dudeman17

That sounds odd to me. If Cossey was the principal rigger at his dz's loft and maintaining the student gear, I would think he would need a master certificate. A senior reaper can pack reserves and do nominal repairs, but more serious repairs and mods, especially to the harness/container, require a master rating. Are you sure that was initial issue and not a renewal? How old was Cossey at the time?

I think it's highly unlikely that he was a no-pull. On any given jump, the odds are highly in favor of survival. However, people do occasionally go in. And there certainly have been no-pull/low-pull fatalities that the who and how left everyone scratching their heads. So, on any given Sunday, as they say, anyone can bounce. But with over thirty years experience in dealing with first-time jumpers, I think I have a pretty good take on how different types of people are likely to react. So even if you start with assuming Cooper has no jump experience whatsoever, my professional opinion is that if he has it in him to go through with this caper, then he has it in him to pull the ripcord. Even if he's tumbling and out of control. And if he pulls, he all but assuredly gets an open canopy. I've seen, seen video, and heard of people deploying in out of control f'ed up body positions, and even with hand deployed throw out pilot chutes they get open. With a rigger packed reserve canopy and a ripcord activated, spring loaded pilot chute coming off his back, all the better. Add to that Andrade's research on WWII bailouts. If he has military/combat experience, as many men of his age and era did, then all the more experience with focus under pressure. And if he had any parachuting experience, which his handling of the chutes would seem to indicate, that adds to his chances. So my bet is that he got under an open canopy. After that... ???

But was he? I would doubt it. Any dropzone, such as Sky Sports, among their community of jumpers there would be a number of riggers. But if Cossey was the principal rigger at Sky Sports' loft then it makes sense that it's his name on Hayden's rigs. I'm guessing that the flight service that took care of Hayden's plane would also take care of his rigs, and they would just go to the local dz. And it was that flight service that came up with Hayden's rigs. And that would explain Cossey's name on Hayden's rigs despite the two men saying they never met each other.

You think Cooper knew who Cossey was? Ha, you're tipping your (Haggar's?) hand there. But from an objective viewpoint, I think Cooper was hoping to get mains for 'back' rigs. When he got the bailout rigs, which are reserves, he would want to know what the canopies were. A rigger will sometimes note which kind, if any, of steerability the canopy has. Cossey did not note that, but Cooper wouldn't know that until he looked at the card. The fact that he even knew to look at the cards would show at least some familiarity with parachutes.

If he knew anything about parachutes and how to use them, then knowing what kind of canopy is in the rig would help him. That information would be on the packing card.

I get all that. And Cossey was all over the place, so who knows what his trip was. I was addressing the nomenclature and what all that means. I don't know who first came up with the term "Pioneer Steinthal", but using it as though it names a particular rig is not accurate. They were separate companies. Likely it refers to a container manufactured by Pioneer, containing a canopy manufactured by Steinthal, or something like that. And using that term as though it precludes the rig from being an NB-6/8 could also be inaccurate. It's quite possible that Pioneer made the NB containers. So then it would be like arguing whether a car is a Chevy or a Camaro.

I think I tried this before, but I'll do it again. I hope Bruce sees this as well. And I suck at internet searches, so I couldn't find anything that definitively conflates this. 377 could probably help. But, as general information... I always note when you guys cite 'Pioneer Steinthal' chutes, as opposed to "NB-6' or 'NB-8'. 'The Pioneer Parachute Company', and 'M. Steinthal and Company' are separate companies that manufactured parachute components. (Butler, and Switlick were others.) NB-6 and NB-8 are designations of particular parachute rigs that were apparently contracted by the military. I believe 'NB' designates 'Navy Backpack', and the 6 or 8 probably meant whether they were sized for 26' or 28' parachutes. It is possible that Pioneer and/or Steinthal won contracts to manufacture the NB's or parts thereof. A quick look at pictures shows that Hayden's rig at least resembles an NB.

Umm, not sure when this was... https://www.thedbcooperforum.com/db-cooper/new-forum-news-updates/4720/?wap2

Thanks, but no, not my credit. See NickyB's post #57354 above. He cites a Gene Bland as having that idea the day after the hijacking. I just confirmed that such was possible.

I'm not claiming anything. Apparently Gene Bland identified this the day after the hijacking. Not sure when his statements were made available to the public. A quick look at the pictures of Hayden's returned rig shows that it does have such snaps on the leg straps. I'm just confirming the possibility.

Interesting that this Gene Bland has both the front reserves as training dummies, and one intact and the other canopy both left on the plane. As for... ...(attaching the reserve container to the leg strap attachments) that is entirely possible. These days most leg straps just have thread through friction adapters which would not allow that, but in those days I think most rigs, especially pilot rigs, had B-12 snaps on the leg straps that have the 'V' ring mentioned. Those V-rings aren't that big, I questioned whether two clips would fit on one, but I happen to have an old rig with B-12's on it in my closet, so I pulled it out and indeed you can fit two clips on one. That would put the reserve container below your crotch, across your thighs, but if you had the money bag tied to your chest that might just be the best fit. Hmmm... Good to see you on here, Nick, but it wracks me with guilt. As much grief as I gave 'the other guy' about it, I got otherwise occupied and that other task got left undone. I'll have to get on that... As for the Lyle Camerons, I think you said you talked with Jr.? Super nice guy. ------- I think this came up before, too. There's no way a P.C. would be in that coupon book, skydiving is just not mainstream enough for a company like that. But that is just the sort of thing a skydiver would make a joke about.

But AFF rigs have that reserve side handle on the BOC. She should have paid more attention in class!

Except that he said... ...which if that means what it sounds like, that the pull out is on the left side (which is odd and unusual but not unheard of), then the pilot chute bulk wants to be in the lower left corner?

Did you ever finish AFF?

It is odd that it or nothing of it was left on the plane. If half the canopy and lines were cut off to make it easier to repack as a training device, it might have held some of the money as it was, but that would be a lot of bulk to tie to himself for a little bit of money that might otherwise fit in his pockets or his pants. Well that's how I try to earn my keep around here, since most of my comments are either obvious speculation or smart-ass remarks, haha.

This did come up before. I think I was the one that noticed that they weren't pink and speculated whether they might be from the dummy chute. But I looked into it and it turns out that they were most likely already there when given to Cooper. They are there to tie the bottom of the container to the harness. The main structural attachments of the reserve to the main harness are those metal clips. But then the bottom of the reserve container would be free to move and flap about in freefall. In earlier and various versions of gear there were straps and or clips to attach the bottom, but with the mix and match of various gear it became easier just to tie it down with those pieces of line. Again, that's nothing structural about the attachment, it just holds the bottom of the container down. That one picture of Linn Emerick standing in front of the rack of reserves at his dropzone, you can see those lines on a few of them. That's known as a larks head. It's just a piece of line folded in half, the looped end is put through/around the handle and the loose ends put through the looped end. If you were to try to re-close the packed chute, yes. But if you cut the chute out and just tried to put money in there it shouldn't be that hard to reset the ripcord or just tie it shut.

The school at the drop zone you go to will have their own ideas about how to get you recurrent. And you will do it on their student gear. Wait until you are going through that process, and talk to the instructors and canopy coaches there. Then you will have a better idea of what gear to look for.

I have a question about diatoms. This has probably been addressed somewhere, but I'm not very good at searches. How rugged are they? The diatoms represent an exposure to water at a certain time of year. But what if the bills were exposed to water again? Would the old diatoms remain, and both sets be found, or would the old ones wash away and be replaced by the new ones? So do the diatoms represent the only time the bills were exposed to water, or possibly just the last time they were?

That's an interesting idea, but that crater would have eroded away loooong ago, especially in an area where it rains a lot. It depends on the terrain and how hard/compact the dirt is, but bounce craters generally aren't very deep. One notable exception, if any of you are ghoulish enough to appreciate the humor in this. One time back in the 80's, some guy went in at Perris, and impacted in a neighboring nursery. Between rains and their soil preparation, this area was muddy to the point that walking through it, you'd sink in about shin to almost knee deep. Well, this guy's crater was a bout a foot or so deep. After everything was taken away, a couple jumpers who lived across the street in a trailer park known as 'the ghetto' made a plaster of paris mold of it, and set it in their yard as a birdbath. The drop zone owner caught wind of this, and smashed it up with a sledge hammer. Killjoy!

That could be a tradeoff of clues. On one hand, if he asks for the flaps to be lowered sometime during the flight, that could help pinpoint his jump location. On the other hand, giving up the distance range in order to have them down the whole time might indicate a planned sooner jump. What would the range of that plane be flaps up, gear up and higher altitude? Would they make it to Mexico without refueling? As far as them misinterpreting the timing of his flap/gear demands, when they start talking about a fairly quick refueling need, that would clue him in to that?

Some of this talk about how dzo's treat base jumpers reminds me of some years ago when I was teaching at a particular dz. A local jumper asked me about renting a student rig so he could try out a new base canopy. When we approached the school manager and dzo about it, they heard the word 'base' and immediately said NO! As much as we tried to explain that he did not want to use a slider down pack job and stress their harness, and he did not want to pull at 200', he just wanted to get a feel for how the canopy flew, they just didn't want to hear it. However... I think I'm with Joe on this one. It seems that every so often some one post wonder comes in here with some version of the same scenario. They want to get into base without bothering to learn how to skydive. I suspect it's the same troll.

You should post a link to that.

SST Struggle Struggle Thump Some people used to say that as Struggle Scream Thump, but most SST jumpers were not the screaming type.

I'm not sure what your problem is, nwt. You seem to like being argumentative, and belligerent about it. Do you have that 'god complex' that they ascribe to some MD's? I read your above post with an open mind. I am not a pilot, and, our previous discussion notwithstanding, I try not to pay much attention to FAA bureaucracy. (I have been a TI since '91, so I did hold a medical from whenever it was that they started requiring them until covid hit and I stopped doing them.) My question was very specific and legitimate. You asserted that... All I had heard was that they had it hooked up to a cypres, so that intrigued me. Your statement... Would have sufficed as an answer. But... Really? I don't think that I've fallen into any 'trap'. I know how a cypres works. I've been an AFF-I since '90. While I have spent a lot of time with a radio in hand helping guide students down, I have never held a device that could fire their cypres if I thought they were about to go in. So for the totality if your posts here, perhaps you should consider... ...yourself.

So what is the original problem? Why do they have it in for this TI? What's with 'terroristic threats' on the students? Can you shed some light on any of that?