dudeman17

A lot of people with brass ones don't necessarily act like badasses. Many people in adventure sports - skydivers, base jumpers, extreme skiers, big wave surfers, big wall climbers, aerobatic pilots... and the like, even some extremely badass military people I've met, people with balls and nerves of steel, don't act like badasses. A lot of them are pretty chill, have great senses of humor, laugh a lot like giddy kids having too much fun.

Math of Insects, most of us are pretty much anonymous to each other. But we're all just friends, typing stuff about a common interest. I'm genuinely curious about what your experience is that gives you an opinion on bouncing bodies. Mine comes from watching people do it for forty years. BSBD!

Spotting an exit point in order to land in a specific area requires more info and control than Cooper had. You'd want to see the ground, at least familiar reference points, you'd want to know the upper winds (to calculate drift), and you'd want to be able to ask the pilot for corrective heading adjustments. So he was pretty much rolling the dice as far as where he'd land. If I were doing it, I'd want to know as much as possible about the surrounding terrain. How much was mountainous and tree'd as opposed to flatter and more open fields. How does that stuff relate to the city lights you might see? I'd want to take a test flight and time how long into the flight were the better areas, as opposed to the mts and lakes. But, how much variation is in the flight path from 'go to Mexico' and 'settle on Reno'? Having trouble with the stairs affects your timing. The whole thing is a crap shoot, especially in those days with rounds, especially with the non steerable ones he was given. As far as getting off the stairs, you'd just have to do whatever worked. It depends on how far they opened. Once you're at the end, it's loud, it's cold, you really can't see where you are (in his weather conditions) so you might as well just go. The timing of the pull... Hopefully you're at the requested 10 grand. But that's MSL. What is the terrain elevation below, specifically the highest points? I'd like to know what the lowest cloud base was. If I knew I had a couple thousand feet between the lowest cloud and the highest mtn, I'd fall through the clouds and see where I was. But rainy often means lower clouds, so you probably wouldn't have that luxury. So I'd time it to accommodate the highest terrain, unless I knew for sure I was elsewhere. There are just so many variables that were out of his control, or that he would be able to see. You'd just want to prepare yourself by knowing the possible terrain as well as you could. The guy certainly had the magic combo of stupidity and balls.

I don't think the weight of the money would affect it that much, it's his body weight leaving that allows the recoil to happen. However... The stair recoil resulting in a pressure bump is an odd thing to me, and unless Cooper was familiar with the engineering involved, it would be a hard thing to predict. Again I refer to the Treat Williams movie, those stairs don't move very far or very fast. That could be due to a cameraman on them further up, as Flyjack pointed out, but I would think it might also have to do with whatever pressure is in the hydraulic system. If there is any to much pressure in them, I would think it would dampen the movement. I would think that you would have to pull the emergency release, disconnecting them from the hydraulics, in order for them to move freely enough to recoil that much or that fast. But Fly says that didn't happen. So hard to say, but I don't see the pressure bump as a predictable occurrence. Yet it also happened in at least one of the subsequent jumps (McCoy's?).

On more modern gear, the closing loop that the pin goes through is cloth, like a piece of line, or similar to a skinny shoelace. Sometimes those break on impact and the container comes open. But in those days the pack closures were metal cones with a hole drilled through them, and the ripcord pins went through those. So metal on metal closures, plus the fact that there are 3 or 4 pins on the backpack, very unlikely for it to open on impact.

I don't mean to be an argumentative jerk, but this is my wheelhouse, where I try to be informative. Unfortunately, I've had far too much experience with exactly this scenario. While there are varying degrees of resulting damage, never, not once, have I seen nor heard of a terminal impact resulting in total unrecognizable obliteration, where there is 'just not much left to find'. You have not shared what you know, and I am genuinely interested in what you have experienced that makes you think otherwise. ------- As for animals, I don't have a hunting background so I can't speak as authoritatively, but it's my understanding that with a larger corpse such as an adult human, animals don't rip it apart and carry it off, they feed on it where it lays, which would still leave recognizable remains, particularly skeletal. As well as the clothing and the rig.

I agree with Robert on this. It's not the grace, or lack thereof, of his exit. It's the sudden removal of his weight from the stairs.

Many skydivers just wear regular clothes, some even jump naked. Jumpsuits are just cloth, they're designed for flying aerodynamics, not gak retention. Again, what is your experience in the matter?

With respect... Exactly how can you assure me that what I described is not usual, and is far less likely than a much worse state. How many skydiving bounces have you seen? I have been studying parachuting fatalities like my life depended on it for over forty years. I've been teaching people about parachuting fatalities like their life depended on it for over thirty of those years. I guarantee you I've seen more dead skydivers than everyone else on this thread combined.

Balderdash. A body does not just explode into obliteration like a water balloon on impact. It's more like a sack full of steaks, sausages and bones. Sure, stuff breaks, cracks, splits, leaks, and what-not. But the body as a whole usually remains pretty much intact. Even on hard-as-concrete sun baked desert dirt. If Cooper went in, it might be grim and gory, but he would be laying there easily recognizable as a body, still in the rig and his clothes.

A few days ago I came across an old episode of 'Mission Impossible' (the TV show) from '72. The bad guy's name was Cooper. At one point he mailed a letter, and it appeared to have Flyjack's stamp on it.

Hmmm... This could be an interesting ploy. Lawsuits are expensive to defend regardless of the outcome. If they send back an unairworthy rig and someone jumps it and goes in, they could be sued. If you threaten to sue them for not returning your property, maybe they'll offer you a new rig as a cheap (insurance) way out. I've got an old Vector in the closet, I think I'll send it to them...

(I know this isn't that thread but I couldn't resist.)

But do you have a Corvette?

That last document you posted, where Lyle Jr. talks about Sr., what is that from?

arch

What happened with Shutter's forum?

There is so much that is odd, conflicting, or doesn't make sense about obtaining the chutes. It's my understanding that the FBI didn't tell anybody what they were for, is that right? So the FBI asks, and people just hand them over, no questions asked? If they knew there was a hostage situation and they're trying to keep a criminal from blowing people up, I can see them cooperating, but otherwise? The flight service guy that gets Hayden's rigs, he's aviation oriented, you'd think that he'd know enough to say that those chutes are for emergencies and not really suitable for intentional jumps. And the chutes form the dropzone. Who did they talk to? Did they call Cossey? Did they call the dropzone? Emrick makes the comment about looking for older ones - if they called the dz and Emrick answered, he owns the place and knows his gear, he wouldn't necessarily need to call Cossey. Cossey mentions a skydiver staying at the loft - does that guy answer the phone, then call Cossey asking what to do? Whether he's mistaken or lying, Cossey's first description sounds like they sent a sport rig (with D-rings) and a good reserve, and a bailout rig (no D-rings) and a dummy reserve. If Cossey knows what's going on, is that his way of discouraging the hijacker from making Tina jump? But Cossey doesn't know, right? If I'm Emrick and I answer the phone and they're asking for chutes, I'm going to ask what they're for. People should know what they're doing with these things. And my thought would be to send student gear. It's nobody's personal rigs, and in that era they'd be basic military surplus gear, and the easiest to replace? And if they tell Emrick that they have back ones and just need front ones, isn't he going to ask about that? He would know that front ones aren't compatible with bailout rigs. Does he just keep his mouth shut about that so as not to volunteer two more of his rigs? And it says that Cooper had already opened the good reserve before Tina brought in the last parachute. Was that last one the dummy reserve? You'd think that if he had them both there, he'd open the dummy and get the lines out of that. But if he opened the good one before seeing the dummy, that may have pissed him off and be what prompted him to pitch that one out, out of frustration. And the FBI relying on Cossey's descriptions after the fact - even if Cossey was honestly mistaken, the FBI would know which ones they gave. Every time Cossey starts to describe his gear, you'd think they'd say no, we gave Cooper the Hayden bailout rigs, describe those (knowing Cossey packed them)? ???????

If he coiled several loops for each tie point it might likely have held. Especially with bailout rigs, which are rigger-packed reserve type gear, parachute malfunctions are rare, and even among malfunctions it would be rare to have a complete pack closure total or a completely uninflated streamer. Most malfunctions are 'partial', where they mostly deploy but get knotted up somehow during inflation, which results in a canopy that is partially or mostly inflated, and he would be significantly slowed down. In those days the reserve procedures usually did not involve releasing the main canopy, and with the bailout rigs you can not release them. So feeding a reserve out during a partial malfunction would not involve a full terminal opening shock, it would just inflate smoothly and add drag to whatever was already there. Also, he likely could have attached the reserve clips to the leg strap hardware. That would hang the reserve lower which would be an awkward point to be hanging from, but it would make more room to tie the money bag above it.

To specify, I think that setup only applies to front pack bailout rigs. As always I could be wrong, but I don't think there are any back chute bailout rigs that do not have integrated harnesses. The crewman would not be able to attach that by himself. Actually he would have. One, the dropzone would have a few for their pilots and people taking observer rides, and Cossey may refer to them as 'his' because he runs the loft and does the rigging on them. Second, I think he would have one of his own. When an instructor puts out static line students, he does not jump with them. Especially if he has another load waiting, it's more efficient for him to just ride down with the airplane. If he's wearing a full rig with main and front reserve, it's big, cumbersome, and in the way. It's easier to just wear a smaller, sleeker, lighter bailout rig with no front reserve, and that was a common practice. It is unlikely that the dropzone would have any of those independent harness with front pack bailout systems. That was a military aircrew item, and not prevalent in the civilian sport arena, either jumpers or aerobatic pilots. The front reserves they would have would be for reserves on freefall rigs with mains.

If you've seen the movie Ford vs Ferrari, the plane that Matt Damon as Carroll Shelby does that buzz job in is a Twin Beech. That airplane is owned by the same guy that owned the DC-3 that was in the James Bond movie Quantum of Solace. In years past, both of those planes were regular jump planes at Elsinore and Perris. I've got God knows how many jumps out of them. Here they are buzzing Elsinore. Ain't nuthin' like a radial...

Intentional jumps, therefore mains and reserves. ------- The standard has always been that main chute ripcords were on the right, to be pulled with the right hand. Front reserves, the ripcord was usually on the right side as well, but some had the ripcord on the top, the idea being that you could get at it with either hand. Bailout rigs, the ripcord has always been on the left side, you could do a normal type pull with the left hand or a cross-pull with the right hand. On piggyback gear (main and reserve both on the back), main ripcord on the right, reserve ripcord on the left. Something interesting with the picture below: You can see that some of them have the normal type ripcord handle on the right, while some of them have that kind of knobby looking handle coming over the left shoulder. That is also the main ripcord. That handle was known as a 'blast handle'. I remember seeing some of those, but on the right in the normal position. Those handles were a problem. They clipped onto the end of the ripcord housing. If you pulled it kind of off to the side and not directly off of the housing, they sometimes didn't want to come off the housing, and several people struggled with them until impact. My guess is that these here were mounted on the left and a right-handed cross-pull would get them more straightly off of the housing. They were eventually banned.

This is interesting thought, and would depend on Cooper's experience with parachutes. If he had sport or paratroop experience, I would think that he would want a main, because they have forward drive and controllability, giving him better control of a landing area. But if he was a crewman and more familiar with bailout rigs, he might see them as having more assured opening reliability, being rigger-packed reserves.

Did any of the front bailout rigs you found have integrated harnesses, permanently attached to the container, or were they all independent harnesses to which one would attach the separate container, like CooperNWO305 and I have described?

Parachutes are pretty basic, and especially in those days when they were all round canopies, they were all fairly similar. So anyone who was familiar with any type should easily be able to figure out any of them. Back chute harnesses are all about the same, so if you know how to put one on then you do. A few of them had slightly different chest strap attachments, but nothing that should befuddle anyone. Anyone making an intentional jump, sport or paratrooper, would have a back main with D-rings for a front reserve. A military pilot or crewman, or a sport aerobatic flyer (such as Hayden) does not intend to jump, so the back bailout rig they would use is a reserve, so they don't have D-rings. A sport jumper at somewhere like Elsinore would not use a bailout rig, but they would see them being worn by either the pilots or people just taking observer rides (and landing with the airplane). It sounds to me like he was asking for two rigs, mains and reserves. However, Flyjack presents other possibilities...