Trae

in reply 2"The "problem" (if there is one) is improper application of Bernoulli's theorem by people who don't know how to do physics. " ... As far as I understand it PHYSICS does itself we just apply it (except for students who DO physics similarly to people doing ENGLISH in a classroom.) I wish my english would do itself. Any supposed analogy with rammin' or scrammin' is a misread on your part.(my reference to these was an attempt at illustrating how my idea was received not illustrating the idea itself.) That said the ram-jet principle does come a bit close to what I'm getting at. Your funnel analogy is helpful perhaps, but it's not thrust as such I'm talking about...it's about higher pressure being bled into a lower pressure zone in this case the HP zone beneath an airfoil.. eg the high pressure created within the funnel (or venturi) being bled to the lower boundary layer at right angles to the line of flight thereby not used as thrust but directed into lift. .and not all of it just enough to not adversly effect inflation ...if a section of the airfoil( say the rear 1/3 of the chord) utilised airlocks then the requirement for the internal pressure to maintain inflation would be reduced. (I know my english sucks) I realise this may not be a maintainable dynamic as the lift /drag Newtonian stuff has its effects. But at high speeds and/or extreme manoevering this effect could come into play offering its lift advantages. I think where we're coming unstuck here is that I'm talking dynamics while a lot of the replies have been from an assumed static state. eg The111's "I told you exactly what would happen if you took pressure out of the inside of the inflated wing - you would lose pressure (go figure). The wing would collapse (partially or totally, depending on how much pressure you take out of it). " ----true for say a balloon or a slow -low pressure ram air but not necessarily for an inflated ramair moving at high speed. Even though any ram /scram analogy is faulty (due to the fuel burning requirement) there are still some translatable principles . Eg the dynamics within the ram intake which creates the high pressure in place of the more normal compressor stages . Apparently in a ramjet this high pressure is further enhanced by certain swirl-type fluid dynamics that create even higher pressures in certain areas within the compressing section. Remember I only said I thought this could work at relatively high speeds eg in an extreme swooping situation or perhaps in a wingsuit ramair under certain circumstances. Thank you for at least replying to my 'crude' attempts at describing this little collection of ideas. I know it's nothing really new in itself as such but I still feel there may be some application here. The dynamics of fluids.....it always interested me how the equations for this field of engineering relied on an assumption of perfection ...and then worked backwards to the 'real' world.

I seem to recall a guy cutting up a torn paracommander to make his own dactyle...can't remember how it flew.. wouldn't mind seeing one fly again. very entertaining.

Hey Walt ... A collection of such screen captures could go down real well. Sort of like fleeting life DZ.com art on the go. Cheers

in reply to "The wing would collapse (partially or totally, depending on how much pressure you take out of it). " Yeah OK but what if the pressure was being replaced as quickly or quicker than it was being taken out? If this only happened at very high speeds there could be a surplus of high press if the inlet -outlet design allowed for it--- as in a one way valve (inside to outside underneath) of some description (perhaps on a micro level eg built/moulded into the fabric itself ). I know this sounds a bit out there ( it hasn't been particularly easy for me to put this idea into words ) and no doubt this would be problematic to achieve technically ... and would be a difficult problem in fluid mechanics /dynamics...but it's just an idea . I bet who ever first suggested the Ram jet motor to the wrong people got mocked and put down too. in reply to TomAiello's "I have and jump a canopy which effectively transfers pressure from the inside to the bottom surface. This is a (last-generation) FOX Vtec BASE canopy. It has open, 2 way vents on the bottom skin. These lead to a weaker flare, and a tendency to "accordion" and lose stability during hard toggle turns. BASE canopies have since moved on to one way valves that allow pressure transfer between bottom and interior in only one direction (inward).

in reply to ;I thought about a 3system.. but not for safety 1st main (tiny unlandable like say 39sqft) to fly for fun (yea I know a spin on this could "................................... Taking this a bit further why not (???) the 3rd tiny parachute being used in a dog-fight type skydive / canopy ride where you get to play dogfights in attack mode. Thought about this a little while ago and realised that you'd need a special jump-suit with integral hook knives around neck and along limbs to protect the body and to slice through your opponents canopy and /or lines. Yeah I know it sounds real dangerous but what a blast . International dog-fighting teams slicing up each others ultra high performance micro canopies with 2 back ups for 'normal' landings. Have any readers done a bit of dogfighting with streamers and HP canopies.? if not ya gotta try it ...lots of fun. Perhaps the next gen will get to do wild stuff like this. in reply to Rogerramjet's "Let's see, 750' @ 176ft/sec when entanglement occurs (4.2 seconds from impact). A really good skydiver maybe realizes they have a problem in 1 second. 1 more to pull silver (or bronze?), 2 seconds for deployment.... don't think so. It would be a close thing ....sure... better to avoid if poss. I suppose a real good skydiver wouldn't get there...... usually . However my thoughts are backed up by a bit of real life experience. I had a main/ reserve (roundy & square) entanglement (when I had about 120 jumps )and had to ride the mess down from about 2000'... lots of time to think about dying and stuff. If I had had a 3rd parachute it would have taken me less than 2 seconds to deploy it I assure you. Also small round parachutes at terminal could open within two seconds.... sometimes faster. The idea is that it might just slow you down a bit more not necessarily be 'landable by itself.

kerazy idea ..... Diesel oil skydiving farm. Skydivers work in the fields producing bio-diesel. Aircraft use bio-diesel engines burning bio-D grown by skyfarmers.

point taken Lou, Thing is my detractors had nothing to offer on topic except just rubbishing my idea....without saying why or having anything to offer except sideways putdowns. If that's the accepted standard of 'discussion' and how people with ideas get treated here then pretty poor in my estimation.

in reply to'And nowadays, it is hard to find a cattle prod when you need one. Good investment if you ask me.' You can have my cattle prod goin' cheap ....+ its only been used on pigs & dogs. (it's a bit bitten) This makes a fine DZ toy/walking stick as drunken skydivers think it's a reserve handle and automatically want to touch it. Can be attached to an electric suit for those times when you sleep at the fire and don't want to be touched while snoring. And you're right it was an excellent investment. where can you get more of that absinthe ? Hazy Kerazy

in reply to "Maybe you should have asked the basic questions about fluid dynamics BEFORE you impressed us all with your ideas for a revolution in ram-air wing design. " ... Impressed were you ? revolution you think? Not my intention just trying to express an idea in a forum where I thought such crude unformed ideas may have been welcome. I lernt..... you helped teech me. Another idea of mine ????...inflato sharks for use in chat rooms to devour creativity....but maybe you've already got one sitting on your shoulders? hint... it's in that HP zone.

inreply to:'I would never mess around with such fluff and nonsense. "

in reply to The111's "You're the one continually asking questions; that's hardly leading us... " Never heard of a leading question? ..and since when has asking questions been a bad thing when you want to learn something.? Only around here I'd guess Do you know that a venturi replaces the pressure by the very nature of the flow through it.....starting to get some where???? but it's not me that's learning here except how to talk with people who appear quicker to put something down they don't understand rather than being open to other people's ideas. But thank you ....it's been very edumacational ..... just a bit too off topic for me. You take the high road and he takes the low road ...me I'm goin flyin'

Cheers Nick ...good to hear an experienced voice of reason. As to the burn out issue that'd only be because these dedicated types get severely overworked trying to maintain decent standards. A major problemo apears to be that there is always a ready supply of less experienced people who are prepared to do the job for lower pay and conditions for a short while thereby sabotaging the more experienced and dedicated professionals who truly deserve a better rate of pay. In other industries this 'scab labour' problem has sometimes been resolved with union activity or guild type protections. Mention this type of protection in skydiving world and you're booed of the stage by the DZO minions who happily stand in line to pick up any crumbs available. In the skydiving industry the transient nature of a lot of the participants heavily affects the employment dynamics . Some of these characteristics are very simialr to what happens in certain illegal substance distribution networks...ie a ready supply of addicted people who'll do anything for a free hit. Skydiving as a potentially profound sporting activity deserves to attract the best professional trainers and standard bearers possible. Other industries have proven this can only happen if the pay matches the talent.

Mike , I think you're OK Wish I could simplify it for you and me....then we' could just skydive and have a completely carefree fun jumping life..... .....and I really hope you poms teach these stuck up ozzie cricketers a lesson or three. Ciao

inreply to "I was wondering if you could live good just off the money made off skydiving. I see a lot of people do it but is it a comfortable life or just a day to day meager existance " The pay is peanuts and they've got monkeys.

inreply to "The pressure inside the ram air wing HAS to be higher than the pressure outside, or the wing would collapse. The fact that you even ask the question .... " And so IS there an advantage to transferring this higher pressure to the high pressure zone beneath the airfoil.?????.....(this is like leading a little kiddie ,,,but we'll get there ...just keep footing one poot down in front of the other ) in reply to'Yes, all previous knowledge of fluid dynamics is wrong. '.......................................................... If you're teaching it I'm not surprised. the fact that I even bothered with this here is more of an issue.................

in reply to "Discuss. " OK. I've heard 'girls' and one or two women say that kissing a girl is a bit like kissing your hand....or your mother ....or your daughter......or your lover. I get to feed two beautiful little girly doggies that seem to love to smooch especially first thing in the morning...what they're doing is sharing where they've been by exchanging taste senations picked up during the night. Apparently dogs are just a bit like that.

in reply to riggerrob's "Troll! " Is that like a put down or something??? Where I come from trolls live under bridges and emit strange utterances to those crossing over...and ultimately get done over by a few goats. It's hard not to agree with your other statements though. However the idea of chest mounted reserves(or tertiary) being used more does have some advantages. And as some others indicated it's probably not for the average skydiver... probably. One advantage is that you can actually see the thing and if it needs manual attention its right there in front of you not hiding in an inaccesible place in the small of your back. Intentional cutawayscould be helpful for people who don't really know how they're going to react when in an emergency situation. Often skydivers don't have a clue how their reserve flies or flares. More common tertairy availoability & use would make this less common. From the statistics a lot of people just freeze in emergencies and end up relying on AAd's or get dead. I remember some talk about making an intentional cut-away being made part of the training requirements. This was apparently to cover against litigation due to bounced students not actually getting any experience of how they may react in a real emergency. The intentional C/A was touted as a potential means of reducing student fatalities. AAD's took over this role I suppose. Just some thoughts...... if that's trolling ...there's lots of fishin' goin' on round here.

in reply 2"I just can't concentrate on anything, keep recalling the episodes of the day before , anticipating the ones to come next week-end, reading lots of skidiving related stuff on the web and etc. " Sounds like a typical case of 'time to join the skydiving industry'itis. If you can't shake these feelings you might have to (a) seek pschological help for blocking out unwanted thoughts. (b) get a full time skydiving job, (c) save up and do a lot of skydiving all at once witha bit of a break to get over it before returning to work (d) what everyone else says. There's no cure now except complete brain replacement therapy.......you've got da skydivin' bug that's goin' around and around.....................

in rep 2'I don't know what you are accused of or whether you honestly did it or not. I hope you didn;t, and alhtough i cannot be sure i would give you the benefit of the doubt. ' The feeling that you've apparently completely misread this thread and it's issue and tried to make it out to be MY problem demonstrates this threads general topic quite adequately............. thank you. This isn't about me or your misunderstandings or 'leave the country suggestions" .... it's about the psycho-pathic behaviour of some of your/our country- men and the ease with which they manipulate the system and social mind-set. Your suggestion that I emmigrate has caused a fair bit of mirth over here....that is how oz got started after all.( Love your sense of humor drude. That is one thing that pommie land is still good for .... a good laugh

Now that canopies are getting so small and pack up sooo tiny it has occurred to me that in some situations a 3rd canopy or second reserve might appeal to extreme safety conscious skydivers. Scenario 1. You're going in with a double horseshoe mal after your skybuddies got your 100 jump dump out wrong and dumped both your canopies when you were upside down by accident . Last thoughts ....'I wish I had another parachute.' Scenario 2 You're going in cause you smoked it down and your cypress fired your reserve into your main just as you were going through 750'. Last thoughts....'I wish I had a third parachute.' Scenario 3 You're going in with nothing out cause you couldn't dump your main cause you misrouted your bridle and your reserve handle lost the swaging due to rusting cause of all those beach jumps....last thoughts......etc. Scenario 4 Your CRW buddies wrapped you up and cutaway leaving you with a mess a fabric and lines ..you dump your reserve but the brainless spring puts it into the mess.. your last resort?... to throw your chest mount hand deploy 15'micro ZP roundy out through a nearby hole with its long bridle to lesson your impact with mother earth. I'm sure there are heaps more possible scenarios where a tertiary would come in handy . A small roundy with a long bridle that packs up into a shaving case size chest mounted container comes to mind. AAD's compulsory for novices??? A 3rd parachute could possible save more more experienced skydivers from an unnecessary death or serious injury. Hopefullly your last thoughts won't be "I wish I had a third parachute." FIRE AWAY

Most definitely I think we're really the only normally crazy ones

in reply to ' Why are so "few" black or asian skydivers out there? At least in the western world. I find it confusing and sort of weird. ' White caucasian = alien technology children =happy to further the alien cause of trying to build a spaceship to get away from this smog ball. Dark skinned natives= children of the earth = happy to keep both feet planted on da mother ship. Yeller skinned birthplace of humanity = anything goes.

inreply to mike111 "What exactly is your injustice though? Perseceuted under the British empire or wrongly accused of a crime by those in power because it suited them' G'day Mike111,

inreply to "For my modest jump numbers, I am a strong and safety-minded canopy pilot, comfortable in no wind in 100 degree heat. In reply to the line length thingy ' this depends a bit on the canopy design. Some CRW canopies have shortened lines to give quicker rotations . These shortliners may have altered flare characteristics due ti the altered line length. Usually as the canopy gets smaller so the lines get shorter. This OFTEN makes the canopy respond to control input faster and as there is also less mass to move things can happen a lot faster. So it's not a line of bull .....the guys correct ......things can happen very differently to what you'd be used to . Not meaning to be unfeeling or anything but you really could learn a thing or two by reading some fatality reports. you'll find that a large % of deaths are due to exactly the type of downsizing you're proposing. It's not a matter of what you think you know or how safe you may be now it's the unexpected things that a person with 40 jumps just hasn't had time to experience under canopy or during changed landing conditions. 40 jumps on a 170 ?. You could happily do another 100 before thinking about going down in size. Remember this isn't like in freefall where there hopefully are fewer large objects to strike with deadly force. You can have a lot of fun learning to fly with the larger canopy (a 170 some 10 -15 years ago would have been considered high performance for a novice) where any mistakes will be at a relatively slower and less lethal pace. Downsize too fast for cosmetic or 'comfort' reasons and your statistical likelihood of hurting yourself goes through the roof....at your stated experience level. Caution is the better part of valour when you're close to the ground .

inreply 2" I'm curious to know - how did swooping start? Someone must of started doing it somewhere and been seen by others etc. Who were the original pioneers? " Before ram airs there used to be things like Pteradactyles (sorry about the spelling) which were triangular single skin things a bit like a chopped up paracommander. It was also possible to make a roundy swoop but you had to work pretty hard at it. Some people even recomended opening up your chest strap on an ex-mil roundy to get some extra performance.(not a good idea as it's easy to fall forward if it opens right out...yep did that ) Apparently the only way to get a decent landing out of the triangular bed sheets was to "swoop" it although it wasn't called swoopping then..It was called either hook-turning or landing out of a swing or oscillation. The guys who flew these things were the real pioneers and 'real' hell men . Some even base jumped them as they opened VERY fast (some had incredibly long lines). No woosy types I ever saw even considered jumping one of the 'dacts' and I doubt very much if many people today would either. There's nothing new under the sun