FrogNog 1 #1 December 17, 2003 I believe it was Phree I saw saying that he doesn't do all his stows. The locking stows at least, but not all of the rest of them, and leaves like 8 feet of line just coiled in the container. I'm considering doing this myself. Probably not soon (Winter causes uncurrency around here), and probably not before my own personal gear arrives. So this thread is about what's wrong with not doing all the line stows after the locking stows. What sorts of hideous things can go wrong? Why do we even bother doing the extra stows if line dump (provided there is no bag dump) doesn't really cause problems? -=-=-=-=- Pull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kris 0 #2 December 17, 2003 The stows are to keep the lines nice & neat. Worst case scenario, the lines tension knot on each other causing a mal, or the bag (or locking stows on the bag) catch some of the lines on the way out causing the bag to spin and hella-linetwists to ensue. I'm having my rigger sew a pocket onto my D-bag to hold my excess line. At your experience level though, I really wouldn't recommend it without talking to an experienced rigger about the possible problems.Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #3 December 17, 2003 Don't... simply I do it since I'm using dozens of tricks I've learned over a 1000+ pack jobs to control the lines. There is a specific way you need to put the lines in the container unless you want a nice big knot coming out of the container behind you. One of the biggest reasons I did it is to prove the people that say "use tighter rubber bands to get a softer opening" wrong in their belief. There is a LOT more to lose and absolutly zero to gain by not following the manufactors directions. Things like all the lines knotting, its really easy to pack bag locks, you have to watch the loops or you can pack spinning openings, line twists are easy to pack into the pack job also with out rubber bands. Bands make the pack juob neat and easy to control. They have invested a lot more time and money into packing and rigging then I have. Trust the manufactors and pack it how their manual mentions. Do go and talk to your rigger about how the stow pocket on the freebag works if you want to see how this thought process is already in use.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
murrays 0 #4 December 17, 2003 Am I the only one out here who has a sense of deja vu when it comes to free stowing suspension lines? Around the time I started jumping (in 1980) this was a practice that was strongly discouraged because of at least one fatality (in Canada for sure) attributable to free stowed lines tying themselves around a main container flap and creating a horseshoe that couldn't be cut away. One of the contributing factors to the earlier fatality(ies) was the presence of plastic stiffener plates at the end of main container flaps. Containers were subsequently designed to help prevent this by tapering the flaps and making them so that lines couldn't tie themselves to the main container. My opinion is that it's a good idea to have your lines clear your main container with your deployment bag..whether the lines are stowed in a tail pocket, rubber bands or a pocket on the d-bag. Because most reserve free bags have the lines stuffed into a pocket I don't believe that the lines have to be stowed in rubber bands but I believe they should be lifted clear as early in the deployment sequence as possible. Last summer, at our dz, a new jumper with less than 100 jumps started talking about coiling his lines into his pack tray because he'd seen someone do it or heard about it. Gives me the heebie jeebies to see a potentially dangerous practice resurface. Eric points out that he does this in a particular way to avoid certain other problems. There may be a way to do this safely but I feel that the worst possible outcome of freestowing lines - a horseshoe - is worse than getting a bag lock from using rubber band stows.-- Murray "No tyranny is so irksome as petty tyranny: the officious demands of policemen, government clerks, and electromechanical gadgets." - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FrogNog 1 #5 December 17, 2003 Yeah, I don't think I'm going to do it. (As in, I'm very sure I'm not going to do it.) I'm pleased to have thought of most of the problems people listed so far, including the "half-hitch round yer flap(s)" one. None of these risks is worth the very minor benefit of not having to make the rest of the stows. At best it would shave my pack job from 60 minutes to 55. I'll stick with regular pack jobs. Even proper free-stowing sounds cool but I don't see it gaining me anything. OK, I'll file this underbaked idea in the same place I put BASE jumping. -=-=-=-=- Pull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tombuch 0 #6 December 17, 2003 QuoteAm I the only one out here who has a sense of deja vu when it comes to free stowing suspension lines? Around the time I started jumping (in 1980) this was a practice that was strongly discouraged because of at least one fatality (in Canada for sure) attributable to free stowed lines tying themselves around a main container flap and creating a horseshoe that couldn't be cut away. Ah yes. Been there done that, back in the 80's. I had excess line wrap around the locking stow (on a deployment strap) causing a very nice streamer. It was an easy malfunction to identify and cut away. That was the end of the packing strap and freestowed lines for me. When I began BASE jumping in the early 80's free stowing lines was considered a reasonable way to speed the opening. That morphed into rubberbanding the lines as free stows in the container, then the rubber bands were attached to the container. Finally, tail pockets came into play. Don't try free stowing your lines. It has been done before, and it really doesn't work. Tom Buchanan Instructor (AFF, SL, IAD, Tandem) BASE 128 Author JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and EasyTom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Luv2Fall 0 #7 December 17, 2003 RTFM - neatness counts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChrisG 0 #8 December 17, 2003 In the late seventies, early eighties, we used to free pack all the time. No bag, no bands, no nothing, just cram it in! Me or anyone I knew ever had a problem with it. The main reason people stopped doing it was because of hard openings, but they were pussies anyway. :-) Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumperconway 0 #9 December 17, 2003 Only in a Wings! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
twnsnd 1 #10 December 17, 2003 I know someone who has been known to do this. But he has also been known to ride a short bus and has an annoying limp. -We are the Swoophaters. We have travelled back in time to hate on your swoops.- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sssbc99 0 #11 December 17, 2003 A good thing to mention is that you are better off to have a little more line unstowed than to have too little. I was told to leave atleast 12 to 14 inches. I was just mentioning this because i have seen people leave a lot less than that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ChasingBlueSky 0 #12 December 17, 2003 Exactly - I've yet to hear anyone officially in the industry say it was OK to freestow (aka boogie pack). If you are really curious about this - contact each parachute manufacture and ask them what they feel about it, then contact the rig makers and ask what they think._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #13 December 17, 2003 QuoteIn the late seventies, early eighties, we used to free pack all the time. No bag, no bands, no nothing, just cram it in! Me or anyone I knew ever had a problem with it. The main reason people stopped doing it was because of hard openings, but they were pussies anyway. :-) Yeah the nose bleeds were not that bad... and when you are in your 20's a good POSITIVE opening is no problemo.....well except for blowing steering lines because it opened so positively..but there are always rear risers to steer with.. again.. no problemo... you cope...you deal... 23 years later I think I will stick with cramming all this crap in the tiny little bag and making nice neat line stows on the bag... I LOVE a long snivel. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites webracer 0 #14 December 18, 2003 This is not a good idea unless you are quite careful figure-8-ing the unstowed lines. Even then you may be asking for trouble. Years and lots of mals have been spent developing the current deployment staging. Deviation may result in more reserve rides than normal. Give it a try though, it's your life!Troy I am now free to exercise my downward mobility. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites murrays 0 #15 December 18, 2003 I looked up the Technical Bulletin issued by the Canadian Sport Parachuting Association regarding free stowing of suspension lines. The bulletin was issued in 1980 after 2 Canadian jumpers died 10 days apart where free stowing was a factor. "This practice is no longer considered to be advisable or recommended." The link leads you to a pdf file containing 49 bulletins. The free stowing one is Technical Bulletin #4 from 1980 on page 5 of the pdf file. They recommended having at least 50% of the lines stowed on a bag or diaper so that an entanglement with the main container would be far enough below the main canopy that it would likely open. You have to put that scenario into today's skydiving world...I don't want to be under a Stiletto tied to my main container!! When everybody jumped Clouds and Pegasus canopies, this scenario would likely be survivable if the canopy opened. Under today's small canopies I think it would most likely result in serious injury or death. Remember that we stand not only on the shoulders of those who came before us but also on many of their graves. And with that cheery thought I will leave you...-- Murray "No tyranny is so irksome as petty tyranny: the officious demands of policemen, government clerks, and electromechanical gadgets." - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyflyerbritany 0 #16 December 18, 2003 can we say BAAAAAAAAAAAG LOOOOOOOCK!!!!!!!!!!!! or one big bundle of crap Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hookitt 0 #17 December 18, 2003 Quotecan we say BAAAAAAAAAAAG LOOOOOOOCK!!!!!!!!!!!! or one big bundle of crap You can... but I've done it many times and don't see how it will cause any of the above mentioned. The reason was the same as phreezones. It was to prove that loose line stows do not cause hard openings. I closed the first 2 locking stows and nicely placed the lines in the container. There was no noticeble difference in the opening speed. I didn't just do it once or twice, I've experimented for the entire season with very loose or non existant stows except for the first 2. No I don't recommend it. It's better to stow the lines to keep them orderly. Earlier in the thread it was mentioned why free stowing was a problem. Newer rigs don't have the same type of flaps. Lines are not going to wrap around a stiffener and get stuck there. However that's no reason not to stow it. Leave stupid experiments to people like me. None the less it's much easier and advisable to stow them.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites FrogNog 1 #18 December 18, 2003 QuoteA good thing to mention is that you are better off to have a little more line unstowed than to have too little. I was told to leave atleast 12 to 14 inches. I was just mentioning this because i have seen people leave a lot less than that. Yeah, I've packed a few with less than 8 inches. They opened fine. I think. I'll try and work on finishing my stows the perfect length, of course, but I figure as long as I can get it to fit in the pack with the risers in the right place, it'll be fine. If I get a line twist, it was probably "body position". -=-=-=-=- Pull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Designer 0 #19 December 18, 2003 We used to do shit like that just to see if it would work?Anyone remember the raeper?Coiled the majority of the line unstowed into the bottom of the container.No Shit,it worked!Not even recommended for todays High performance babies!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sundevil777 94 #20 December 19, 2003 QuoteIf I get a line twist, it was probably "body position". I think that it is usually the bag getting a spin due to the way it gets pulled off your container or uneven forces from the stows releasing. I think you are probably not deploying in an unusual body 'attitude'. I don't know why experienced jumpers are willing to give blame to poor body position that they cannot even detect.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AggieDave 6 #21 December 19, 2003 QuoteI don't know why experienced jumpers are willing to give blame to poor body position that they cannot even detect. I don't think its so much bad "body" position as it is leg position in the harness. As you know, you can fly very well, straight, etc and have your legs skewed some. On fully articulated harnesses with elliptical canopies that little bit can make the difference on opening (specifically once snatch force hits and during the snivel) between on heading and offheading (sometimes linetwists). You can counter the same thing at the same time, though by weighting the other side. Just IMHO, of course, though.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lt9144 0 #22 December 19, 2003 Really not much need to discuss past Tombuch's post. Many of us have jumped squares with variations of diapers or raepers that only used 3 or 4 short stows, hence the lines had to be coiled in the container. It wasn't a big deal until circumstances caused a deployment from an unstable body position, and then things could get weird fast. That's one reason why modern reserves are designed so that all the lines leave the pack tray stowed in a reserve free bag. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AggieDave 6 #23 December 19, 2003 QuoteThat's one reason why modern reserves are designed so that all the lines leave the pack tray stowed in a reserve free bag You peaked my curiosity. Could you tell me the events/reasons that lead up to that and the variations of how things were done prior to now?--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lt9144 0 #24 December 20, 2003 Well, here's how I make sense of it. Early round reserves like the belly mounts and early piggybacks had the lines stowed in the pack tray of the reserve container by rubber bands, and the canopy was flaked and "S" folded from bottom to top, with the closing loop or loops thru one of the folds. Canopy left, then the lines. The best of the round reserves had a diaper, or piece of fabric with rubber bands on one side and grommets on the other that held the skirt closed until line stretch pulled out the couple stows that fixed the diaper around the skirt (this was to minimize the chance of a lineover). The problem was that if you were tumbling on deployment, the lines were mostly "with you" as the canopy snaked out, and therefore the chances of a line getting hooked on your canopy release, altimeter, helmet, or something else was a real problem. The modern freebag arrangement gets canopy and lines all off your back in one bag assembly so that if you tumble, only the risers and the very bottom of the lines are involved, and the rest of the lines can unstow out of the bag and the canopy will probably inflate normally. The newer bag designs are much less prone to bag lock, to such an extent that it now makes sense to bag reserves. If you coil the lines in the bottom of your container, you run the same risk from an unstable deployment as you had with those older reserve designs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AggieDave 6 #25 December 20, 2003 QuoteIf you coil the lines in the bottom of your container, you run the same risk from an unstable deployment as you had with those older reserve designs. Thank you! That was a very clear and precise explaination that answered my questions.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." 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ChasingBlueSky 0 #12 December 17, 2003 Exactly - I've yet to hear anyone officially in the industry say it was OK to freestow (aka boogie pack). If you are really curious about this - contact each parachute manufacture and ask them what they feel about it, then contact the rig makers and ask what they think._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #13 December 17, 2003 QuoteIn the late seventies, early eighties, we used to free pack all the time. No bag, no bands, no nothing, just cram it in! Me or anyone I knew ever had a problem with it. The main reason people stopped doing it was because of hard openings, but they were pussies anyway. :-) Yeah the nose bleeds were not that bad... and when you are in your 20's a good POSITIVE opening is no problemo.....well except for blowing steering lines because it opened so positively..but there are always rear risers to steer with.. again.. no problemo... you cope...you deal... 23 years later I think I will stick with cramming all this crap in the tiny little bag and making nice neat line stows on the bag... I LOVE a long snivel. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
webracer 0 #14 December 18, 2003 This is not a good idea unless you are quite careful figure-8-ing the unstowed lines. Even then you may be asking for trouble. Years and lots of mals have been spent developing the current deployment staging. Deviation may result in more reserve rides than normal. Give it a try though, it's your life!Troy I am now free to exercise my downward mobility. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
murrays 0 #15 December 18, 2003 I looked up the Technical Bulletin issued by the Canadian Sport Parachuting Association regarding free stowing of suspension lines. The bulletin was issued in 1980 after 2 Canadian jumpers died 10 days apart where free stowing was a factor. "This practice is no longer considered to be advisable or recommended." The link leads you to a pdf file containing 49 bulletins. The free stowing one is Technical Bulletin #4 from 1980 on page 5 of the pdf file. They recommended having at least 50% of the lines stowed on a bag or diaper so that an entanglement with the main container would be far enough below the main canopy that it would likely open. You have to put that scenario into today's skydiving world...I don't want to be under a Stiletto tied to my main container!! When everybody jumped Clouds and Pegasus canopies, this scenario would likely be survivable if the canopy opened. Under today's small canopies I think it would most likely result in serious injury or death. Remember that we stand not only on the shoulders of those who came before us but also on many of their graves. And with that cheery thought I will leave you...-- Murray "No tyranny is so irksome as petty tyranny: the officious demands of policemen, government clerks, and electromechanical gadgets." - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyflyerbritany 0 #16 December 18, 2003 can we say BAAAAAAAAAAAG LOOOOOOOCK!!!!!!!!!!!! or one big bundle of crap Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #17 December 18, 2003 Quotecan we say BAAAAAAAAAAAG LOOOOOOOCK!!!!!!!!!!!! or one big bundle of crap You can... but I've done it many times and don't see how it will cause any of the above mentioned. The reason was the same as phreezones. It was to prove that loose line stows do not cause hard openings. I closed the first 2 locking stows and nicely placed the lines in the container. There was no noticeble difference in the opening speed. I didn't just do it once or twice, I've experimented for the entire season with very loose or non existant stows except for the first 2. No I don't recommend it. It's better to stow the lines to keep them orderly. Earlier in the thread it was mentioned why free stowing was a problem. Newer rigs don't have the same type of flaps. Lines are not going to wrap around a stiffener and get stuck there. However that's no reason not to stow it. Leave stupid experiments to people like me. None the less it's much easier and advisable to stow them.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FrogNog 1 #18 December 18, 2003 QuoteA good thing to mention is that you are better off to have a little more line unstowed than to have too little. I was told to leave atleast 12 to 14 inches. I was just mentioning this because i have seen people leave a lot less than that. Yeah, I've packed a few with less than 8 inches. They opened fine. I think. I'll try and work on finishing my stows the perfect length, of course, but I figure as long as I can get it to fit in the pack with the risers in the right place, it'll be fine. If I get a line twist, it was probably "body position". -=-=-=-=- Pull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Designer 0 #19 December 18, 2003 We used to do shit like that just to see if it would work?Anyone remember the raeper?Coiled the majority of the line unstowed into the bottom of the container.No Shit,it worked!Not even recommended for todays High performance babies!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 94 #20 December 19, 2003 QuoteIf I get a line twist, it was probably "body position". I think that it is usually the bag getting a spin due to the way it gets pulled off your container or uneven forces from the stows releasing. I think you are probably not deploying in an unusual body 'attitude'. I don't know why experienced jumpers are willing to give blame to poor body position that they cannot even detect.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #21 December 19, 2003 QuoteI don't know why experienced jumpers are willing to give blame to poor body position that they cannot even detect. I don't think its so much bad "body" position as it is leg position in the harness. As you know, you can fly very well, straight, etc and have your legs skewed some. On fully articulated harnesses with elliptical canopies that little bit can make the difference on opening (specifically once snatch force hits and during the snivel) between on heading and offheading (sometimes linetwists). You can counter the same thing at the same time, though by weighting the other side. Just IMHO, of course, though.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lt9144 0 #22 December 19, 2003 Really not much need to discuss past Tombuch's post. Many of us have jumped squares with variations of diapers or raepers that only used 3 or 4 short stows, hence the lines had to be coiled in the container. It wasn't a big deal until circumstances caused a deployment from an unstable body position, and then things could get weird fast. That's one reason why modern reserves are designed so that all the lines leave the pack tray stowed in a reserve free bag. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #23 December 19, 2003 QuoteThat's one reason why modern reserves are designed so that all the lines leave the pack tray stowed in a reserve free bag You peaked my curiosity. Could you tell me the events/reasons that lead up to that and the variations of how things were done prior to now?--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lt9144 0 #24 December 20, 2003 Well, here's how I make sense of it. Early round reserves like the belly mounts and early piggybacks had the lines stowed in the pack tray of the reserve container by rubber bands, and the canopy was flaked and "S" folded from bottom to top, with the closing loop or loops thru one of the folds. Canopy left, then the lines. The best of the round reserves had a diaper, or piece of fabric with rubber bands on one side and grommets on the other that held the skirt closed until line stretch pulled out the couple stows that fixed the diaper around the skirt (this was to minimize the chance of a lineover). The problem was that if you were tumbling on deployment, the lines were mostly "with you" as the canopy snaked out, and therefore the chances of a line getting hooked on your canopy release, altimeter, helmet, or something else was a real problem. The modern freebag arrangement gets canopy and lines all off your back in one bag assembly so that if you tumble, only the risers and the very bottom of the lines are involved, and the rest of the lines can unstow out of the bag and the canopy will probably inflate normally. The newer bag designs are much less prone to bag lock, to such an extent that it now makes sense to bag reserves. If you coil the lines in the bottom of your container, you run the same risk from an unstable deployment as you had with those older reserve designs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #25 December 20, 2003 QuoteIf you coil the lines in the bottom of your container, you run the same risk from an unstable deployment as you had with those older reserve designs. Thank you! That was a very clear and precise explaination that answered my questions.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
