ifell 0 #26 October 5, 2012 QuoteFor example the TI that lost his rating for letting granny fall out of the harness would be a good example of someone I wouldn't want teaching folks how to drive let alone wingsuit. Yet this person had the rating and had there not been video on that jump things might be different. He was able to demonstrate he could communicate AND prioritize correctly to get the rating though. A WSI rating would not stop bad teaching but I do agree it would people accountable but in the end pointing the finger after someone its the tail does not fix the problem Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 622 #27 October 5, 2012 PADI??? Are you kidding me??? I have plenty of Telecom and IT instruction certs. I'm a teacher! I can teach wing suiting, gun safety, AND scuba! Woot! You guys have GOT to be kidding me. If a manufacturer rated instructor doesn't meet your personal requirements...how the hell does a scuba instructor pass merit? That's just a silly comparison!! This entire discussion just became worthless. wow Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WickedWingsuits 0 #28 October 5, 2012 QuotePADI??? Are you kidding me??? I have plenty of Telecom and IT instruction certs. I'm a teacher! I can teach wing suiting, gun safety, AND scuba! Woot! You guys have GOT to be kidding me. If a manufacturer rated instructor doesn't meet your personal requirements...how the hell does a scuba instructor pass merit? That's just a silly comparison!! This entire discussion just became worthless. wow I am not saying a PADI instructor with no wingsuit experience can be a wingsuit instructor...am I. The current BSR defines someone that can educate a wingsuiter as someone with wingsuit experience. What harm does adding some sort of teaching standard USPA or not do to that? You saying thats bad advice or just that it is WS-I or nothing?Summer Rental special, 5 weeks for the price of 4! That is $160 a month. Try before You Buy with Wicked Wingsuits - WingsuitRental.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WickedWingsuits 0 #29 October 5, 2012 QuoteQuoteFor example the TI that lost his rating for letting granny fall out of the harness would be a good example of someone I wouldn't want teaching folks how to drive let alone wingsuit. Yet this person had the rating and had there not been video on that jump things might be different. He was able to demonstrate he could communicate AND prioritize correctly to get the rating though. A WSI rating would not stop bad teaching but I do agree it would people accountable but in the end pointing the finger after someone its the tail does not fix the problem As I predicted! "I am sure there are crappy instructors of all kinds out there so that is a different argument that we can start next.. "Summer Rental special, 5 weeks for the price of 4! That is $160 a month. Try before You Buy with Wicked Wingsuits - WingsuitRental.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 622 #30 October 5, 2012 I'm done. I'll wait for the ballot. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #31 October 5, 2012 QuoteAs do the students...so why do we have college??? The UK BPA requirements are far simpler than the proposal for the WS-I, WS-I/IE, WS Course Director... proposal that was submitted to USPA. The PASA requirements are also far simpler. Please tell us why you think such a simpler approach won't work.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fasted3 0 #32 October 5, 2012 Quote I'm done. I'll wait for the ballot. Whew, I'm glad he's gone. Deliberately playing stupid, (again,) adds nothing to the discussion, and the point was perfectly clear. The coach rating is geared toward teaching wuffos how to skydive, and the most relevent reason given for requiring it for wingsuit instruction is the teaching skills imparted by the coach ratiing. The USPA coach rating course is not the only place to learn how to teach, and if one is a good teacher, no matter where they learned how to do it, and a knowlegable wingsuiter, then they have as good a chance to impart the necessary skills as anyone else. This is why I'm against the WSI proposal. Excluding qualified people is what it's all about, and carving out exclusive terrain in our sport for selected people. A jumper with 200 jumps should be able to figure out for himself who he wants to teach him to fly. As for people teaching it wrong, ie: exiting with wings open, how about just calling them out on it? Name some names so people will know who not to go to. To me, that will help aspiring wingsuiters a lot more than setting up an exclusive club within the USPA heirarchy that may or may not give us any better results than we have right now. I'm sick of all the 'facts' being tossed out on this issue which I suspect are half rumors and BS. I'd like to know more about the supposed rash of tail strikes. I'd like details of the 5 newbie wingsuiters that went in, when I only know of 2. I want to know who is giving bad wingsuit instruction, and exactly what they are doing wrong. Put all the facts on the table before asking the membership to make this important decision. It feels like a railroad job to me and the tracks may well be leading someplace we're better off not going. BTW, I'm not a wingsuit instructor or want to be one.But what do I know? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #33 October 5, 2012 QuoteI’ve noticed that several posters in this tread list in their profile they are “wing suit instructors”. Who determines who is an instructor? What are requirements to become a “wing suit instructor”? Is there training syllabus or lesson plan of some type the “wing suit instructors” follow or is every man for themselves? QuoteI would venture it is in reference to a wingsuit manufacturer rating. In the US anyway. Same as for tandem "instructors". See FAR Part 105.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 622 #34 October 5, 2012 USPA T-I. Agreed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #35 October 5, 2012 Quote USPA T-I. Agreed. FAR Part 105 says nothing about USPA T-I. From FAR Part 105:43 (iv) Has successfully completed a tandem instructor course given by the manufacturer of the tandem parachute system used in the parachute operation or a course acceptable to the Administrator. (v) Has been certified by the appropriate parachute manufacturer or tandem course provider as being properly trained on the use of the specific tandem parachute system to be used.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skwrl 56 #36 October 5, 2012 QuoteI'd like details of the 5 newbie wingsuiters that went in, when I only know of 2. Even using the broadest definition of "wingsuit-related death", I don't think that there have been "five newbie wingsuiters that went in." In a different thread, I posted the following block of text. Note that I am not taking a position on whether the wingsuit was a causal factor in these deaths, simply reporting that the following fatalities occurred while the jumper was wearing a wingsuit. * * * In the US, there have been five [now six] fatalities in which the jumper was wearing a wingsuit in the past five years. In 2007, Christopher "Race" Price died in an apparent low/no pull situation (Moab, Utah). From what I understand, he had fewer than 200 jumps and not many wingsuit jumps. (I don't have exact numbers.) In 2008, Dan Kulpa died when he failed to wear his leg straps on his second wingsuit jump (Sebastian, Florida). He also had fewer than 200 jumps. In 2009, Steve Harrington died when he struck the tail (Elsinore, California). He had multiple thousands of skydives and at least a thousand wingsuit jumps. He taught numerous first flight courses, including part of mine. In 2010, Pete Luter died when he had a spinning mal followed by a very low cutaway (Zephyrhills, Florida). A witness reported he appeared to be non-responsive during his malfunction. A medical event was suspected. He reportedly had hundreds of wingsuit jumps. Also in 2010, Kerry Lou Kirch died after landing, when her canopy re-inflated and she fell backwards and struck her head on a rock. (St. Mary's, Georgia). My understanding was that she also had over a hundred wingsuit jumps. * * * Add to this the most recent fatality (Irina Sinitsyna, the subject of this thread), and the total is 6, only two of which (Messrs. Price and Kulpa) could be reasonably considered "inexperienced" wingsuiters, in my opinion.Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fasted3 0 #37 October 5, 2012 I agree, and the 2 you mention are the ones I know of, yet there have been posts by at least 2 different people that claim 5 examples of people with less than 200 jumps dying in a wingsuit. This was done to promote the current WSI initiative. I'm all for an open and honest debate about this subject, but not for supporting it with made up facts. For the same reason, I'd like to find out more about the other 'facts' being tossed around about this. Were there really 11 tail strikes by wingsuiters last year? Are there really instructors teaching exits with open wings? If we are supposed to make a decision based on these 'facts,' I for one would like to know that they are indeed facts at all. Thank you for providing this information. The format and details provided are the kind of things that seperate rumors from facts.But what do I know? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WickedWingsuits 0 #38 October 5, 2012 Don't forget the 70+ that died before USPA banned Wingsuiting.Summer Rental special, 5 weeks for the price of 4! That is $160 a month. Try before You Buy with Wicked Wingsuits - WingsuitRental.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zeemax 0 #39 October 5, 2012 QuoteQuoteAs do the students...so why do we have college??? The UK BPA requirements are far simpler than the proposal for the WS-I, WS-I/IE, WS Course Director... proposal that was submitted to USPA. The PASA requirements are also far simpler. Please tell us why you think such a simpler approach won't work. The UK BPA system isn't exactly great. If I were to teach it word for word, I should be teaching students to cut their arm wings away in free fall if they become unstable. Additionally, it requires a minimum of 3 coached jumps to be able to jump with anyone else - and even then, only a three way. Then it needs a minimum of 6 coached jumps to jump with more than two other people.Phoenix Fly - High performance wingsuits for skydiving and BASE Performance Designs - Simply brilliant canopies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 622 #40 October 5, 2012 Dan was clearly a newbie, unless 2 jumps will get you on a Guinness record anyway. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fasted3 0 #41 October 5, 2012 QuoteDon't forget the 70+ that died before USPA banned Wingsuiting. Ok, let's count Icarus too. Speaking of myths, the number you say was basically pulled out of somebody's ass too. I wonder if that was used to ban wingsuits in the first place? This time, let's stick to facts.But what do I know? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #42 October 5, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteAs do the students...so why do we have college??? The UK BPA requirements are far simpler than the proposal for the WS-I, WS-I/IE, WS Course Director... proposal that was submitted to USPA. The PASA requirements are also far simpler. Please tell us why you think such a simpler approach won't work. The UK BPA system isn't exactly great. If I were to teach it word for word, I should be teaching students to cut their arm wings away in free fall if they become unstable. Additionally, it requires a minimum of 3 coached jumps to be able to jump with anyone else - and even then, only a three way. Then it needs a minimum of 6 coached jumps to jump with more than two other people. Don't confuse deficiencies in a curriculum with the qualifications required to be an instructor.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #43 October 5, 2012 QuoteDan was clearly a newbie, unless 2 jumps will get you on a Guinness record anyway. Did he hit the tail?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 622 #44 October 6, 2012 umm, no... Yet his name WAS clearly mentioned in the post I replied to, but thanks for inquiring. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NSEMN8R 0 #45 October 6, 2012 QuoteI’ve noticed that several posters in this tread list in their profile they are “wing suit instructors”. Who determines who is an instructor? What are requirements to become a “wing suit instructor”? Is there training syllabus or lesson plan of some type the “wing suit instructors” follow or is every man for themselves? SparkyI got my "rating" from Nick Rugai at Nitro Rigging. You can download the course materials here http://nitrorigging.com/documents. It's a good thorough course. I've probably taught 30 or so people to fly and nobody's hit the tail yet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #46 October 7, 2012 Quoteisn't this out of topic and also feeding some I hate wingsuit instructor trolls out there? Just asking. IMHO It is way more interesting that nobody questions elliptical canopies being used at big ways. It is no guarantee that no problems like this will happen but it will improve things for sure. Yes I know about w/l as well..... bring it on elliptical people, and while you are at it pls defend your choice if you use that canopy type for big ways. I agree with you it may have been off topic in the original thread but if you notice it has been mover to wing suit forum. You are the one off topic by bring up canopy types for big ways on this tread. And no I am not a troll, I am looking for information. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
birdynamnam 28 #47 October 7, 2012 woups dod not mean that, just forget it, i misunderstood. I just hate reading here people bitching about wingsuit instructors Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #48 October 8, 2012 Quotewoups dod not mean that, just forget it, i misunderstood. I just hate reading here people bitching about wingsuit instructors What I am trying to find out is what constitutes a “wing suit instructor”? Are there minimum qualifications, a test or what. I am not trying to piss anyone off I am just looking for information. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #49 October 8, 2012 QuoteWhat I am trying to find out is what constitutes a “wing suit instructor”? Are there minimum qualifications, a test or what. I am not trying to piss anyone off I am just looking for information. Sparkythe Phoenix-Fly First Fly Coach course is a course for people willing to become coaches for a safe beginning in wingsuiting. To attend and to succesfully complete the course, there are some pre-requisites, theory and practice, and test jumps.scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #50 October 8, 2012 QuoteQuoteWhat I am trying to find out is what constitutes a “wing suit instructor”? Are there minimum qualifications, a test or what. I am not trying to piss anyone off I am just looking for information. Sparkythe Phoenix-Fly First Fly Coach course is a course for people willing to become coaches for a safe beginning in wingsuiting. To attend and to succesfully complete the course, there are some pre-requisites, theory and practice, and test jumps. Thank you. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
