whith a US BASE # were they got their first(now we talk qualifying)object at BD that they didnt got it as it wasnt a BASE jump?
come one..
Im even sure Nick D will agree here, Jumping off an object whith a packed canopy on your back is BASE jumping.
dont play your self arround.

Tom about the big walls on this site of the pond..
as i know they require more than 50 jumps to enter a COURSE just to let people jump off the wall.I do agree that an cliff aint the best object to start whith,but i dont think you can compare the wall and BD

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If something happens at BD, it is not likely to affect BASE here in the states

so not having a BD the year after a fatality wont matter?? i doubt.BD is old and most of us hope it only gets older,thats why theese concerns has been said...

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[Faber 0]

Cheers Jason im happy to read your post,just what i neededIm happy that most jumpers atemting BD has far more jumps than the 50 we talks alot about.

I can only speak from what i read as i sadly never ere to a BD event yet.

just one Q,as you say you guys might considder the jump # thing,if the jumpers has so high jump #´s i guess it wont be a problem any way?I mean if most people are experienced skydivers anyway,they wont care about a rule they easy can overcome.
Just a thourght...

all i do is fighting so i one day can stand on that S whith you guys,and BASE jump off it

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[NickDG 23]

>>Do you think the 50 jump rule is not enough? If so, then what would be a good number?<<

Hi Jason,

You can certainly up the numbers rule, and it's maybe only natural in times when jumps are easier to make, but if I may, bear in mind that Bridge Day has always been, for many people, an available portal into the BASE community. Unless, the worst begins to happen, I think you should always try to keep that door as wide open as possible.

Nick BASE 194

[TomAiello 25]

Be aware that I have banned SBCMac for 7 days, so he will not be able to respond to this thread. His failure to continue responding to your points is my fault, not his.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com