mattaman

Your not even close to starting down the path. Its not money, its paper. We've scratched our heads and wondered how the natives traded away their nations for trinkets and beads. We've done it for paper, overeating, and tv. R U ready to leave maya yet Those stuck in maya, seek to be seen.

We will be having another fatality from an unstable rsl deployment. Hope its not me, your, or someone we care about. Thats hard cause most of us do care about the people, if we didn't we probably wouldn't say much about this. I've seen many times in this sport where I've spoken up softly, only to get quiet by the mass of grandiose resistance, and sure enough, the fatalities started stacking up on something, and I thought for my own conscience, I should just throw it out there cause I hate the regret of not speaking up and then some kid somewhere dies because the industry protects itself, or guards the coffers. Its been an honor hearing all sides and argueing. We'll be sure to do it again after the next fatality from this, then the next one. This responsibility lies with the manufacturers and the drop zone owners. I recommend they move fast on this, but like most, it takes tragedy to create change, and tragedy in the long run sometimes costs more, thats usually what its about. Good luck all Those stuck in maya, seek to be seen.

No ones hearing, or caring to hear the point. And yes, I'm gonna say it whether people like what I say or not. We've accepted that the people who die from unstable rsl fatalities are acceptable losses. 3 tandems and a host of other people. Now, to speak out against the rsl brings out a ton of backlash in this comminity, problem is, it covers up that these fatalities didn't have to happen, and we need another solution to the unstable rsl problem. I'm not accepting these fatalies as acceptable losses for a device that is outdated. Pointing out the dangers of an rsl in this sport is like kicking a hornets nest, and its time to address this problem. Cause there is no argument that it was acceptable for those people to die, possibly out of no fault of their own other than they trusted someone to help them make a skydive. Not the sport I signed up for, and I'll fight you on this til they kick me off this thread. We need an answer to this. Its time to fix this problem, before the next fatality, and the next one, then the next one..... As a community we're smart enough to solve it, rather than hide it. Those stuck in maya, seek to be seen.

I'll bet the skyhook fatalities is the lowest number. Sorry you think that it was acceptable for the rsl fatalities to die. They must be acceptable losses to you. Those stuck in maya, seek to be seen.

So the students who died from an entanglement by the rsl that would've been prevented by the skyhook are acceptable losses to you? Those stuck in maya, seek to be seen.

You've missed the point, the unstable rsl has killed people, and will kill again. Its just numbers. Mal main, unstable reserve, entanglement. The second point, I could care less about the manufacture, but I do care about the people, person. Is this ok or do you consider these people who've passed on from this acceptable losses? Are you remotely gonna feel bad when the next 22 year old nerd comes out for the jump of their dreams and gets a double mal sandwich. I think protecting and defending this is a diservice to the sport, not helping it. The sport has turned a bit politically correct on this and I'm tired of the silence. Its time to address fixing the problem of the unstable RSL deployment, especially on tandems and students. The situation I described is not ok. Skydiving is about people, and that means caring about this situation, this person. Those stuck in maya, seek to be seen.

Hypothetical: Drop zone packs a mal in the main for a student, student cuts it away unstable, rsl deploys the reserve while they are tumbling, they get entangled in the reserve, and die. Technically, the person was dead and had no chance to survive on the skydive. I'm not sure a waiver will stand this, I'm not sure it should. Especially when it can be prevented. Those stuck in maya, seek to be seen.

You guys rock, not making trouble here but just want this skeleton out of the closet. And it really is there! What would we say to a tandem I who through the drogue out unstable, tumbling right out the door of the airplane. What an asshole. Well, It can be worse with an rsl, only more subterminal and closer to the ground on an unstable cutaway. Yet, a TI who goes without it is labeled a rebel who puts his needs before his passenger, or her passenger. We used to honor out of the box thinking in this country, and this sport, many great inventions and lives were save by it. The rsl had its time, but that time has past, this needs to be said. I'm off this thread, thanks brothers for not leaving a brother dangling! Those stuck in maya, seek to be seen.

How about we say damn to the danger of unstable cutaways on tandems and address the issue with skyhooks on tandems to fix this problem. Those stuck in maya, seek to be seen.

My point is that rsl's are old technology that have caused, or been implicated in 3 relatively recent tandem fatalities that probably wouldn't have happened with skyhooks or if the instructor hadn't had an rsl on and deployed the reserve cleanly. Its tough saying this without people getting openly agitated but after a couple more fatalities from this problem we'll be sure to see a push to get skyhooks on all tandems and more discussion about it. rsl's are out of date backup devices. I think we've reached a time in the sport when we need to realize that skyhooks or nothing is probably the best way to go. Some people have thought that a tandem I who goes without an rsl is selfish. I think the opposite is true, get your competency in belly flying tandem stabalization up to par, practice you ep's to a high level of competency, and rsl's start looking a little dangerous. And yes, if you can't pull the emergency handle on a tandem cutaway, get out of tandems cause your not safe. I can't imagine doing tandems and not being capable of this. If your worried about a hard cutaway, make sure to do equipment checks. Sorry if I was confusing earlier. Those stuck in maya, seek to be seen.

I always encrourage tandem instructors who can't pull the reserve handle on their own to have the rsl on. They are safer with it. Having an rsl always risks entanglement, but your right, for you it is safer with it on. And you know this in your gut. Those stuck in maya, seek to be seen.

There have been tandem fatalities cause the RSL or tandem I deployer the reserve while they were unstable, tumbling on the cutaway, period. I've got about 19 tandem cutaways, the first 2 with the RSL connected. I felt the pilot chute/bridle bounce off my legs on the RSL deployments and made the decision that it was safer without it. I recommend we in the sport look at this issue seriously, cause the skyhook can prevent this, as well as instructors trained to not need the rsl. I'm so sorry for the instructors who understand and are dealing with this problem. It also hurts to reflect on the TI's who did their job and got tangled in the reserve deployments and died, they were doing the best they could. Those stuck in maya, seek to be seen.

Crazy makers. Don't manipulate them Chris, thats their game and it doesn't work for you, thats why your unhappy. Its really simple. Drop zones are dangerous places where people can kill themselves, others, and bring alot of bad press on the drop zone, and set a horrible example for other jumpers and the public. At the point at which they don't understand this and cannot take feedback to produce a safe environment, they go, plain and simple. Don't get emotional about it, upset, its their choice. They go. They can come back when they are safe and can take feeback and learn. Give em a smile, have a great day, I wish you well at the other drop zone that might permit that behavior, but not this one, have a great day! Those stuck in maya, seek to be seen.

Stretch it when it isn't swollen, electrolytes, glucosamine, ibuprofen. Start being very conscious of how much you use your elbow, limit in your ruitine, you can cut it down by having the passenger help on pulling some straps, steering, etc. Make sure to keep the less used muscles in your forarm strong so as to take pressure off the ones your using all the time. Change the way you keep your hands in the toggles a bit and use other muscle groups, tendons, etc. Don't pack it you can get someone else to. Elastic elbow braces. I had the surgery for pitchers elbow about eight years ago,it worked for about five years and then the prob returned, my elbows need constant awareness and maintenance when I'm busy, fortunatly thats not much now days. Good luck! Hydrate Those stuck in maya, seek to be seen.

i wonder if you'd change your tune if that extra fatality was your child. Don't worry, I'm sure that tandem instructor has learned that they could loose their ratings, and that its not cool to risk other people to try and look cool, and that if something happens it won't be defensible in court. I'm sure they've grown up and are a bit embarrased. NO worries, I've done stupid stuff too. Be safe with tandy's, they are clueless and scared, no matter how much they cover it up. Those stuck in maya, seek to be seen.

I think its natural to grow through addiction, mature. Maybe your done. Many people cycle through this sport and your a just about at that stage. Maybe some time off, or just not doing this so much. But you can also find every attitude you have against having fun, and defeat it, and then just have fun, for no reason at all. Then help others find this place, or not. But at least fun is a choice, when fun isn't a choice, your an addict. Choose your attitude. I've been there. Those stuck in maya, seek to be seen.

We have a problem. Some people think little regulation is good. Then they ruin it with stupidity and greed, then the overreaction creates lots of rules. Not addressing this problem is going to create regulation. Can we solve the problem, yes by thinking the problem can be solved. Start talking about it, asking about pilot competancy, and refusing to jump at shithole dropzones that have clueless jump pilots cause they don't care if you live and they just want you money. Support competant drop zones! Its your life, and I think there are a few people who have gone down with the ship and might have wanted their life back. Don't make that you! Those stuck in maya, seek to be seen.

Why do you skydive. This is not a question, its s statement. If you willing to risk your life to jump, you need to reflect on why. If its cause your a self promoting looser who uses adrenaline to overcompensate for feelings of inferiority, and you need to bugle out "I'm a skydiver," desperatly to the world cause you have no sense of self, then maybe its time to give it up and deal with your baggage, so you don't have an accident going toward the ground and start wishing you weren't there. The only reason I skydive now is cause I enjoy helping others to face fears and find the power internally to overcome other fears. Its got little to do with skydiving, but skydiving is the best vehicle. Don't search for why your afraid, but why your willing to risk your life. If you search deep enough it might have something to do with love. If you still stay in skydiving, bring this to the sport. Its the only thing worth risking our life for. The others are phoneys trying to convince others they are real so they can believe it themselves. We all feel fear, but we're willing to risk for whats in our hearts. Except narcissis, he risks for whats in the mirror cause he has lost his heart. If you stay in the sport, let you heart shine, there are others around. Matt Those stuck in maya, seek to be seen.

All great advice guys! Thanks Those stuck in maya, seek to be seen.

Put some electolyte tablets in the water, water without electrolytes sometimes just dilutes electrolyte balance and can make dehydration worse. Low sugar, peanuts, fruits, are great, a healthy trail mix. Also, alot of people don't realize how much water we loose through our lungs by just breathing in dry air. Dry air takes it out of our lungs. Up and down all day in airplanes, skydiving, especially due to dry air at higher altitudes, it takes its toll. I used to do alot of tandems in arizona, I'd be in the airplane for up to 7 to 8 hours a day, I could never stay hydrated well, only just stay on top of it, especially cause if you drink all you need, you gotta pee alot, and when your doing tandems all day long, thats so hard. Good luck! Those stuck in maya, seek to be seen.

Congradulations, your denial is going away. If you think I'm wrong about being afraid, really afraid, then go up in the airplane, open the door, and jump out without a parachute, cause thats what could happen if it goes wrong. All the bullshitters in this sport don't get that point and only get scared shitless when it goes wrong cause they desperatly cling to a persona of "alpha" "nothing will happen to me" "I'm such a together person." People like you and I know it could everytime and thats a real shit sandwich part of life, and we all get a bite. Educate yourself, train your ass off, only jump with outfits and pilots and planes you trust. Surrender the rest, and go back and uncover the deeper reason you do this stuff, and kick some ass like the warrior you know you are deep inside. Just a bit more honest now. It takes more courage to do something without denial, more love if your doing it to help others. Those stuck in maya, seek to be seen.

Agree wholeheartedly. Don’t think that is going to change unless this industry changes and puts the skydiving professional above carny status on a societal level. Agreed, people need to learn how the experience is internal and junkies or addicts are people running away from finding their inferiority complex and the desperate need to be seen and build a superiority complex. These people are nausiatingly dramatic, think their superior to others, and are generally the worst instructors preying off people to see them. Those stuck in maya, seek to be seen.

If you hit a solid fixed object with your head or center chest at 25mph, especially directly into it in the dark, your probably going to die instanty. Go drive down the road in your car, imagine putting your head out the window, and running it into a solid wall, tree, post, building, etc. Students and experienced jumpers do it once in a while, and they die. Flying with rear risers is part of the student program. If you can't fly your canopy with rear risers, you need to learn, before your doing night jumps with your canopy. But thats not the reason for my post, its the attitude of safety first, fun second. This attitude needs to be there on every jump, especially night jumps. When you train for a night jump, you need to train into account, what happens if, I didn't even hear that they had an alternative landing area picked out for this situation, what a concept. Quite often people die or get hurt in the sport not cause they didn't hear how they could have prevented in before hand, but cause they chose an attitude of not hearing it. People who defend decisions that need a bit more relfection are not your friends, they set us up thinking they are making us confident, but real confidence is the person who can critically reflect, where we don't want to, where it hurts a bit. This is the person that grows. I'm not critisicing, I am pointing out something that could save his life, and maybe someone elses. On the next night jump, I'll bet he handles it different from beginning to end, this could save someone else too. Good luck, matt Those stuck in maya, seek to be seen.

Let him learn mom! Those stuck in maya, seek to be seen.

I'll let you in on the most powerful safety advice ever. System redundency. Clearly something you didn't understand on that jump. What it means is, plan on things going wrong. Before you jump you need to realize something, its not like other sports where its ok til something goes wrong, when you leave the airplane its all wrong til it goes right, its a whole different mindset, this is why you have system redundency. Cause you can't afford to get caught without options or outs, which is what you clearly did, and your so right, its usually multiple faliures that create fatalities, and its cause you have people not having a system redundent mindset. When you leave the airplane, practice what your gonna do when it goes right, and also go through your head all the scenarios of it going wrong, you'll be a safer skydiver, and you won't get caught with your ass so far out in the wind. Also, you need to understand that rear risers at night in a lighted landing area is a hell of alot safer than a reserve deployment and landing into a dark unknown, you hit powerlines, your probably gonna die, I make mistakes all the time, the smart skydivers admit them, laugh, and learn, the stupid ones try to cover them up, look like their all together, and never learn, doomed to repeat bad judgment, good luck, your partner in mistakes, matt glad your still with us Those stuck in maya, seek to be seen.