rynodigsmusic

I am by no means certain there is no "god". What I'm profoundly confident in is the incredible odds against any of the human religions being correct. Please go back and read the text of the attachment in the original post and then tell me again that I'm ignorant to find it *highly* unlikely.Quote No need. That would be like me showing a picture of someone you dearly love slaughtered and then mocking them...one look at that is enough for me. The funny thing is, he did that for you also. Coincedentally though, since you dont really deny the existance of God...If for some reason his spirit would manifest into something we can relate to, what would you expect his message to be? And if that message was love one another with pure love, how would it be greater expressed? "We didn't start the fire"

What will you do if he really is the atonement for your sin? Would you feel any shame then? Or would you remain heartless? I cant believe you are so certain there is no God that you would actually mock his greatest expression of grace...wow, talk about ignorance. "We didn't start the fire"

You still didn't answer the question. Ok, let's add it to the list of questions you cannot answer, and move on. >>>>Yes of course youre right. What Jesus did was reveal that we are all guilty of sin (by dying on the cross), right on down to Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Moses, John the Baptist, ect...ALL of us. Christianity is not about being sin free, but finding the Joy in desiring righteousness. Before Christ, there was alot of hypocrites judging and condemning those who did not practice your forementioned examples. There are still hypocrites in the church doing the same thing. Salvation is about GRACE and understanding that we are loved regardless of the things we have done. If a man receives that love, he no longer desires to sin and instead desires to grow closer to that love. There are many hypocrites inside the church I am ashamed to say. I put alot of effort there as well. Know what? Each of them says those things; >>>>We are animals, but our minds make us capable of reason, and our minds can be satisfied through that reason. We have the ability to recieve an incredible feeling of goodness through the power of those minds and also the ability to receive an overwhelming feeling of death to where, we can, just take our own lives. We are far superior to animals in so many ways, when we are doing good. There is a sacredness in sex. We dont just do it for reproduction do we? If there are other purposes for it, say pleasure, then isnt it possible that there are other purposes for it...like expressing a love that is pure. Desiring to satisfy another instead of just ourselves? If I try to satisfy her and she tries to satisfy me, then that makes sex quite a bit more unique than animals, and since it can be a "gift" that makes it sacred, as a gift is generally given through the heart. I didn't have vodka, was too young for this, and it wasn't even party - my lady didn't want us to be seen together since I was still a high school student and she was married. There was no passion at all, it was just fun for both of us with mutual benefits. Was a pretty typical story at that time (late 80'). You could only see its beauty when your basic needs are satisfied. If you're suffering, it's very hard for you to enjoy sunset. >>>>I lived in Africa for awhile. Tribal Africans, without the political dissent, were quite happy. And most of them were VERY spiritual. But I agree it is a great gift to have your basic needs cared for. Remember that the Apostles began their ministrys dirt poor. Paul himself went through a vast array of suffering and persecution, to inclued hunger. I have worked much harder, been in prison more frequently, been flogged more severely, and been exposed to death again and again. 24Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one. 25Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was stoned, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea, 26I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my own countrymen, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false brothers. 27I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked 2 Corinthians 11 This is only some of Pauls sufferings for preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Do you think he was trying to take your money???? Or to send us the greatest message of all time, the power of which, is still testified about to this day. "We didn't start the fire"

Now when you have done your completely irrelevant monologue, could I repeat my question, and ask you again how'd you comment the horrible death of those kids in China if your loving God so cared about them? >>>>You should probably meditate on the word Blame. Learn what it is, and why there is no good in its applications...you seem to be full of it and I promise you will not find peace with blame in your heart. Dude, that's exactly what you have been TOLD! >>>>Of course you are right, happiness is inside. I was not testifying against others, I was only telling you that I have never been happier. I know that sin invites discontent, because it relys on a constant lust for more. How do can you satisfy a lust? Rather, the real satisfaction comes through peace and freedom from that lust. There is a whole other life on the other side of this lust, one that far exceeds the pleasures of lust. Peace is incredible to say the least. Again. I do not for one second deny that science can understand what is going on in my brain and the emotions studied in nueroscience, but what it cant explain is the connection So when I have sex with condom with a nice lady, then my condom shares the connection with her? Or with me? Or with both of us? Does the factory which made the condom participate in this connection? Does the hotel we got a room in? Your "connection" chain very quickly gets as big and therefore useless as a LinkedIn network. You most likely have never been there in your whole life. I could tell you from personal experience that when you're going to sleep hungry because there is nothing to eat for dinner, the last thing you notice is how beautyful sunset is. >>>>Yes you are right. Life is not without suffering. But, it is still beautiful. Im sorry if you think I compared myself to you, and Im sorry that you had to go through that. "We didn't start the fire"

I think our society influences us. Movies, Music, Video games, ect... Whether or not it is influencing in a good way or a bad way relflects the direction of our commuinities. For us to take back the good in our generation, we have to confront the trash that the generations before us left. Unfortunately, it seems this is the very problem of every generation. What is clear is that we are being exploited for money, power, and fame. Ultimately, I believe what Jesus said, that the world is under the control of the prince of darkness. "We didn't start the fire"

It cannot because you (intentionally?) mix incompatible things. Encyclopedia explains what the love is. It doesn't explain how you love your children or your Jesus. Sure, 70 thousand people in China can already confirm that. Probably they were all sinners. >>>>Have you not read anything I have written?? The bible says that salvation is only found through Christ, but not that only Christians will be saved. God is finished punishing on earth. He punished sin through Jesus and prophesied the end as something that must happen. Nothing will stop this, the end of all things will come, and the bible tells us that "the earth will become desolate because of its ihabitants". When? Could be tomorrow, could be even 1000yrs from now, but, it is important to understand that God is no longer punishing sin...That has already been done and the earth is in the beginning of its birth pains. Sin is condemned already and those who continue to sin without remorse are storing up wrath within themselves. I had to learn the hard way that sin is death, but through that I found life through grace. Think of a pregnant woman, she is just waiting now for the baby to be born. Those who repent and become born again through the spirit of grace will be saved, those who dont are already subject to judgement and will follow the fate of the world which is perishing. This is the message of the Gospel. Jesus came to save, and to condemn sin to death. I can testify to the death in sin and the life in grace, as can many many others. I'm sure you think so. As I said before, every religion based on the Bible teaches that they are the only one who interprets the Bible correctly, and everyone else is "misunderstanding", "ignoring" or "not seeing the Truth". What for? I don't want to start a theological debate, it doesn't make any sense. As I said before, there is a lot of interpretations for almost everything in the Bible, and there is no way person A could prove that their interpretation is correct, and the interpretation B is not. Thus I prefer not to discuss the Bible quotes, and concentrate on more important things, like the existense of the God itself. >>>>So, I am assuming you dont know? I will tell you that a Pharisee as defined by Jesus is a Hypocrite. Basically what really happened, you were TOLD that you were slave to sin, and before this had no idea about it. And you were TOLD that if you do this, this and that, your heart will open, Jesus/Krishna/Odin will come to it and will make you feel better. Nothing, however, really changed. You're no different from a poor man who was hypnotized to think he became rich after reading the Bible. He would come here and write how reading the Bible made him rich. Would be he lying? No; he believes in it. However, does it make things true? No, it does not. I offer you to accept the love of my microwave. I have accepted it, and my mind has been freed, my life improved, I became rich, married a beautyful girl and has gorgeous kids. I know the truth now, and my truth is more truthworthy than your truth, and in fact it's the only truth in this world. I'm now saved, and will go to Heaven, and I want you to go to Heaven as well. All you have to do is open your heart and accept the love of my microwave. As soon as you believes my microwave loves you and frees you you'll feel the love, and feel the freedom - I promise - or your money back. >>>>I know you are upset with many factions of Christianity, I am as well. But, that doesnt mean that there are not true practicers and followers of Christ. I pray that you meet one so that you can see the true fruit of the spirit. No, it does not. Basically everything you feel is a chemical reaction in your brain, so it doesn't go anywhere deeper. Read this for start. I apologize it's basically layman level, but I only run a quick search. Did you know those things are studied? >>>>Again. I do not for one second deny that science can understand what is going on in my brain and the emotions studied in nueroscience, but what it cant explain is the connection. What is beautiful? Surely you know if you see the ocean at sunset and it is beautiful to you, then you (with all your fluids and exciting wonderous emotions and neurokinetic energy) AND the ocean share a connection. I know that connection is a loving God. do you not understand that you are connected with the universe, not independant, but actually connected?? What is that connection? And why is it so beautiful even in the midst of the terror and tragedy in this world? The connection when it is made is good, and goods greatest expression is love. If God had presented himself without love, I would have been very dissapointed and skeptical, however, he came with the love of a freind willing to die for us, and who did in fact, do so. After recieving that love in your heart, you are free to love forever and that love changes your entire perception of the earth and the world around you. It brings heaven to you. Just as Jesus said, "the kingdom of Heaven is near" The truth is that you can tell someone how to love, give them pleasure through indulgences, you can inspire them to love, ect...but you cannot make them believe. If someone believes in love and does not doubt, it will get stronger. Believing in somehting unseen without doubt is faith. It takes faith to sustain love. Within us, it takes a key to unlock our love. There is a love greater than your love for your family and even greater than your love for yourself, that is what we all seek with or without knowing it. Eternal love. I am afraid this only comes by faith and im sorry, but it has nothing to do with your microwave or national geographic. I asked the question how I know I love. It disturbed me for quite some time. The answer I found is Trust. "We didn't start the fire"

You mean the Pope? Humans have been using religion to manipulate people since the old times. Yes, of course. You might be surprised, but most people who're duscussing with Christians on Internet forums have read the Bible, and usually know much more about it than most Christians themselves. I don't understand you. You can't believe that a microwave - a real thing you personally could see and touch - could express the love of the creator. But somehow you have no problems to believe in some mythical Jesus expressing the love - and you personally have never seen or touched him, just read about him in the book full of "misunderstandings" and contradictions. That's because you need to open your heart and accept it. Truth is always difficult to accept, you need to believe in what I said. Like my microwave, my kids are real, so it's easy to see just by checking my attitude to them. Your case, however, is different - you seem to love something you have never seen, and have no idea whether it exist or not. >>>>Believe it or not, thats actually a pretty good answer (without the microwave thing). But, I believe if you thought about it for awhile, you may realize that your love for them goes deeper than just your attitude towards them. PS. I still waiting for the previous reply. >>>>which one? "We didn't start the fire"

The problem in your quote is that before it happens, the following things must be proven: 1. "That" exist; 2. "That" created us; 3. "That" loves us; >>>>I dont believe in oppression, but I do believe that you should teach your children what is best so that they will at least have a foundation of a conscience. There is much you dont understand about the Gospel. Your logic is flawed. If you're saying the kid must believe that he will receive any love BEFORE he actually receives anything, you could say the same about evething around you. For example, you could say the kid must believe your microwave loves him - and it will work for them, since the prerequisite is that they believe in it. It does not mean, however, than the microwave could actually love anyone. You could say exactly the same about your microwave. In fact, it has a great advantage comparing to made-up Jesus - you do not have to prove the kids that your microwave exist. Could you show them your Jesus? >>>>Goodness sakes. I wouldn't blame the world. The kids might consider it strange that your Jesus, who allegedly loves them so much, just let the kids in China to die in horrible death under collapsed childcare and school buildings. >>>>God hates sin. Sin is what he judged, sin is what he condemned. Sin is what keeps us seperated and enslaved. Sin is death and it is living within us, but just as death lives within us, through recieving grace, life also lives within. Sin is also what reveals grace to our hearts, without sin we would not have found his love. Right now, you think God is against you,and that you are against him, but if you knew what grace was, you would see something entirely different. One must confront himself with truth when seeking it, like an addict in denial....there is another life on the other side of denial. Coincidentally, I would be very interested to hear what your sign of great love is? "We didn't start the fire"

Will it be too much to ask you to address my actual response, and not my humbleness and seeings? I'd especially like to see your comments about the God who loves us, and how different is his love comparing to Osama Bin Laden (maybe he also loves us in the same way as your God?) Definitely! Faith gives a lot of power to the shepperd, who could now easy manipulate his herd. >>>>Yes, he manipulates us into a path of righteousness and love, and peace which surpasses all understanding. You, like MANY do not understand the difference between the spirit and religion, Between freedom and slavery. But this is no suprise, this was the same problem in Jesus' time. Have you even read a Gospel? This is just crap. I could 100% beleive that the power is in my microwave, and that is the absolute best way to recieve it - even though I do not have any evidence for this. But it doesn't affect anyone else. I understand you perfectly. You are saying that what you believe is right because you believe in it, no evidence needed. And we need just to believe in what you believe, and we won't need any evidence either. This, however, doesn't make it right. The obvious example is translating your beliefs to microwave. My microwave is even better than Jesus - I could show it to anyone, and they could see it's here and it's real. Thus I could say that believing in love from my microwave made me and five million people happy, therefore is a right thing to do, and you should just accept love from my microwave, and open your heart to it. So believing in "Jesus loves you" is no different than believing in "my microwave loves you", and the evidence available actually favors microwave. >>>>Im sorry, but I dont believe you understood anything I have said. Aparently you have kids? Do you love them? How do you know? "We didn't start the fire"

I dont believe you have learned humbleness just yet. You have yet to see that life is a gift. Unfortunately, you dont understand that faith gives power. Faith is about belief, belief is where the power is, it is the only way to recieve the love of God and it is the absolute best way to recieve it. I just cant explain this to you in a way that you would understand. I am sorry for that.... if you only knew what is being said... "We didn't start the fire"

I have never seen any church or religion which would encourage actual learning about Jesus. They only encourage remembering and frequently repeating their own teaching about Jesus, in most cases not even mentioning there are 100+ other teachings about Jesus, none of which could be proven to be true. I dont think it is a bad thing to understand that we are dearly loved by that which created us. The truth is, that in order to recieve any kind of love, it must be believed. Jesus gives us not only a reason, but a depth of that love. The depth in love leaves you hungry. The deeper you go, the hungrier you get, fully satisfied and hungry at the same time. Love reveals its depth as literally limitless. Love by nature desires to share and be shared. The reason the world is so hard is because it doesnt know how much it is loved. Why? Because it cant recieve something it doesnt believe. Love devours those who do not believe in it, and it ignites those who do. If/when you ever receieve this love, then you will know what sharing it is about and the true motive behind it. "We didn't start the fire"

Quotei used to work with someone who was very racist. he wanted to kill all minorities, gays, jews, muslims, and everyone else who wasn't a southern white redneck. this guy was filled with so much hate that i often wondered what would happen and he woke up one morning and his personal utopia had been realized. would he then get more and more picky about who he wanted eradicated? hate like that doesn't just disappear.Quote Hmm..."They" say that discrimitation and hate like this is born from ignorance. Since we know ignorance can affect us all, then we must accept that discrimination and hate can affect us as well. There is such a thing as feeding these emotions. We know that emotions are the expression of thoughts in the mind, so, the question is, what is feeding these thoughts? I believe it is influence and inspiration and that we can all be used. If that is the case, then the hatred will live wherever it is fed. Soon man may realize that there is something greater than us. I believe there is a balance within our existance, that we have the knowledge of good and evil, some desire the knowledge of one over the other, but the desire is the greatest question. I dont believe that a mans desire dies after death. I believe it goes where it desires to go and where it desired to be while it was in the host of the mind. Our mind dies, our body dies, but our spirit can inspire long after death through those still living who are keeping it alive. But thats just what I believe. "We didn't start the fire"

The difference you still aren't grasping is that scientists try to disprove their hypotheses. They subject them to testing designed specifically to find flaws. Religion and faith don't do that. Exactly. That's really all you have to say to disprove this bogus "parallel" between science and religion. I dont really understand why it is so difficult to understand the spiritual aspect of a relationship with a man and his surroundings, that is, there is something good, not just true, but true and good. Or, why scientists don’t believe a mans conviction is stronger becasue he truly believes in something. I was explaining, that faith has other applications that have been and are still used by humans to this day to accomplish what was believed to not have been possible, whether it is or isnt. Its not about what is possible or impossible, it is about a mans conviction to continue because he believes it is possible. It was stated that a belief in something you know you will find is called a quest, heaven forbid we call it faith. To me, a quest is about the search, faith is about finding. Scientist believe they have found, (many of them don’t admit that) now they are trying to disprove (according to our conversation), that is why I say they are acting in faith, or did I miss something? Oh wait, they already disproved the existence of God right? Find a man who says with absolute certainty that he does not believe in even the possibility of the existence of God and I will show you the most ignorant of men, blind to the miracle of life and love. I play guitar with people who are very technical, extremely good players, but, I would rather have a player who plays from his heart than all the best techincal players in the world. There is something very powerful deep within us, something so deep and so great that even science cannot explain it. When that connection is made, you know there is something greater than what is seen and touched. Do I want to bridge the gap? I could care less, because just knowing and hearing is not enough, when you go deeper, its all about the heart, and that has been fascinating science since the beginning. Sure science is fun and exciting at times, but if you want true fascination, you have to go much deeper. I just cant wait for science to bottle up and sell life, then maybe I can bring back my loved ones! Do you not see how ridiculous that sounds?? Or maybe I can find some life on ebay?? Come to think of it, im a little short on love this week, I think ill add some of that to the cart as well. "We didn't start the fire"

"What about the undescovered tribe in Wireityeenska? If they haven't been discovered by a missionary, are they going to hell even though they've never heard of him?"Quote The Gospel says that salvation is found through Christ, but not that only Christians will be saved. God knows the hearts of men. Salvation is about recieving grace. We leave this world with the heart we had. A heart for the world and the things in it will lose what it found, but a heart for the spirit and the things in that will last forever. There is sooooo much to say about this.... Imagine that there is this absolute greatest gift ever, greater than your family and even your own life...the most sought after gift in all existance, all we have to do is recieve it. If it is in front of us and we dont take it, but rather complain that it wasnt "shown" to others, then we literally have no excuse do we? What makes more sense is to take the gift first and just be appreciative that it was offered to you. Believe it or not, the gift will be offered to everyone, even those who are already gone. You should read a Gospel. "We didn't start the fire"

Either way, for you to give them whats best, your going to have to help develop thier consciences. I dont believe that learning about Jesus is ever a bad thing, no matter where the setting, but it is never good to use oppression. I like downwards view...encouragement without pressure. If having a relationship with God has taught me anything, it is that he is the teacher. You feel a connection with nature becasue you are naturally connected, you will find incredible revelations in your heart there for sure, but the greatest connection is definitely a relationship with God. If you see beauty in his creation, then you see beauty in his heart, if you see beauty in his heart, then you will come closer to understanding just how beautiful you are to him. If you truly want to know the answer to your question, you would read a Gospel with a heart to understand it as one being taught. Im assuming you may not have read it? "We didn't start the fire"

This is the best thread ever! I share tears with you all on many of the songs you mention. The other day I heard "When you say nothing at all" Rownan Keatings version. God revealed he was singing that to us...it was powerful. "We didn't start the fire"

You come off a bit condescending at times and you really dont seem to attempt to understand anything outside of your own understanding. If you did, you would have at least understood something about the spiritual perception that is given through understanding the Gospel. You know a great deal about evolution, nothing about Jesus, but yet you continue to claim that you do. You will be challenged for the rest of your life by those who know him because of this, its not just me. This should be evidence to you that you really need to re-evaluate what it means when you tell people you know the Gospel. Just because someone reads the letters doesnt mean they know the heart of the one who writes them. In any event, this type of conversation is the type that I like and I enjoyed it, so, thank you. "We didn't start the fire"

My bad, I thought we had settled that. It isn't. Why not, because it so easily refutes your erroneous claim? It is an excellent example of a belief not based on faith that is stronger than faith based beliefs. >>>>I think its quite obvious, and to be honest, Im a little tired of explaining this. It is simple, you dont believe in the power of faith. Neuroscientists may well be able to observe it. The average person is limited to feeling it. Oh, nevermind. Scratch what I said about it being observable. With your restrictions, no, it is unlikely to be observable. >>>>good one, so Im assuming you cant explain the connection??? We were talking about belief based on faith versus belief based on anything else, of which belief based on understanding is a subset. I don't think we will ever find all the answers. The more we know the more questions we are able to ask. Even if/when we to discover the UFT/TOE, the number of problems it could be applied to is virtually infinite, so we still couldn't obtain all the answers. >>>>Ok. So what is it called? The difference you still aren't grasping is that scientists try to disprove their hypotheses. They subject them to testing designed specifically to find flaws. >>>>You may be suprised. Our perceptions are almost totally different as is evidence in this conversation. Of course you believe mine is baseless and ridiculous, but our thought process is just so different. The questions you ask, are not the questions I ask. Remember, its all based on individualism...how important is the answer??? You believe faith is zero evidence and I believe it is all the evidence I need. This is a very radical difference in perception. Some people ask why, how, ect..., some people just accept. It is about the individuals' desires and what they want out of life. That's because you still don't understand science well enough to realize it is faithless by design. I don't believe there is any correlation between morality and religious faith. >>>>I believe I know that about you. It is even more evidence that you dont really know the teachings of Jesus that well. Or, you simply believe that what he taught is not moral...probably because it may not be as liberal as you would like? Although, I can testify that I have never been more free. I never cared enough to consider it. And that would still be nonsensically incorrect. >>>>I disagree. Some things just feel right to me, I believe in a conscience, and I also believe it is quite powerful. To quote Fritjof Capra, "The map is not the territory." How so? >>>>Look at your intent for that answer. It just feels like your running up hill. Huh? One more time, in English, please. What isn't rational about them? I offered realistic examples of situations for each rule in which obeying the rule does not achieve the desired effect. You're trying to observe the rule from the perspective of one who has faith that the golden rule is absolutely correct. I'm trying to observe the rule like a scientist testing a hypothesis, trying to find scenarios that can disprove its accuracy. Having shared such scenarios with you, you are now trying to justify why the scenarios should be ignored so you don't have to adjust your faith in the golden rule as being absolutely correct, while I simply accept that the golden rule is not absolutely correct, because it makes the assumption that everyone desires the same things. >>>>But, I have already explained that I also know as truth that not everyone will believe in that rule. I dont have to adjust my faith in the rule to understand that. Jesus is clear about this world being evil, he is clear about us all being sinners. He gave us a path of perfect righteousness...it is a path of perfection so that it can be followed, but not attained until death. The level of joy it brings here gives us hope that when we are with Jesus, the joy level will be on a level not even close to being understood here. There is nothing wrong with the rule, it is us with the problem. That includes me. Righteousness is about life to the fullest, the qualites of its fruit are the most sought after in the human existance. Peace, Joy, Love, Content, Goodness, Kindness, Patience, Humbleness... Do unto others … is an active rule. It requires a conscious action on the part of the follower. Do not do unto others … is passive. The follower is not required to do anything, only to avoid doing things they themselves would find undesirable. While they do indeed appear similar, they are actually very different. >>>>depending on the circumstances. Again, I think we should start a thread on this so that you can hear other opinions than my own. Something to understand as well is that Jesus was talking to those who listen to truth. It is a rule for those who desire righteousness, not a universal truth, but a universal truth for those who desire righteousness. "We didn't start the fire"

All faith is based on belief. Not all belief is based on faith. It is a similar relationship to that between squares and rectangles. All squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares. >>>>Agreed. But the conversation was about whether or not belief was stronger because of faith. I believe the belief can come before understanding and that that is a fundamental aspect of the human search for wisdom. Sometimes a guess is enough, whether it is educated or not, to gain understanding. Tell us, what exactly did Jesus say about the scientific method or about the earth revolving around the sun? If he didn't address either of these two issues, why are you bringing him up? No, it was based on evidence and observed phenomena. >>>>I believe there is an idea or imaginative flow of thoughts after the observed pheonmena. I believe that when someone is in love that they are full of life. Is love an observed phenomena? Not the emotions or what happens within the brain, but the connection itself? Sure it was. It was a valid example of belief based on understanding, and not faith. No, the evidence is not gathered with intent to support the hypothesis. Evidence is gathered with intent to test the hypothesis. >>>>Whoops. either way, its gathered against an unproven theory that is sincerely believed in until there is evidence to disprove it. This sincere belief can go on until death, showing that what was found or not found, whether it is true or not, was persevered by and progressed by a sincere belief in the theory. Yes we do. I recognize the fact that faith is useless when seeking answers to explain the world and universe around us or other topics better left to science, such as the origin of of life. More specifically, science is about finding answers in such a manner that different people in different places will obtain the same answer, every time, without any need for faith. >>>>To eliminate faith, or to eliminate faith in God? It seems you are convinced that the morality of a believer may be substandard to those who do not believe. What you dont seem to understand is that even if science finds all the answers, I will still love Jesus as the spirit of God and I will continue to share his love with everyone. One thing I have noticed about love, is that it must be believed to be recieved. In any event, the spirit cannot be eliminated by getting rid of believers, it is a deep search that has very little to do with answers and more to do with hope and love. That's significantly different from saying "truth is a feeling." If I have an idea, I can express that idea in text, but that text is not the idea. Even the Golden Rule has its problems. I once new a female with a fantasy of being raped and murdered. I certainly hope she does not practice the Golden Rule. She would be a serial killer, probably dubbed black widow or something similar by the press. Or, perhaps well meaning Christians, following the Golden Rule, start talking about Jesus and Christianity with everyone they meet. This may be what they would like to have done unto themselves, but it results in annoying (or worse) a large portion of those with whom they start such conversations. >>>>I would rather them act like Jesus personally. Personally, I prefer Do not do unto others what you would not want them to do unto you. But while its passive approach reduces the potential for problems, it does not eliminate the potential. What if a shy introvert notices a great accomplishment of an extravert that feeds off of attention. The introvert would not want a big deal made of the accomplishment if it was his own, yet the extrovert might feel slighted if the accomplishment is not acknowledged. In the end, I think Richard Bachman offered the most realistic rule. [I]Do unto others as you want to do unto others. >>>>This sounds like a slippery slope to me. The point was whether or not it is connected as true in what is truth, not whether or not people use it. Jesus did not say that all follow or even listen to truth. The examples you gave against the golden rule might be better discussed on an individual thread. They just dont seem rational to me. Dont, dont sounds the same as do, do, of course depending on the circumstances, and unto others thing seems a bit egocentric and narscissistic. But again, maybe a new thread on that would be an interesting conversation. "We didn't start the fire"

How about asking a yes or no question if you want a yes or no answer. >>>>Do you think faith is about belief and not doubt? Probably. >>>>I respect your views and would sincerely like for you to explain the differece between faith and belief, and how they dont have anything to do with one another. I believe there is such a thing as conviction when it comes to belief, and that it is an inspiring influence. You're wrong about the belief being weak due to not relying on faith. You're right about it being from understanding rather than faith. Rarely will a hypothesis ever be proven true. Science proves very few things. One of the defining characteristics of a scientific hypothesis is that it is disprovable. If you want proof, study mathematics. >>>>Of course, so you agree that evidence is found after the hypothesis is set as well? Both the evidence gathered to form the hypothesis and the evidence gathered to support it is gathered against an unproven threory. Yet, scientists still proceed, progress, and persevere in it. No. >>>>Do you believe it can be? This may be another primary difference in our perceptions. I believe it can. I think there is something within us that connects us to truth, and that it may express itself through a feeling, of course, depending on the individual. For example, most people like the "do unto others as you would have them do unto you"... "We didn't start the fire"

You created an arbitrary difference . >>>>How about answering with a yes or no instead. Only because you refuse to see. There's nothing like a good contradiction. Or are you just claiming my belief that the sun will rise in the morning a weak belief? >>>>What are you saying? If you had no faith that it would rise, your belief would be weak, whether is rises or not. However, through understanding, you know it will (provided nothing supernatural or indescribable happens) This is not a very good example. The truth is that if someone believes, truly believes (has faith) in something, it will inspire him to progress and persevere even in the face of failure and persecution. If they dont truly believe, their belief is weak. This is proven as true throughout history. No, that's how religious faith works. >>>>Of course your right. The hypothesis is educated, but evidence is found along the way after the hypothesis was set. That is the point. Sometimes whether a guess is educated or not, the hypothesis is made merely as a foundation to collect more evidence to prove it. The crime scene detective would, form a hypothesis, which is educated based on the evidence, then seek to prove it. Again, the evidence comes first. The hypothesis is then formed to rationally explain the evidence. That's not similar at all. That would make as much sense as claiming that a career in law is just like a skateboard. The two have nothing to do with each other. >>>>I disagree. I think metaphors and parables can be and have been used to explian things throughout the search for wisdom. Yes, I'm funny that way. A vague emotion isn't evidence of anything, except maybe a vague emotion. It's easy. Cosmologists aren't lacking evidence to support their hypotheses. They just are not in denial about there being unanswered questions thus far in science. >>>>How do you not see that you are operating in faith? You believe these questions will be answered and that is why you are progressing, persevering, and even outright denying even the slightest possiblity that something other than your theoretical explanation could be responsible for those "unanswered questions". Life is a miracle, it seems to be the most prevolent yet evasive force to us. It shows wisdom and many other qualities that represent it as more than possible that a perfect creator is responsible for its existence, no matter where it is found. Anyways, I would not want to live forever in a world run by man. Do you need evidence of a belief? >>>>No. It doesn’t appear so. A feeling is an expression of a belief, but is not required to believe. The real question should be do you think that something you believe is true is enough to allow a belief to take root? That is, "Is truth a feeling"? "We didn't start the fire"

What you seem to not understand is that in the example you provided, what was believed to be impossible was, in fact, possible (i.e. it was not known to be impossible). Twist it however you like, but that is the unavoidable fact of your example. There you go again, assigning qualitative characteristics when you have no facts with which to back up your argument. Please, give us a concrete example of how "faith manifests itself through reality." >>>>The good works of Mother Teresa. Once again, you are failing to grasp the difference between understanding something is possible but not knowing how to do it, and taking something on faith. And now you create your own definition of evidence. >>>>I dont know how you can say that and this at the same time...."Just because cosmologists don't know with any certainty about critical points in the universe's past or future".... >>>>Feelings are not credible evidence of belief? What do you think love is? Let me get this straight. You are claiming I'm not capable of reason? Okay, sure, whatever.Quote >>>>Outside of your own understanding it seems, yes. "We didn't start the fire"

What an arbitrary distinction you provide. One person's doubt is another person's belief. I can see why, since no one claimed that except you. No, they merely have to acknowledge that it won't require violation of natural laws and figure out how to do it. That's not to say it will be easy, but it doesn't require the faith you refer to. It is true to the extent that it is just as probable that the Flying Spaghetti Monster is the Supreme Being as it is probable that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And, due to lack of historical evidence to support such claims of Jesus' existence and feats, it must be taken on faith. You're doing a poor job of showing me. I don't buy your claim. Perhaps you're trying to convince yourself? >>>>Forgive me, but you dont seem to be capable of reasoning outside of your own understanding (doesnt this go against Confuciousism?). The only reason I engaged you in this at all is because you openly challenged my "definition" of faith, yet you provide no definition or examples yourself. Rather you argue against every point. I am trying to understand you, but it sounds as if you are just defending your desire to be right. "We didn't start the fire"

I am asking for help on how to strike a conversation without the intent of having sex or have a sexual stigma placed. Just stimulating conversation and fun activities to share. Quote Be interested in them, the conversation will flow from there. "We didn't start the fire"

It appears that the ones who claimed it was impossible were the ones who made their claim on faith, or, more accurately, made their claim based on incorrect conclusions drawn from data analysis. Reality It is true to the extent that it is just as probable that the Flying Spaghetti Monster is the Supreme Being as it is probable that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. I think you are confusing faith in a supernatural being, for which there is no evidence, and the belief that something never before accomplished can be accomplished because there is no reason that it can't (i.e. it doesn't require violation of any natural laws). Im simply showing you that faith and belief are in the same flow of the imagination, and that both can be manifested into reality. Spiritually, faith found in Jesus produces good fruit and an indescribable joy, while wordly, belief in an idea produces progress and perseverance into something once thought "impossible". Sometimes "evidence" is not found without the idea (or spiritually, without faith) first. "We didn't start the fire"