stoneycase

yes, we found them on the streets, but in possession of a particular brand of watch.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casio_F91W therefore, it follows logically they must be terrorists *sigh* Does whisky count as beer? - Homer There's no justice like angry mob justice. - Skinner Be careful. There's a limited future in low pulls - JohnMitchell

I'm waaay late to the party, but I thought this would be a great place to throw up an oldie but a goodie (and one of my favorites) "Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." --- Thomas Jefferson, 1787 IMHO, the greatest 'faith' one can have, is not in God, or Christ, or any other deity. The greatest faith one can have is in yourself. Does whisky count as beer? - Homer There's no justice like angry mob justice. - Skinner Be careful. There's a limited future in low pulls - JohnMitchell

bad idea...if for no other reason than 'a door can swing both ways' using the military to keep people from coming into the us also means we are using the military to keep people from leaving. (imo the NG isn't going to sit there and focus on entry only - they're also going to look @ exit) remember when it wasn't neccessary to have a passport to travel to Mexico, or a US Territory? (i.e. USVI) those days are long gone. what will the other changes be once we've fully established a 'strong military presence' at our borders? the idea, itself, is good - adding manpower and resources. using the national guard - i think i'll have to fall in line with a bill a bit here - it should be a 'surge' action, not an 'everday' action. i do believe that any solution to illegal immigrants must be focused on entry and exit but i don't believe that the NG and a 'triple-layer' fence are the answers we need... On the border fence, the Senate by an 83-16 vote backed fences on 370 miles (595 km) of the 2,000-mile (3,200-km) border, focusing on areas where there is a high volume of illegal crossings. About 70 miles (112 km) already exist, although some of the fence is in disrepair, and the Department of Homeland Security already has plans to build the rest. http://today.reuters.com/investing/financeArticle.aspx?type=bondsNews&storyID=2006-05-17T202621Z_01_N17299988_RTRIDST_0_USA-IMMIGRATION-UPDATE-1.XML imho, this is what we'll end up with: http://www.latimes.com/media/photo/2006-01/21632986.jpg Does whisky count as beer? - Homer There's no justice like angry mob justice. - Skinner Be careful. There's a limited future in low pulls - JohnMitchell

how about this...no. i indicated, more than once in this thread, that the topic pisses me off. i'm sure it doesn't piss you off at all, you're obviously on the other side of the fence. that's fine. here's my advice to you (along the same lines as your advice to me): STFU. you'll have to excuse me if i don't put a whole lot of stock in an organizational process to 'catch the problem' when the same organizations process to 'prevent the problem' in the first place failed miserably because of the unethical actions of the individuals involved. so, explain to me then, why this happened: After learning Jared had cleared this first hurdle toward enlistment, Brenda said she called and asked for Ansley's supervisor and got Sgt. Alejandro Velasco. She said she begged Velasco to review Jared's medical and school records. Brenda said Velasco declined, asserting that he didn't need any paperwork. Under military rules, recruiters are required to gather all available information about a recruit and fill out a medical screening form. "He was real cocky and he says, `Well, Jared's an 18-year-old man. He doesn't need his mommy to make his decisions for him."' mom is trying to roll the problem up and meets nothing but resistance from the recruiter, then the recruiter's 'supervisor'. knowing no other alternatives, it looks like she went right to the media. the media went at it and viola, we have an investigation. not quite as simple as you make it out to be, is it? especially when the people that should be helping you, are doing everything to stop you. as i'm sure this one will be, now that the local media is all over it, and it's been picked up around the country. wonder what the result would have been if mom had never called the newspaper to ask for help... no, he wasn't steps away from the bus when the investigation started. but that certainly wasn't due to the actions of the military or the recruiters. that is due entirely to the actions of mom and the media. period. had they waited for your 'process' to start the kid *would have been* steps from the bus. see the difference there? one path stops it NOW. the other path lets it run until enough of the pieces have stacked up in the right places that the process stops. which one do you think mom and dad are going to go for? path a or path b? now consider mom and dad's experience with the recruitment process itself, how confident do you think they will be in *any* other process from the military? ooo, the dreaded "he must be a commie" question. lol. again, you'll have to bear with the energy surrounding this subject. it really pisses me off. my story is actually rather simple: after 2 years in Army ROTC on a full scholarship i left of my own volition. i told the Army and ROTC to stick it, and send me the bill. they did, and i'm paying about $35k back in mo payments with interest. i finished school on time, worked an entry level position for an IT firm and now i work for a DoD contractor. i'll be pursuing my masters in about 12mo. had i not decided to leave Army ROTC i'd be stuck in a shit-hole sandbox a couple thousand miles away. it put a huge rift between myself and my father (as i said, he was career) but there's not much i can do about that. in many ways i can't stand the way the military operates. even after only seeing a little sliver of it, i decided that it would be ridiculous to commit years of my life to organization like that given the alternatives that exist in this world. if i want to support my country i'll do it another way (like work for this contractor), not all of us need a rifle to contribute. some of us can do it with our minds - kinda interesting how it works that way, isn't it? /to everyone else who responded, sorry i won't be able to provide you with individual responses like this one. something about mr. army recruiter telling me to LTFU rubbed me the wrong way. Does whisky count as beer? - Homer There's no justice like angry mob justice. - Skinner Be careful. There's a limited future in low pulls - JohnMitchell

Unless Army ROTC counts (which it shouldn't), no. I am, however, a .mil brat with a father who did 29+ yrs in the Army as an officer. Most of my childhood was spent on base and overseas. Prior to going to college the plan was .mil, all the way. yes and yes. accepting an ROTC scholarship gave me a lil first hand experience, including the medical exams (yes, even the drop your shorts so i can feel your testicles exams). did you bother to RTFA? (that's read the fcuking article)? here, let me help you, in case reading isn't your strong suit: Maj. Curt Steinagel, commander of the Military Entrance Processing Station in Portland, said the papers filled out by Jared's recruiters contained no indication of his disability. Steinagel acknowledged that the current climate is tough on recruiters. ... Jared scored 43 out of 99 on the Army's basic entrance exam -- 31 is lowest grade the Army allows for enlistment, military officials said. After learning Jared had cleared this first hurdle toward enlistment, Brenda said she called and asked for Ansley's supervisor and got Sgt. Alejandro Velasco. She said she begged Velasco to review Jared's medical and school records. Brenda said Velasco declined, asserting that he didn't need any paperwork. Under military rules, recruiters are required to gather all available information about a recruit and fill out a medical screening form. you're sitting there saying, "this is a non-issue, the process would've caught him and exposed the problem, long before he hit the battlefield" and i'm sitting here reading an article that says *exactly the opposite*. it says, quite clearly, that the recruiters were deliberately disguising the problem(s) to make sure the kid got through. and not only that, but when presented with evidence from the kid's mother, the recruiters declined to even *review the evidence* (i.e. medical history) Um no. That's probably what physicians are for. But do you think that the military would require the recruiter to 'gather all available information about a recruit' if it didn't care what the recruiter thought, or knew about a candidate? The recruiter, and the recruiter's info are part of the process, hell they start the damn thing - the same process you seem to think is infallible. Yeah that's a good way to handle it then, let the recruiters push anything they can through to meet quota, and let Basic Training and DI's sift through it all to find the autistic kids. Sounds like a plan, where do I sign up to participate? How about this, 'Don't you think the recruiters would've realized that a person who's sensitive to loud noises has no business carrying an automatic rifle?' I think you didn't RTFA. I also think that your idea that, "the process will catch it" is flawed in it's very foundation - the recruiters start and influence the process. In this case it's quite clear that all the recruiters involved, including the leadership of the local recruitment office, were acting unethically and distorting the truth to get the kid into uniform. How's your process going to catch the problem when the people managing/controling/participating in the process aren't worth 2 shits? Does whisky count as beer? - Homer There's no justice like angry mob justice. - Skinner Be careful. There's a limited future in low pulls - JohnMitchell

well, i hope they can find more autistic kids to fill the ranks then. better yet, i hope they just lower the age to 14/15/16. that ought to fix it. this way they can also recruit at the middle schools. /here timmy...play with this shiny pen...that's right...now sign down here...that's a good boy... Does whisky count as beer? - Homer There's no justice like angry mob justice. - Skinner Be careful. There's a limited future in low pulls - JohnMitchell

You'll have to speak up. I'm wearing a towel - Homer I have misplaced my pants - Homer Are you sure you're an accredited and bonded pornographer? - Homer Christmas is a time when people of all religions come together to worship Jesus Christ. - Bart /this could go one for awhile...but i like where it's going! Does whisky count as beer? - Homer There's no justice like angry mob justice. - Skinner Be careful. There's a limited future in low pulls - JohnMitchell

Because there is only so many high profile stories in a day? because they all have people sitting and reading/watching the AP wire? Does whisky count as beer? - Homer There's no justice like angry mob justice. - Skinner Be careful. There's a limited future in low pulls - JohnMitchell

I totally disagree with the idea that 'if he could do the job, let him'. Honestly, you're going to put an automatic rifle into the hands of autistic kid who has problems with loud noises...not exactly 'Guiness-style brilliant' But if you can support the idea that this is a problem, and what was done was wrong, than I have no beef with you. Anybody else? /for some reason, stories like this really piss me off. i can't explain it, they just really really piss me off. Does whisky count as beer? - Homer There's no justice like angry mob justice. - Skinner Be careful. There's a limited future in low pulls - JohnMitchell

but as far as you're concerned (and correct me if i'm wrong here) its OK for a little heavy handed recruiting of this boy? correct? you say it's not brain surgery, if he can do the job, let him do the job. is that still your position? or are you now saying that you have 'no position' as you don't know the kid or the job. here's my position: there needs to be accountability at that recruitment office, by those recruiters, and from their leadership. what they did was unacceptable and unethical. and if this, along with the statistics/stories in the article, are any indication of the general 'state of affairs' for mil recruiters then the general public might want to re-think how much leadway we provide recruiters at high schools and colleges around this country. if this is being done to a middle class white family in suburban oregon, what's being done to a low income minority family in the rural south/midwest? how do the recruiters SELL TO THEIR CHILDREN? Does whisky count as beer? - Homer There's no justice like angry mob justice. - Skinner Be careful. There's a limited future in low pulls - JohnMitchell

You sound like the recruiter. Need a new job? You're telling me an 18yr old boy, fresh out of high school, with autism is ready for a forward combat position in the US Army. You've got to be joking. Because at least someon is treating 'him like an adult' and giving him 'responsibility'... No, the question is does the military allow autisic people and did the recruiter purposely not include the boys medical history in his recruitment paperwork. But if you'd like an answer to your question, I direct your attention to this section of the article: During a recent family gathering, a relative asked Jared what he would do if an enemy was shooting at him. Jared ran to his video game console, killed a digital Xbox soldier and announced, "See! I can do it!" To me, that example right there says it all - the kid doesn't even remotely understand what the duties and responsibilities are of a soldier. He can't possibly make an informed decision about joining. We have a winna! We have a winna! We have a winna! uh-huh....from the same article: The Guinthers said that on Tuesday evening, Cpl. Ansley showed up at their door. They said Ansley stated that he would probably lose his job and face dishonorable discharge unless they could stop the newspaper's story. Yeah real quality guy that recruiter and his SGT. After they pull all their shit with her son, they have the nerve to come out and request the family not talk to the press for fear of the DD. Guess what Mr. Recruiter? Your ass is grass and the media's gonna be the lawn mower. fine, but try to stay on course and remember the facts: 1. the mil doesn't allow autistic 2. the kids medical history was not included in his recruitment paperwork 3. it took the family raising a hell of a fuss, and contacting both the media and higher-ups to force an investigation Does whisky count as beer? - Homer There's no justice like angry mob justice. - Skinner Be careful. There's a limited future in low pulls - JohnMitchell

Perhaps you don't understand autism... Autism is classified as a neurodevelopmental disorder that manifests itself in markedly abnormal social interaction, communication ability, patterns of interests, and patterns of behavior. seeing a little clearer now? let's try some more... By definition, autism must manifest delays in "social interaction, language as used in social communication, or symbolic or imaginative play," with "onset prior to age 3 years", according to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. Much of this is due to the sensory system of autistics, which is quite different from the sensory system of other people, since certain stimulations can affect an autist differently than a non-autist, and the degree to which the sensory system is affected varies wildly from one autistic person to another. Autism presents in a wide degree, from those who are nearly dysfunctional and apparently mentally handicapped to those whose symptoms are mild or remedied enough to appear unexceptional ("normal") to the general public. In terms of both classification and therapy, autistic individuals are often divided into those with an IQ80 are referred to as having "high-functioning autism" (HFA). Low and high functioning are more generally applied to how well an individual can accomplish activities of daily living, rather than to IQ. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autism Still don't care? You've got the military recruiting someone with obvious communication and behavioral issues. This kid obviously has much more than just a learning disability. RTFA, there's plenty in there about what the kids exact symptoms are. Suffice to say the symptoms aren't limited. Sure the kid is not exactly 'Timmy' from South Park, but he sure as hell isn't 'fully functional' either. It's ridiculous for you to sit there and say it's "not brain surgery". I wonder how the rest of the men in this kid's potential unit would feel to hear you say that, knowing full well that each man is responsible for not only his own life but protecting the lives of everyone in his unit. He's got a weapon in his hands and the authority to kill the enemy. Add to that the regular responsibilities that go along with being a soldier in combat and I just can't fathom how you sit there and say you don't have a problem with it. Where do you draw the line then? Does he need to be in a wheelchair? Should his IQ be

Looks like the recruiting problem continues... http://www.newhousenews.com/archive/roberts050806.html Diagnosed with autism at age 3, Jared is polite but won't talk to people unless they address him first. It's hard for him to make friends. He lives in his own private world. ... "When Jared first started talking about joining the Army, I thought, `Well, that isn't going to happen,"' said Paul Guinther, Jared's father. "I told my wife not to worry about it. They're not going to take anybody in the service who's autistic." ... But they did. Last month, Jared came home with papers showing that he had not only enlisted, but signed up for the Army's most dangerous job: cavalry scout. He is scheduled to leave for basic training Aug. 16. ... Last fall, Jared began talking about joining the military after a recruiter stopped him on his way home from school and offered a $4,000 signing bonus, $67,000 for college and more buddies than he could count. ... Brenda phoned her two brothers, both veterans. She said they laughed and told her not to worry. The military would never take Jared. ... "I said Jared, `What are you doing?' `I'm taking the test' -- he said the entrance test. I go, `Wait a minute.' I said, `Who's giving you the test?' He said, `Corporal.' I said, `Well let me talk to him."' ... Brenda said she spoke to Cpl. Ronan Ansley and explained that Jared had a disability, autism, that could not be outgrown. She said Ansley told her he had been in special classes, too -- for dyslexia. ... After learning Jared had cleared this first hurdle toward enlistment, Brenda said she called and asked for Ansley's supervisor and got Sgt. Alejandro Velasco. ... She said she begged Velasco to review Jared's medical and school records. Brenda said Velasco declined, asserting that he didn't need any paperwork. Under military rules, recruiters are required to gather all available information about a recruit and fill out a medical screening form. ... "He was real cocky and he says, `Well, Jared's an 18-year-old man. He doesn't need his mommy to make his decisions for him." I understand the difficult job that a military recruiter has, especially right now. But this is completely unacceptable to me, and I'd like to see some people get burned on this. There needs to be accountability when something like this happens. Not just the recruiter either, I'm tired of watching the .mil idea of accountability (shit rolls downhill), it's fcuking ridiculous. They tried to recruit an autistic kid for a forward combat position. WTH were they thinking? Nevermind, scratch that, it's obvious what they were thinking. The more important question is what do we DEMAND be done to prevent this type of problem from occuring in the future? I've always been one to give the recruiters the slack they need to get the job done. I don't exactly favor the idea that truckloads of Federal $ are tied to how a school treats it's local mil recruiters, but I do believe that we owe a debt of gratitude to men and women in uniform. The general public, including academic institutions, should provide where they can. But when this results, when I see stats that say over 400 mil recruiters received punishment or an outright dismissal for their behavior, I have to wonder whether or not I am being naieve by supporting the recruiters even in the slightest. The high school provides the avenue for the recruiters to sell to the kids. The recruiters used this avenue and sold to an autistic kid. Does this mean we should eliminate their avenue of sales? Does this mean we need better oversight of recruiters? What if a news organization hadn't picked up this story? What if this family was lower income and didn't have the resources to raise a fuss about it? I, for one, would be completely disgusted to hear about the death of an autistic soldier in combat, especially if this was the backstory behind the soldiers recruitment. Our military is supposed to be all volunteers, that's what makes our military so great - for the most part people are there of their own volition. Practically drafting an autistic kid by tricking him and side-stepping the medical issues (and his family for that matter) destroys everything a volunteer army is founded on. Does whisky count as beer? - Homer There's no justice like angry mob justice. - Skinner Be careful. There's a limited future in low pulls - JohnMitchell

' I think reality set in pretty quickly .... yeah, my thoughts exactly. good ol' zack realized that he grandstanded in that courtroom for no reason. treated his defense team like the enemy for no good reason. too bad, should've wised up sooner. could've been a whole diff ball game. Does whisky count as beer? - Homer There's no justice like angry mob justice. - Skinner Be careful. There's a limited future in low pulls - JohnMitchell

Generally not. This doesn't seem likely to go anywhere. http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/MOUSSAOUI?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2006-05-08-18-23-44 "I had thought I would be sentenced to death based on the emotions and anger toward me for the deaths on Sept. 11, but after reviewing the jury verdict and reading how the jurors set aside their emotions and disgust for me and focused on the law and the evidence ... I now see that it is possible that I can receive a fair trial even with Americans as jurors." ah the irony...the attacker realizes his victims are not the assholes he thought they were... "I wish to withdraw my guilty plea and ask the court for a new trial to prove my innocence of the Sept. 11 plot," Moussaoui wrote. "I have never met (lead 9/11 hijacker) Mohammed Atta and, while I may have seen a few of the other hijackers ... (in Afghanistan), I never knew them or anything about their operation." ah, we knew it all along. just a dope. too bad the US Gov propped him up like he WAS the 19th hijacker...wonder if that's a testament to our 'intelligence level' or what-have-you or if it's just a testament to the Gov's desire to find somebody and prosecute them to 'appease' the public and divert attention from the real issues. Probably a lil of both I imagine...(I did enjoy the ridiculous argument from the Prosecution that 'had Moussaoui told the FBI the truth' 9/11 could have been prevented and we could have arrested some of the hijackers...) Does whisky count as beer? - Homer There's no justice like angry mob justice. - Skinner Be careful. There's a limited future in low pulls - JohnMitchell

ahem.... Fox and the war in Iraq A year-long study by the University of Maryland's Program on International Policy Attitudes (PIPA)[8] (http://www.pipa.org/OnlineReports/Iraq/Media_10_02_03_Report.pdf) reported that Americans who relied on the Fox News Channel for their coverage of the Iraq war were the most likely to believe misinformation about the war, whatever their political affiliation may be. Those mistaken facts, the study found, increased viewers' support for the war. The study found that, in general, people who watched Fox News were, more than for other sources, convinced of several untrue propositions which were actively promoted by the Bush administration and the cheerleading media led by Fox, in rallying support for the invasion of Iraq: (percentages are of all poll respondents, not just Fox watchers) * 57% believed the falsity that Iraq gave substantial support to Al-Qaida, or was directly involved in the September 11 attacks. (48% after invasion) * 69% believed the falsity that Saddam Hussein was personally involved in the September 11 attacks. * 22% believed the falsity that weapons of mass destruction had been found in Iraq. (21% believed that chem/bio weapons had actually been used against U.S. soldiers in Iraq during 2003) In the composite analysis of the PIPA study, 80% of Fox news watchers had one of more of these misperceptions; in contrast to 71% for CBS and 27% who tuned to NPR/PBS http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Fox_News Here's a question: If you ask a bunch of people, subjectively, who they trust and they ALL respond with the same answer/person/source does that AUTOMATICALLY mean the source is trustworthy? Could it mean that the source is, perhaps, very persuasive? /one study says that Fox news watchers were 'convinced of several untrue propositions'. the other study says that Fox news is 'most trusted' by Americans. hmmm, is there another possible conclusion that we can reach? hint: if you persuade someone to believe something, and they truly believe you, when someone else asks that person, "whom do you trust?" how do you think they will respond? Does whisky count as beer? - Homer There's no justice like angry mob justice. - Skinner Be careful. There's a limited future in low pulls - JohnMitchell

It makes me sad to see the holiday get wound up in all the immigration b.s....after all, we all know where the best Tequila comes from. I say we make friends and play nice. Remember what's at stake here: 100% agave, people. 100%! now where is my cindo de mayo hat.... Does whisky count as beer? - Homer There's no justice like angry mob justice. - Skinner Be careful. There's a limited future in low pulls - JohnMitchell

why does the Bonfire hate America? Does whisky count as beer? - Homer There's no justice like angry mob justice. - Skinner Be careful. There's a limited future in low pulls - JohnMitchell

why do concrete barrier's hate america? it's obvious that the barrier's are terrorists...they attacked one of our elected officials. no, seriously, it's OK - just a lil DD. what's the harm? http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/bushdui1.html http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/bushdmv1.html /i can't throw stones here, i'm in the middle of a glass house on this one... Does whisky count as beer? - Homer There's no justice like angry mob justice. - Skinner Be careful. There's a limited future in low pulls - JohnMitchell

just one more post to stir the pot a bit... same news, different source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/02/AR2006050200704.html In March, the Bush administration approved a 1.9 mile-per-gallon increase in the standards for sport utility vehicles, minivans and pickups -- all in the light truck class that includes big gas guzzlers -- to 24.1 mpg between 2008 and 2011. It also rewrote the rules for calculating how far light trucks must go on a gallon of gasoline. But the lawsuit, joined by the attorneys general of California, Connecticut, Maine, Massachusetts, New Mexico, Oregon, Rhode Island, and Vermont, says the move included language that could "create incentives to build larger, less fuel-efficient models" and attempts to pre-empt a California law requiring a reduction of greenhouse gas tailpipe emissions. hmm, i seem to recall saying this: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2187515;#2187515 so while all the legislation gets sorted out, the car companies get their acts together, and i save to buy a new vehicle i'm stuck with the responsibility of absorbing the higher fuel costs from now-->then. btw, http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/...69eea57529cdba046a0/ seems like they're focused on 2008 model year. at the very earliest(and really its 2011, according to the PDF 'final rule'). what do you and i do from now till then? i still have to drive to/from work everyday in something... upon further reading (this analysis may be incorrect tho, so take it as .02) seems like they are making SWEEPING changes from their current standards for 2008 MY (which is 22.5mpg for a mfr fleet) to a whopping 24MPG. WOW! a whole 1.5 additional mpg avg on their entire fleet... (pg 12, para 2, 'we estimate...) so i wasn't the only one who looked at the 'amazing power' of congress and our exec to fix the problem with skepticism, given the direction that was issued on paper...looks like quite a few Attorney Generals read that same PDF and also decided it was garbage. hoooray. at least some of our elected officials are out there reading and doing the math... this kind of bull will not fix the problem. i guess i'll say it again: american auto mfr's have screwed the pooch royally and our legislators are paralyzed to assist. have fun at the pump ya'll. Does whisky count as beer? - Homer There's no justice like angry mob justice. - Skinner Be careful. There's a limited future in low pulls - JohnMitchell

*bump* CA Attorney General finally does something: http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2006/05/ca_cafe.html "California Attorney General Bill Lockyer has filed a lawsuit challenging the Bush Administration's new fuel economy standards for SUVs and light trucks..." ... "These rules fail that test by not requiring enough from the auto industry. The Bush Administration once again has missed an opportunity to promote new technology, fuel economy and conservation by issuing fuel economy goals that are status quo." ... "The lawsuit's allegations mirror comments the plaintiffs submitted to NHTSA during the public review period on the rules. In a November, 2005 letter, the plaintiffs stated NHTSA "failed to consider alternative approaches that would have promoted energy conservation, made meaningful contributions to increased fuel economy and encouraged technological innovation." ... "President Bush is making empty promises to Americans about fuel economy," added Lockyer. "He wants Congress to give him authority because he claims he will increase gas mileage in cars, but he has failed to set meaningful increases for gas-guzzling SUVs and light trucks." NO! say it ain't so...our Commander in Chief is out there promoting the status quo when it comes to auto/oil. And all the while we sit here thinking "These outrageous gas prices will CERTAINLY encourage new technology. The Free Market, with a little help from the Gov will get a hybrid in our driveways in no time..." But wait, Bush said we have to use less oil, right? Oh that was just B.S. I get it... Thanks again Mr. Attorney General. This is the second time you've stepped up to the plate and called bullshi... /how bout them CAFE laws now...lookin MIGHTY effective... Does whisky count as beer? - Homer There's no justice like angry mob justice. - Skinner Be careful. There's a limited future in low pulls - JohnMitchell

make sense, explains why shirley and fred think they *must* protest at soldiers funerals. the Bible commands them to continue their works... no, not really. look at our well known fundamentalist enemies. they aren't christians, yet they contain the same types of hate and intolerance. see shirley's video? seen pat robertson on tv? ever watched CBN/TBN? feel free to tear me down, but imho, there are plenty of examples (not limited to christianity) that individuals with deep religious convictions are hateful of those things/people that go against their beliefs and intolerant of alternatives that do not 'mesh' with their existing belief structure. if you want specific examples please let me know. i would be happy to provide past and present for you. it doesn't all need to be 'crusades this' or what have you. i'm talking about events in the last 10-20yrs. true. point taken. you are correct. striking away from the majority, on almost any issue, will get you labeled as something negative. however, the way in which you 'strike away' from the majority plays a big role in that. if the entire world thinks is relatively OK to be gay and you differ from them by protesting at funerals of gay people, or going on tv and making wide sweeping generalizations about the "souls" of homosexuals, then well, don't be surprised if you're labeled intolerant. even if you don't do these things, yet still advocate for the position of those that do, you're probably going to get the label. guilt by association is a b****. it may not be fair, or right, but to have the position that it shouldn't happen - you shouldn't be labeled along with others - is being naieve, imo. i didn't indicate that. if you misunderstood, i apologize. when i say intolerance i'm going by the dictionary here: 2: unwillingness to recognize and respect differences in opinions or beliefs (keywords recognize and respect, not recognize and criticize, not recognize and try to convert, not recognize and disregard. recognize and respect) i'd like to see some significant change as well. though i'm sure you and i (as would others) differ on what that change should be, feel confident in knowing that i'm not out there preaching anarchy, chaos, pi$$ing on your neighbor. but aren't you intolerant if you demand change based on your belief structure, by those who do not endorse your beliefs? are you able to agree to disagree and move on? seems to me, the deeper your convictions, the closer you hold your religious beliefs, the less likely you are to be open to alternatives and comprimises. you end up beleving it should *only* be *one way* and *one way* only. this ends up neglegcting the simple truth that life is complex and full of variety. we can not all be the same. i'd just call that 'being observant'. seriously. if you thought otherwise (i.e. the world is a wonderful place full of lillies and dandelions) i'd be worried shirley and fred agree with you. they believe they are doing the same kind of work you are. work they *must* do to save us all. i doubt very seriously you would ever attempt any of the nonsense that the phelps pull on regular basis. for these reasons, i'm sure any activity you choose to bring about this positive change will be far more successful than anything the phelps will ever attempt. and therein lies the issue, or at least the issue i choose to focus on: the 'deeply religious' like fred and shirley and others does much to negate this love and compassion you obviously wish to spread. for all the good works that are done in the name of religion, there is hate and intolerance spread at the *exact* same time. with one hand we see people building homes, churches, schools overseas. we see people risk their own life and limb for the betterment of others. and on the other hand we see people of the same faith and conviction praising the deaths of innocents. we see leaders of religious organizations advocating the murder of national leaders. we see energetic followers of religious organizations protesting children of gay parents. what am i remember? what should evidence should i base my views of 'deeply religious' individuals on? you do what you can to evaluate everyone individually (at least i hope we do) but at some point you step back and say to yourself (at least i have): the source is the same and there are problems with the source. you can either discredit the indvidual, in the case of the video: shirley phelps or you can discredit the source, the Bible. i choose to do both because as i look around i see example after example of hate, intolerance and closed-mindedness being spread by those who hold 'deep religious convictions'. (which is why i'm always amazed and smiling when i see those ads for the 'Church of Christ' where gays, interracial couples, and everyone else are accepted into the church - here's this one lone church out there, with the balls to stand up and say, "I don't care if you are homosexual. To hell with what the rest of the churches are saying." Ads like this, as idiotic as this may sound, do much to help people like myself continue to remember that not all religious people are bad and that there are some deeply religous people out there who just want to *help* and are honestly there to provide compassion to those who need it most. Maybe I just need to watch more tv? lol...) Does whisky count as beer? - Homer There's no justice like angry mob justice. - Skinner Be careful. There's a limited future in low pulls - JohnMitchell

ah...so that video ruffled your feathers as well law? man when i saw that, i tell you, i just kinda blankly stared and thought WTF WTF WTF. shirley and fred think they are saviors. they think they *must* spread the word that we are all committing abominations against god. in their mind, they *have to* go out and call us all sodomy sympathsizers bound for ye old inferno. on that video, shirley gets most animated when the back and forth starts about whether or not she feels good about her actions. she gets excited, imo, because her conviction is to spread the 'good word' (i.e. hate) to everyone, even those who refuse to listen. do as colmes did and tear her down, tell her "how dare you" and she'll respond with "i must". they think they are a savior of the usa, someone to set our 'moral compass' back on the straight and narrow. as i seem to recall, she also says in that video something to the effect that "this is the way God told us it would be, everyone disbelieving the word and criticizing the believers" so here they are thinking they're a savior, recognizing everyone is against them, and then turning back to their evidence, the Bible, and pulling out the well known idea that "the believers must continue their efforts despite criticism from a vocal majority". you're left, imo, with 2 choices: - discredit the hag as a nutcase, a blasphemer, a disturbed old woman, whatever. you focus on her - discredit the evidence. go at the source. the Bible. i would assume that your Bible supporters will choose the first option - this woman can't possibly be following the Bible. she's misinterpreted, been brainwashed, and God will take care of her when it's time. some of the rest of us (including myself) look at it as another example of the hate and intolerance that exists in the minds of the deeply religious. Does whisky count as beer? - Homer There's no justice like angry mob justice. - Skinner Be careful. There's a limited future in low pulls - JohnMitchell

Yah, and how's that going for you guys? you missed my sarcasm, sorry ;) i am, by no means, a fan of our bogus 'war on drugs'. i'm just sayin, they can't throw $ and manpower at the problem the way we can. that's all. not trying to indicate that our strategy is working or not, just sayin they can't adopt it - it just won't work in their situation. Does whisky count as beer? - Homer There's no justice like angry mob justice. - Skinner Be careful. There's a limited future in low pulls - JohnMitchell

Fair enough. Human decency says we have to provide shelter from elements (not luxury), adequate nutricious food (not tasty or even a variety). Put him in solitary in a room that is body temperature, white light, no windows or contact with other humans. No reading or TV or internet. He can spend his remaining years eating the same bland meal (some type of nutrition paste like baby food) with as much water as he requires. He can spend those years in silence staring at 4 white walls and hearing nothing. Richards already on that one Rich. check out that article I linked to. it's from '02. he's been stuck in a $hit hole that mimick's your idea for quite awhile. Does whisky count as beer? - Homer There's no justice like angry mob justice. - Skinner Be careful. There's a limited future in low pulls - JohnMitchell